Positive Proof The Catholic Church Is The Only True Church

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“For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”

Either Paul didn’t know Mary was sinless, or this statement is simply untrue. Either way, Paul would have to be mistaken, which is hard to reconcile with him being an inspired, Spirit-guided writer.

The one exception to this passage is, of course, Jesus Christ, but that is because he IS God. Mary is not. There’s no Biblical way to justify her getting an exception no matter how special she was in God’s plan.
Quote= onenow1 God is the greatest Doctor of all creation He can prevent sin in anyone he pleases.Do you believe Jesus Christ had no sin ?

Luke 1:
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6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in [ALL] the commandments and ordinances of the Lord Blameless]. 🤷

46 And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord.
How does someone soul spirit]>> Magnify the Lord with sin in their life ?

Peace, onenow1, :coffee:
 
“For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”

Either Paul didn’t know Mary was sinless, or this statement is simply untrue. Either way, Paul would have to be mistaken, which is hard to reconcile with him being an inspired, Spirit-guided writer.

The one exception to this passage is, of course, Jesus Christ, but that is because he IS God. Mary is not. There’s no Biblical way to justify her getting an exception no matter how special she was in God’s plan.
It appears that this thread has drifted to the topic of Immaculate Conception. Who am I to argue ? I’ll go with it and we can discuss this.

The theology behind the immaculate conception is very deep, and ultimately testifies to the fact that Jesus is God, God is holy. Too many people infer that the immaculate conception inherently implies that Mary was sinless and did not need a savior. This is simply not true. Let’s start by going over what the declaration of the immaculate conception actually says. The declaration on the immaculate conception says that Mary was born without the stain of origiinal sin, so that she would be fit to give birth to Christ. The Church declares that she was saved from original sin by a special grace of God that applied the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus passion to Mary specifically at the moment of her conception. The Church has always upheld that all humans (Mary included) are only saved through the passion of Christ. But since the sacrifice of Jesus is transcendent of time and space, it was applied to Mary to cleanse her of the original sin she would otherwise have been born with. This is consistent with the concept of holiness as had been revealed to the Jews, for God is so holy He can not be in the presence of sin. The Jewish priests who entered the sanctuary of the temple had to wear a rope on themselves in the case they entered God’s physical presence with sin on their conscience, because it would surely cause their death. Nothing unholy or imperfect can be in the physical presence of God, and Mary was to conceive by the Holy Spirit. Scripturally, this presents a real problem, because the Holy Spirit is God, and nothing imperfect can be in the physical presence of God. Biologically, Jesus’ blood flowed through Mary, and Mary’s blood flowed through Jesus. In order to be the sacrificial lamb, Jesus had to be “unblemished”. There is no way Jesus could have remained unblemished if during gestation his blood was tainted with the human condition of original sin. We as Christians are made immaculate and perfected by Christ’s sacrifice, all we have to do is accept the gift of salvation He acquired for us and wants us all to have.

I am now going to comment outside of offical Church teaching…Doesn’t it stand to reason that Mary’s consent to God’s will to give birth to Jesus is more than ample acceptance of Jesus ? And, is it not possible that God applied that sacrifice retroactively to the point of her conception because it was necessary for the reasons I have already outlined? I am not a brilliant theologian, and would readily admit that my assertion could be completely preposterous, but Luke tells us “With God, NOTHING is impossible” (emphasis mine).

Luke 1:28 is a very telling passage, if you pay attention to the wording very carefully. “Hail, full of grace…” How many other times in Scripture is a human greeted from an angel with the word “hail” ? Furthermore, all grace comes from Christ. Surely the angel Gabriel knew what he was talking about when he said this. Where could this grace have come from? The answer, of course, is from Christ, but Christ had yet to even be conceived.

In light of the totality of Scripture and God’s revelation to the Israelites, the Immaculate Conception is not near so ridiculous and unfounded as it seems through the lens of 20th century reformation based theology. It speaks not of Mary, but ultimately, of the nature of Jesus as God and as the Christ.
 
Originally Posted by Shai22
To Joshua
To say that GOD positioned Mary to be free of sin, is saying that HE took her free will from her, which is something HE wouldn’t do. The reason being is then people would be able to say that GOD forced her and this is not the case, she willingly accepted to give birth to Jesus.
This is not true. Eve had no original sin, but she sinned.

Mary, as the new Eve, was free to sin, but chose not to.
 
I am now going to comment outside of offical Church teaching…Doesn’t it stand to reason that Mary’s consent to God’s will to give birth to Jesus is more than ample acceptance of Jesus ? And, is it not possible that God applied that sacrifice retroactively to the point of her conception because it was necessary for the reasons I have already outlined? I am not a brilliant theologian, and would readily admit that my assertion could be completely preposterous, but Luke tells us “With God, NOTHING is impossible” (emphasis mine).

.
I have a theory of my own that is not part of Catholic doctrine, but not necessarily contradictory.

When a female child is born, she already has all the eggs she will ever release inside here. This means that the egg that was to become Jesus was already in Mary at her birth, and his creation began at her conception.

What do you think?
 
Peter is not mentioned in my bible.

I see this as an endorsement of the Catholic Church.

Division is unacceptable.

Paul also says that the pillar and foundation of truth is the church.
The Bible that I read from does say Peter. It is a “Good News Bible”, Catholic study edition, Imprimatur by Archbishop John Whealon. What Bible are you reading from?

I see this as a direction from one of Christ’s Apostles not to divide the Body of Christ by saying that you follow anyone of the Apostle, but instead say that you follow Christ. All Christians or Catholics believe in Christ in one way or the other through the Apostles, including our Protestant brothers and sisters!

It’s interesting that in Revelation Jesus addresses seven different churches. I wonder which on Paul was refering to.
 
My problem is developing one of those dogmas, however, to such an extent that it is the test of one’s Christianity.
I was intrigued by this statement. Please explain what you mean by this in a little more detail.
 
I have a theory of my own that is not part of Catholic doctrine, but not necessarily contradictory.

When a female child is born, she already has all the eggs she will ever release inside here. This means that the egg that was to become Jesus was already in Mary at her birth, and his creation began at her conception.

What do you think?
Personally, I think it is a natural extension of my reasoning, and makes perfect sense given that Jesus was to be the Christ. This is all the more reason that Mary would have needed to be preservedfrom the stain of original sin by God. I would offer a minor correction; His human existence began at her conception, not His creation, for He is God. I know that you know the difference, but it is none the less an important distinction.
 
Matthew 16:18 was misinterpreted.

Matthew 16:17-18 Is speaking about TRUTH, Jesus called Peter a rock, (solid) because Peter was solid in the Truth.

Jesus said he will build his church on solid truth. He didn’t say it would Catholic, Judaism, Islamic or any other church. All he said was that he will build his church on solid truth.

Shai22
But through the ages that Church has been named the “Catholic Church”
 
Personally, I think it is a natural extension of my reasoning, and makes perfect sense given that Jesus was to be the Christ. This is all the more reason that Mary would have needed to be preservedfrom the stain of original sin by God. I would offer a minor correction; His human existence began at her conception, not His creation, for He is God. I know that you know the difference, but it is none the less an important distinction.
Good point. I should make that clear if I bring this up again.
 
Catholics believe in a tradition, and not from the teachings of GOD or Jesus Christ. This I agree with. However, Mary was a human being as all are who is born, there is no scripture to support that she was free from the sin of her ancestors. No human being is.
This is not accurate. Catholics believe in Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition is the teaching of the faith as given to the Apostles by Christ. These teachings have been preserved by the succession of bishops, which can trace their lineage back to the original twelve apostles. The magisterium of the Catholic Church (the official teaching body of the Church, which is comprised of all validly ordained bishops) is not allowed to change these teachings. They remain as they were received by the apostles from Jesus Himself, unchanged for 2000 years. The Tradition that the Catholic Church appeals to IS the teachings of God as presented to teh apostles directly from Jesus.
 
We were having a really good discussion here, and the thread just died. Did everybody pick up their toys and go home?
 
Quote= onenow1 God is the greatest Doctor of all creation He can prevent sin in anyone he pleases.Do you believe Jesus Christ had no sin ?

Luke 1:
.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in [ALL] the commandments and ordinances of the Lord Blameless]. 🤷

46 And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord.
How does someone soul spirit]>> Magnify the Lord with sin in their life ?

Peace, onenow1, :coffee:
Well, the first passage is about Mary AND Joseph. So, anything you conclude about Mary from that passage you would also have to conclude about Joseph, which, I’m guessing that many people upheld the legal ordinances of the Old Testament. Paul says of himself that in regards to legalistic righteousness, he was blameless (under the law), but that certainly doesn’t mean he was without sin (persecuting the church).

David was a man after God’s own heart. (1 Samuel 13:13-14)

David says himself: I have been blameless before him and have kept myself from sin. (2 Samuel 22:24).

And yet, he certainly sinned later in his life, quite a bit I might add. Not that I am accusing Mary of anything of this sort, but this is only to illustrate that a statement of Scripture about a person’s disposition toward sin CAN CHANGE.

I’d have to disagree with your reasoning.
 
I was intrigued by this statement. Please explain what you mean by this in a little more detail.
Happy Monday. I responded to your PM, and I’ll respond to your lengthier post shortly.

What I mean is that we (and many other “protestant” denominations) have many “traditions” in my own church. Most of these “traditions” have little, if any, basis in the Bible. Let’s take the mainline Church of Christ denomination’s (to which my church is closely related) demand that instrumental music not be used in worship services. There is no biblical basis for doing this, yet anyone who does otherwise is condemned. The Church of Christ, historically, split into two denominations over this (another issue altogether).

So, what I mean is, the use of instrumental music in worship service actually became a litmus test for one’s Christianity, which is totally ridiculous. Use of instrumental music is a personal preference and a matter of opinion, not a salvation issue (much akin to prohibition of alcohol in some denominations).
 
It appears that this thread has drifted to the topic of Immaculate Conception. Who am I to argue ? I’ll go with it and we can discuss this.
Sorry, not trying to change subjects, but it just came to mind as one subject that keeps me away from “The Only True Church.” 😉
The theology behind the immaculate conception is very deep, and ultimately testifies to the fact that Jesus is God, God is holy. Too many people infer that the immaculate conception inherently implies that Mary was sinless and did not need a savior. This is simply not true. Let’s start by going over what the declaration of the immaculate conception actually says. The declaration on the immaculate conception says that Mary was born without the stain of origiinal sin, so that she would be fit to give birth to Christ. The Church declares that she was saved from original sin by a special grace of God that applied the redemptive sacrifice of Jesus passion to Mary specifically at the moment of her conception. The Church has always upheld that all humans (Mary included) are only saved through the passion of Christ. But since the sacrifice of Jesus is transcendent of time and space, it was applied to Mary to cleanse her of the original sin she would otherwise have been born with. This is consistent with the concept of holiness as had been revealed to the Jews, for God is so holy He can not be in the presence of sin. The Jewish priests who entered the sanctuary of the temple had to wear a rope on themselves in the case they entered God’s physical presence with sin on their conscience, because it would surely cause their death. Nothing unholy or imperfect can be in the physical presence of God, and Mary was to conceive by the Holy Spirit. Scripturally, this presents a real problem, because the Holy Spirit is God, and nothing imperfect can be in the physical presence of God. Biologically, Jesus’ blood flowed through Mary, and Mary’s blood flowed through Jesus. In order to be the sacrificial lamb, Jesus had to be “unblemished”. There is no way Jesus could have remained unblemished if during gestation his blood was tainted with the human condition of original sin. We as Christians are made immaculate and perfected by Christ’s sacrifice, all we have to do is accept the gift of salvation He acquired for us and wants us all to have.
Your argument sounds pretty reasonable, but I have a couple problems with it. Jesus drank from the same cup as Judas. Is that not being in the presence of sin? Jesus was continually surrounded by sin during his earthly existence, so I would challenge the notion that Mary had to be sinless to keep Jesus “separate,” although admittedly, comparing drinking the same cup to having blood flow through you is a bit of a stretch. I’ll give you that. However, I wasn’t referring only to Mary’s freedom from Original Sin, but her lack of actual sin.

BUT, I suppose if I accept your argument that Mary was free from Original Sin, because it is a pretty good one, and it is Original Sin that gives men the proclivity to sin, then it is not much of a stretch to say Mary could have resisted sin her whole life, if she was born, essentially, in the state that Adam and Eve were.

There is still the problem of Paul’s very explicit statement that “all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God.” How could that apply to Mary if she was free from Original and Actual sin?
I am now going to comment outside of offical Church teaching…Doesn’t it stand to reason that Mary’s consent to God’s will to give birth to Jesus is more than ample acceptance of Jesus ? And, is it not possible that God applied that sacrifice retroactively to the point of her conception because it was necessary for the reasons I have already outlined? I am not a brilliant theologian, and would readily admit that my assertion could be completely preposterous, but Luke tells us “With God, NOTHING is impossible” (emphasis mine).
Christ’s sacrifice was applied retroactively to those living under the Old Covenant, so I suppose this is a reasonable claim.
Luke 1:28 is a very telling passage, if you pay attention to the wording very carefully. “Hail, full of grace…” How many other times in Scripture is a human greeted from an angel with the word “hail” ? Furthermore, all grace comes from Christ. Surely the angel Gabriel knew what he was talking about when he said this. Where could this grace have come from? The answer, of course, is from Christ, but Christ had yet to even be conceived.
Had to look it up, but I think this is a pretty open for interpretation type of passage as to what, exactly, the angel meant by “Hail Mary, full of Grace…” I will give you that this is a unique situation.
In light of the totality of Scripture and God’s revelation to the Israelites, the Immaculate Conception is not near so ridiculous and unfounded as it seems through the lens of 20th century reformation based theology. It speaks not of Mary, but ultimately, of the nature of Jesus as God and as the Christ.
Ok. Your argument is pretty convincing, except for the couple of objections I raised above. I’d like to hear your thoughts on those objections.
 
This is not accurate. Catholics believe in Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition is the teaching of the faith as given to the Apostles by Christ. These teachings have been preserved by the succession of bishops, which can trace their lineage back to the original twelve apostles. The magisterium of the Catholic Church (the official teaching body of the Church, which is comprised of all validly ordained bishops) is not allowed to change these teachings. They remain as they were received by the apostles from Jesus Himself, unchanged for 2000 years. The Tradition that the Catholic Church appeals to IS the teachings of God as presented to teh apostles directly from Jesus.
They received that tradition of some version of “immaculate conception” from a non-canonical writing, if I recall? And, I believe, from a supposed Marian apparition.

Hardly “sacred tradition.”
 
Luke 1:28 is a very telling passage, if you pay attention to the wording very carefully. “Hail, full of grace…” How many other times in Scripture is a human greeted from an angel with the word “hail” ? Furthermore, all grace comes from Christ. Surely the angel Gabriel knew what he was talking about when he said this. Where could this grace have come from? The answer, of course, is from Christ, but Christ had yet to even be conceived.
What is so telling about this? “Hail”- that is a kind of salutation, which would now be considered anachronistic in modern English.
Were you expecting the angel of God to be less cordial or formal? “Yo, sup Mary.” “Hey lady, it’s your lucky day?” Obviously not.

“Full of Grace”- of COURSE Mary is full of grace- for Pete’s sake, she is about to give birth to the Son of God, the Messiah!! What could be more graceful than to have this epochal honor. Nothing could match it for a mortal.

You are really stretching the use of the passage past its intention.
 
This is why I find fault in many Roman Catholic arguments- often they are based on inferences of Scripture or non-canonical texts or ghostly appearances.
 
I believe absolutely and without a doubt that the Catholic Church is founded on God and the gospel of Jesus, and not merely a concept of “Ecclesial institution”. As soon as someone prooves otherwise, I will leave the Catholic Church. Just so you know, I am a “revert”, and it was my intense scrutinization of Scripture and Apostolic Christianity that brought me back to Catholicism. When I actually started looking for answers, instead of presupposing that I knew all the answers, I was amazed at how much of the Catholic Church made sense in a way that no other Church did. I mean to imply nothing about anyone’s earnest search for Truth; I simply offer that to say that my search for Truth led me BACK to the Catholic Church that I doubted and, at a point in time, even opposed as a mere “Ecclesial institution”.
I believe Jesus intended to found A Catholic Church, but I don’t find that in the Church of Rome. I find it to have far exceeded what Christ intended. It’s often turned the Humble Gallilean into the Imperial Warlord. Doctrines extraordinaire, and extra-biblical-aire.
 
Hi, ckempston

Quote:
Originally Posted by onenow1
Quote= onenow1 God is the greatest Doctor of all creation He can prevent sin in anyone he pleases.Do you believe Jesus Christ had no sin ?

Luke 1:
.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in [ALL] the commandments and ordinances of the Lord Blameless].

=ckempston, Well, the first passage is about Mary AND Joseph. :nope: So, anything you conclude about Mary from that passage you would also have to conclude about Joseph, which, I’m guessing that many people upheld the legal ordinances of the Old Testament.

=onenow1, This passage verse 6, is about Elizeabeth and Zechariah,not Joseph and Mary. By the way I personally believe John the Baptist was indeed free of sin also.

46 And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord.
How does someone soul spirit]>> Magnify the Lord with sin in their life ?

=onenow1, and your response to verse 46 is??

Since scripture is surely the word of God, verse 46, is no less so, and as I see it you place St. Paul in a higher position then God.

Proof positive of the Catholic Church being the one true Church is,not being able to find any other church there in antiquity, of course with the exception of the Orthodox, who do indeed have Apostolic Orders.

Peace, onenow1,🙂
 
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