Positive proof the Invisible, non-Catholic Christian Church is right?

[CHESTERTONRULES]

No. The Bible’s pattern is of a plurality of elders. It says bishops

Phl 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

It is a lot more complicated than that. You can read this article to see the complexity of the situation
I do not agree with its conclusions but it starts to address it

Catholic writers agree in recognized the Apostolic origin of the episcopate, but are much divided as to the meaning of the terms which designate the hierarchy in the New Testament writings and the Apostolic Fathers. One may even ask if originally these terms had a clearly defined significance (Bruders, Die Verfassung der Kirche bis zum Jahre 175, Mainz, 1904). Nor is there greater unanimity when an attempt is made to explain why some churches are found without presbyters, others without bishops, others again where the heads of the community are called sometimes bishops, sometimes presbyters. This disagreement increases when the question comes up as to the interpretation of the terms which designate other personages exercising a certain fixed authority in the early Christian communities. The following facts may be regarded as fully established:

To some extent, in this early period, the words bishop and priest episkopos and presbyteros) are synonymous (See the article: APOSTOLIC COLLEGE.)
These terms may designate either simple priests (A. Michiels, Les origines de l’épiscopat. Louvain, 1900, 218 sqq.) or bishops possessing the full powers of their order. (Batiffol. Etudes d’histoire et de théologie positive, Paris, 1902, 266 sqq.: Duchesne, Histoire ancienne de l’église. Paris. 1906, 94.)
In each Community the authority may originally have belonged to college or presbyter-bishops. This does not mean that the episcopate, in the actual sense of the term, may have been plural, because in each church the college or presbyter-bishops did not exercise an independent supreme power; it was subject to the Apostles or to their delegates. The latter were bishops in the actual sense of the term, but they did not possess fixed sees nor had they a special title (Batiffol, 270) Since they were essentially itinerant, they confided to the care of some of the better educated and highly respected neophytes the fixed necessary functions relating to the daily life of the community.
newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm

Nothing here changes the point.

The apostles appointed successors, who in turn appointed successors.

You can’t just tack up a sign and claim to be a successor of the apostles.

Bishops and deacons are not self appointed.

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make. Am I missing something?

 

[jmcrae]

The plan after they fall “asleep”, or pass away, is that “men of repute” by a church wide vote, or consent, will take over! No one is appointed. The whole church, which is a local body, gets to decide.

No. The “whole Church” is just that - the whole Church. Not just the local parish or Diocese, but every single person in those days who was in union with the Apostles and their successors.

Since such a large number of people were not able to make such decisions in a timely manner - it became absolutely unwieldy to send out the ballots to every Christian in Christendom, and then have them returned safely without some of them getting lost or being spoiled - so the Pope made the decision on behalf of the people, and laid hands on those who were to be ordained.

To this day, it is still the Pope who appoints our Bishops, on our behalf.

 

[Rightlydivide]

No. The “whole Church” is just that - the whole Church. Not just the local parish or Diocese, but every single person in those days who was in union with the Apostles and their successors.

Since such a large number of people were not able to make such decisions in a timely manner - it became absolutely unwieldy to send out the ballots to every Christian in Christendom, and then have them returned safely without some of them getting lost or being spoiled - so the Pope made the decision on behalf of the people, and laid hands on those who were to be ordained.

To this day, it is still the Pope who appoints our Bishops, on our behalf.

Ballots? Pope made decision and then laid hands on them? Where did you get that?

 

[jmcrae]

Ballots? Pope made decision and then laid hands on them? Where did you get that?

St. Ambrose was elected Bishop by ballot, remember? By every member of the whole Church throughout the known world; not just the members of his local Diocese. And then he was baptized, Confirmed, given First Holy Communion, and Ordained by means of the laying on of hands, all on the same day, by the Pope, as you’ll no doubt recall - because he wasn’t even a Christian, yet, at the time of his election. (St. Augustine recounts the story in his Confessions, because it was St. Ambrose who baptized, confirmed and gave First Holy Communion to St. Augustine.)

But after that period of time, it became unwieldy to elect Bishops in that fashion, which is why they started having the Pope, who was already the main representative of the Church to the world, to simply appoint and ordain the men that he, in consultation with the Holy Spirit, deemed worthy of that office.

 

[Rightlydivide]

St. Ambrose was elected Bishop by ballot, remember? By every member of the whole Church throughout the known world; not just the members of his local Diocese. And then he was baptized, Confirmed, given First Holy Communion, and Ordained by means of the laying on of hands, all on the same day, by the Pope, as you’ll no doubt recall - because he wasn’t even a Christian, yet, at the time of his election. (St. Augustine recounts the story in his Confessions, because it was St. Ambrose who baptized, confirmed and gave First Holy Communion to St. Augustine.)

But after that period of time, it became unwieldy to elect Bishops in that fashion, which is why they started having the Pope, who was already the main representative of the Church to the world, to simply appoint and ordain the men that he, in consultation with the Holy Spirit, deemed worthy of that office.

No. The entire church throughout the known world did not vote on Ambrose as Bishop. The earliest bishops and presbyters were chosen by their local church. Eventually we find evidenct that churches switiched to a monarchial bishop but bishops were never elected by worldwide vote. You are seeming to say that hundreds of bishops were chosen by everyone.
You cannot provide proof of this belief because it never occured.

 

[jmcrae]

No. The entire church throughout the known world did not vote on Ambrose as Bishop. The earliest bishops and presbyters were chosen by their local church. Eventually we find evidenct that churches switiched to a monarchial bishop but bishops were never elected by worldwide vote. You are seeming to say that hundreds of bishops were chosen by everyone.
You cannot provide proof of this belief because it never occured.

There weren’t “hundreds” at that time - that’s my point. When it got to be several dozens, they moved to Papal appointments instead of elections.

 

[Rightlydivide]

There weren’t “hundreds” at that time - that’s my point. When it got to be several dozens, they moved to Papal appointments instead of elections.

newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm
Have you ever read this?

 

[jlhargus]

As a Catholic convert from a non-denominational fundamentalist Bible Church, this is my Scriptural understanding of Apostolic secession and the Catholic Church. I used the KJV and for emphases added the CAPITAL WORDS.

Scripture indicates, to be a valid minister one must be SENT, [Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT? Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that HE went out into a mountain to pray, and CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER to God. 13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and OF THEM HE CHOSE TWELVE, whom also he NAMED APOSTLES; JN 17:18 As you have SENT me into the world I also SENT them into the world 20 I do not pray for these alone but for those who will BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD 21 THAT THEY ALL MY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME.] Christ is praying for one specific visible sent group the Apostles Fellowship, that hearing their word and being one in fellowship, the world may believe the Father sent him. I don’t think Christ meant, he would only be with that fellowship and it would only be one, just while the apostles were alive, but to the end of the world. [Mt 28:16 the eleven disciples 18 Jesus spoke to THEM All power is given to me in heaven and in earth 19 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 TEACHING to observe ALL things whatever I have COMMANDED you I AM WITH YOU always even TO THE END.] The great commission to the Church, the apostles fellowship. Christ to whom all power in heaven and earth is given, sent the apostles to TEACH ALL to observe what he taught, they were to go to all nations. Only the apostles were sent to teach all nations, with the authority of Christ. Christ promised to be with them till the end of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end, but their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop till the end.

[LK 22:29 I appoint you A KINGDOM as my Father has appointed me 30 That you may eat and drink AT MY TABLE IN MY KINGDOM and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel 31 SIMON Satan has desired to have you 32 I have prayed for you that YOUR FAITH FAIL NOT when you are converted, STRENGTHEN YOUR BRETHREN.] When Peter is converted his faith will never fail, he is to strengthen all the brethren as Universal Pastor. Christ said Satan wanted to sift all the apostles (you plural) as wheat, but Christ prayed that only (you singular) Peter’s faith fail not, when converted , this was said in the presents of the other apostles. Christ promised Peter’s faith alone would not fail, implying all must be in union and agree with the faith of Peter. Those not in union with Peter’s faith even though they have apostolic secession can teach error. My Bishop or any number of Bishops can teach error if not in union and agreement on faith and morals, with the successor of Peter.

[ACTS 2:41 they that RECEIVED HIS WORD WERE BAPTIZED 42 THEY CONTINUED STEDFASTLY in the APOSTLES DOCTRINE FELLOWSHIP in BREAKING BREAD and in PRAYERS. 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS Christ 10 I appeal to you BRETHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and the same judgment.] One fellowship no matter where it is located in the world. [Lk 24:48 you are witnesses of these things 49 I SEND the promise of my Father upon you WAIT in Jerusalem TILL YOU ARE ENDUED WITH POWER FROM ON HIGH. Jn 16:13 When THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH comes HE WILL GUIDE YOU into ALL the TRUTH Jn 14:26 the Holy Spirit HE SHALL TEACH YOU ALL things and BRING ALL things TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE WHATEVER I HAVE SAID TO YOU.] Christ is speaking to the Apostlic Fellowship, who will be endued with power from on high, by whom the Church will be guided into all truth and teach all things whatsoever Christ said, through secessors, till the end of the world.

 

[jlhargus]

[2 TIM 1:6 …stir up the GIFT OF GOD IN YOU BY THE PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS 7 God has GIVEN US THE SPIRIT OF POWER. TITUS 1:5 For this I left you in Crete that you should set in order …and ORDAIN ELDERS in EVERY CITY AS I APPOINTED YOU. ACTS 14:23 when they had ORDAINED elders IN EVERY CHURCH and prayed with fasting they commended them to the Lord on whom they believed. ACTS 20:28 Take heed of yourself, and the flock over which the HOLY SPIRIT has MADE you overseers to feed the church of God purchased with his own blood, 1 TIM 5:17 Let the elders that RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOUR especially they who labour in the WORD AND DOCTRINE. 1 TIM 4:13 Till I come attend to READING to EXHORTATION to DOCTRINE 14 Do not neglect THE GIFT in you GIVEN you by prophecy WITH THE LAYING ON OF the HANDS of the presbytery 16 TAKE HEED to yourself to THE DOCTRINE continue in them for in doing this you shalt both SAVE yourself and THOSE WHO HEAR YOU.] I cannot find a VALID minister in the New Covenant who was not appointed and SENT directly by Christ including Paul, or SENT by laying on of hands in the apostolic line, either by an apostle or one they ordained. Except false teachers, who may even have been ordaind by laying on of hands, but not SENT by the FELLOWSHIP. They go out on their own authority, I have no doubt they used and thought scripture supported their theology. Acts15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard that CERTAIN which WENT OUT FROM US have troubled you with words SUBVERTING YOUR SOULS saying Ye must be circumcised and keep the law: to whom WE GAVE NO SUCH COMMANDMENT 1Jn 4:6 We are of God Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR

The Bishops of the world in union with the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) make up the Magisterium (that teaching authority sent by Christ till the end). Their duty is to teach, sanctify and govern. Teach the Word of God, faith and morals, what we must believe and moral standards. Sanctify by preaching the Word of God and administering the sacraments, govern the Church for good order, Jn 17:21 THAT THEY MAY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you that they also may be one in us THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME

I am led by and continue steadfastly in the apostles doctrine and fellowship, in breaking of bread and in prayers, ACTS 2:42. The one sent fellowship Christ sent to teach all he commanded, Mt 28:20, as he promised to sent the Holy Spirit to lead them in all truth (not part but all) Jn 16:13. He that hears you hears me, LK 10:16. If he neglect to hear the church treat him as a heathen, MT 18:17. I do not rely on my understanding nor on that of any man, no matter how learned, who in the last analysis gives only his own opinion, although he could be right at times. I prefer the assurance of those Christ SENT to lead in all truth, not hit and miss truth. to follow those, whom Christ has set over me, who have the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in an unbroken line, to recall all Christ has taught, those to whom Christ promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against, Mt 16:18, the house of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth, 1 TM 3:14

I followed the brothers from Palestine to Rome, two of the greatest, Peter and Paul who were both martyred in Rome. The successor of Peter is the bishop of Rome, and holds the keys of the Davidic kingdom a type or foreshadowing of the regenerated and restored spiritual kingdom of Israel in the new covenant (Mt 19:28). Christ the Son of David is king in David’s line, who will build a house for God, (2Sam 7:12-14). Peter is the first minister (prime minister) [Isa22:19 I will drive you from your station 20 I will call my servant Eliakim 21 I will commit your government to his hand he shall be a father to the people of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah 22 And the key of the house of David will I lay on his shoulder so he shall open and none shall shut he shall shut and none shall open] Eliakim will be the new Prime Minster and called father of Jerusalem, in the Davidic Kingdom, he will succeed Shebna. So in the restored Kingdom of David, Peter will be Prime Minister and called father=pope in the new Jerusalem=Church. The keys indicate the holder has authority over the other royal ministers (or apostles) as they do not receive keys, also indicates the head office has successors. When the office is vacant it is filled by the King in David’s line, who is Christ, with another by giving of the keys. Jesus alluded to this passage when giving the keys to Peter, Mt 16. Incidentally if Christ is King in David’s line, his mother, which all generations will call blessed, is Gebirah (Queen Mother) 1Kings 2:19. From Solomon the son of David, who built a house for God, there was an office of queen mother in the Dividic Kingdom, the type and foreshadowing of the new Kingdom. The king Christ, the Son of David, is building a habitaion for God of living stones.

 

[jlhargus]

NDfan: If having a true Christian church requires this succession you talk about or laying on of hands, then please tell me why Christ is so present in our church or any other non-Roman Catholic church? If we truly are not a valid Christian church then Christ would not be present at all correct?

JL: [Mk 9:38 And JOHN answered him SAYING MASTER we saw one casting out devils in thy name and HE FOLLOWETH NOT US and WE FORBAD HIM because HE FOLLOWETH NOT US 39 But JESUS SAID FORBID HIM NOT for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name that can lightly speak evil of me 40 For he that is not against US is on OUR PART.] The Holy Spirit works in denominations outside the Apostles Fellowship. Uniting them to that fellowship in a spiritural way.

Merry Christmas and happy new year, to all.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

NDfan: If having a true Christian church requires this succession you talk about or laying on of hands, then please tell me why Christ is so present in our church or any other non-Roman Catholic church? If we truly are not a valid Christian church then Christ would not be present at all correct?

JL: [Mk 9:38 And JOHN answered him SAYING MASTER we saw one casting out devils in thy name and HE FOLLOWETH NOT US and WE FORBAD HIM because HE FOLLOWETH NOT US 39 But JESUS SAID FORBID HIM NOT for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name that can lightly speak evil of me 40 For he that is not against US is on OUR PART.] The Holy Spirit works in denominations outside the Apostles Fellowship. Uniting them to that fellowship in a spiritural way.

Merry Christmas and happy new year, to all.

I posted this on another thread, but it is applicable here.

Please read the official position of the Church on this matter:

Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271

818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[fbl9]

Go to post #7 on this thread. Click the username if you want to read that person’s other posts.

unless i missed it MarcoPolo you should offer an apology for this insinuation…if i did sorry for dragging it back up…
justasking4 and Rightlydivide are two entirely different persons.

from what i can gather then RIGHTLYDIVIDE(caps or for attention) is that you sincerely believe that only your group is indeed the church with God given authority to teach all men.
and the only eviednce you can give for this is that your group reads the bible that came from???..