Positive results of feminism ?

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Yup. Look at the current religious studies materials in a US Catholic High School.

Want a real shocker - there are several hundred married priests here in the US as well. This is less shocking to many EU Catholics who are more familiar with the Eastern Church, but it is typically a real mind bender for most US Catholics.
 
I in no way misspoke.

I can see now that the feminism I defined was indeed bad for society as a whole, and it has left lingering problems in its wake.

Just because a man cannot become pregnant should in no way separate him from women. As I wrote earlier, feminism is about a power struggle and divisiveness. It has helped to obscure true, Biblical truths about the proper roles and relationships men and women should have.

Pointing out that God is neither male or female is not relevant to the man-made mess called the National Organization of Women and the Women’s Liberation it described.

God bless,
Ed
 
Yup. Look at the current religious studies materials in a US Catholic High School.
How is that proof?
Want a real shocker - there are several hundred married priests here in the US as well.
I am aware and that is no shocker at all.
This is less shocking to many EU Catholics who are more familiar with the Eastern Church, but it is typically a real mind bender for most US Catholics.
How does that address your position on priestesses in so called Pauline Christianity or the heirarchy only going back to feudal times?
 
No, we don’t yet have across-the-board equal pay for equal work, but as I said, that is one of the goals of (moderate) feminism that, from a social justice standpoint, is worthy of support.

My son, and my priest, would look at me and say, "???". 🙂

I miss your point, there, ed.
You did? How would you react? I am not, and have never mentioned, what you call moderate feminism. It seems too many here imply that NOW did something good. I have yet to find out what that is.

God bless,
Ed
 
I in no way misspoke.

I can see now that the feminism I defined was indeed bad for society as a whole, and it has left lingering problems in its wake.

Just because a man cannot become pregnant should in no way separate him from women. As I wrote earlier, feminism is about a power struggle and divisiveness. It has helped to obscure true, Biblical truths about the proper roles and relationships men and women should have.

Pointing out that God is neither male or female is not relevant to the man-made mess called the National Organization of Women and the Women’s Liberation it described.

God bless,
Ed
As I said: "Surely you misspoke and you wish to concede as much. There is NO theology that describes God the Father as “a man.” I am certain you misspoke - or you cling to an untruth.

As for feminism, I think it’s a big mistake to identify it with the National Organization of Women, a group that has done endless harm to women, children, men and the nation. However, other groups exist. You might want to look into Feminists for Life.

Please, also consider YOUR singular definition of God the Father as “a man.” Jesus Christ came to us as God and man. If you want to define Members of the Blessed Trinity as Individuals, then I remind you again that the Father NEVER defined Himself as “a man.” You can’t invent Theology to suit a personal argument.
 
How is that proof?
I thought you would prefer to read the subject from materials approved by the Church (via its local authority in the US). You appear to sometimes disagree with the Magesterium, but it is a superior source on Church teachings and history.
How does that address your position on priestesses in so called Pauline Christianity or the heirarchy only going back to feudal times?
Start with St. Paul’s epistles. Then look to the non Canonized texts that biblical scholars use for confirmation and historical context. No, you don’t have to read the much maligned Gospel of Mary, but Coptic Christian tradition and writings, which is among the oldest surviving, is particularly revealing. You could then look at what we have in terms of church and theological writings up through the 11th century. Look closely at how confession and communion was managed in convents.

The problem is that we tend to view history through modern eyes. Remeber, for a good chunk of time, entering the religoius life had a lot more to do with the order of your birth than any particular calling. Similiarly, our modern understanding of several of the Sacrements really dates from the 13th, 14th, and even 15th centuries.
 
I am also at a loss as to what hierarchy you think God designed. In Christianity, woman were priests for centuries, at least in Pauline Christianity. Our current male dominated heirarchy really dates from feudalism. An all male clergy was really the only practical way for the Church to maintain control of its massive land assets.
That strikes me as fantasy history (and I believe in women’s ordination). There is some fragmentary and ambiguous evidence that women may have been ordained as presbyters or deacons at some times and places in the early centuries (within the Catholic Church), but not enough to build an argument on. The references to “presbyteras” may well be to wives of priests (as in current Orthodox usage); the artwork that allegedly shows a woman celebrating the Eucharist is hardly clear and legible enough to support the weight put on it; and the strongest evidence that women were ordained is a prohibition against them serving at the altar (by Pope Gelasius), which may conceivably refer not even to female priests but to female altar servers.

All the unambiguous references to women serving at the altar (whether as priests, liturgical deacons, or altar servers) that I know of from the early Catholic Church are negative.

On the other hand, women clearly did serve as deacons, though probably not in a liturgical capacity–I find the conservative argument that they were not “ordained” highly unconvincing.

And what do you mean by “Pauline” Christianity? To what other kind of Christianity are you contrasting it?

Edwin
 
No. That is the heresy of Anthropomorphism.
That is a fascinating point. The Old Testament is full of anthropomorphic expressions (God “sees”, “speaks”, “walks”, etc.), but they are vague and often reflect non-human scope. Also, they don’t question God’s divine nature.

A lot of early Christian apologist writings condemn pagan religions for worshiping what are essentially magnified men, with the same flaws and passions. Assigning a specific gender would seem to fall under this same argument.
 
That strikes me as fantasy history (and I believe in women’s ordination). There is some fragmentary and ambiguous evidence that women may have been ordained as presbyters or deacons at some times and places in the early centuries (within the Catholic Church), but not enough to build an argument on.
Ordination, I would agree. But even Holy Orders must be viewed in a historical context.
On the other hand, women clearly did serve as deacons, though probably not in a liturgical capacity–I find the conservative argument that they were not “ordained” highly unconvincing.
Actually, the Church acknowledges (at least via Catholic education) that confession and communion were administered, at least to other women in religious settings.

I happen to think that women’s leadership roles diminished more as a pragmatic matter than direct male oppression by other members of the Church.
And what do you mean by “Pauline” Christianity? To what other kind of Christianity are you contrasting it?
When looking at early Christianity, we have to remember that there were several flavors. Principally Judean, Gnostic, and Pauline. Only Pauline Christianity really flourished and survives today. All are worth study, but we have to use care. For example, in Gnostic tradition, Mary Magdalene is presented as a disciple and an important leader in the early Church, actually confronting Peter on the issue of ministry to the Gentiles (an episode reported in several works from the Nag Hammadi library such as the Gospel of Thomas, Pistis Sophia, etc.)

But, while a Gnostic work like the Gospel of Philip places Mary as first among disciples, Hippolytus, whose work also dates from the 3rd century, proposed that Mary was the sinner who annoints Jesus’ feet. Most scholars now conclude that the contrast itself is indicitive of divisions, at least in the 2nd and 3rd century Church. With one group putting emphasis on Mary and downplaying Peter and Paul, the other doing the opposite.

My own guess is that Mary was undoubtedly an important figure (hence rightfully a Saint) and that the original friction was between Peter/Andrew and Paul/Mary. Canonized or not, there is a lot to suggest that Paul viewed Mary as an equal, or near equal. As to why Mary’s role in Pauline Christianity later became downplayed, I couldn’t say. I’ve read arguments that she was confused with Mary of Egypt (4th/5th centuries), but they haven’t seemed terribly convincing.
 
As I said: "Surely you misspoke and you wish to concede as much. There is NO theology that describes God the Father as “a man.” I am certain you misspoke - or you cling to an untruth.

As for feminism, I think it’s a big mistake to identify it with the National Organization of Women, a group that has done endless harm to women, children, men and the nation. However, other groups exist. You might want to look into Feminists for Life.

Please, also consider YOUR singular definition of God the Father as “a man.” Jesus Christ came to us as God and man. If you want to define Members of the Blessed Trinity as Individuals, then I remind you again that the Father NEVER defined Himself as “a man.” You can’t invent Theology to suit a personal argument.
To this day, Gloria Steinem is identified as a “feminist icon.” Obviously, no one wishes to answer the question as I wrote it. Other feminists groups are off topic.

Also, God defining Himself as a man, and becoming flesh as a man are off topic as well, in so far as I am interested in the social justice achievements, if any, of feminism.

God bless,
Ed
 
Also, God defining Himself as a man, and becoming flesh as a man are off topic as well, in so far as I am interested in the social justice achievements, if any, of feminism.

God bless,
Ed
Hi Ed. Clarification - Are you looking for social justice achievements in the context of “good for his/her/our salvation”, or in some other context (i.e. totally sectarian)?
 
To this day, Gloria Steinem is identified as a “feminist icon.” Obviously, no one wishes to answer the question as I wrote it. Other feminists groups are off topic.
That is the problem with attempting to post rhetorical questions. It is hard to prompt people into writing the answers you want to here without making the original question too obvious…

As far as the off topic stuff goes, I have to concede that I engaged in hyperbole as well. I used the term priest when I wanted both to convey the historical fact that women’s roles in the Church have been significantly different at times and shock. But it was too much.

Deacons, undoubtedly, leaders, undoubtedly, conducting rites now reserved soley for male clergy, undoubtedly. But by no stretch priests, at least past the earliest remnants of Christianity, where the distinction was vague. I realized that I was at the edge with Fix’s response, but hoped to goad him go read.

Contarini kept me honest, and also inspired me to re-paruse some early Christian writings with the insightful anthropomorphism comment. Which also brings up another point, it is hard to get the response you want to a rhetorical question on a religious forum when heresy has to be asserted to steer the conversation… 😉
 
Again, what an odd thought. For the first millenia infanticide was the major problem confronted by the Church as it spread to gentiles. This was virtually always performed by fathers on new borns. Look at this quote from Pope Stephen V in the 9th century:

I see this quoted quite a bit on pro-life web sites as evidence that the Church has always opposed abortion, but when you read everything in context it is perhaps even more disturbing. The Pope appears to be really saying, ‘look, our teachings are that it is murder when the baby is still in the womb, of course you cannot let the fathers in your flock continue to bury their unwanted new born children alive…’

Yes, a number of feminists consider what they call “reproductive rights” important, but there is nothing to suggest that they significantly drive actual numbers. Remember, they are the most likely to use birth control. On the flip side, about 60% of all abortions in the US are procurred by woman near or below the poverty level. Over half of them already have children. Blacks and Hispanics are disproportionately over represented, which means that Christians and Catholics are disproportionately over represented.

Mary was submissive to God, but to man? Not hardly. Read her song in the Gospel. Try reading anything about Latin American biblical study, a short work like THE GOSPEL THROUGH THIRD WORLD EYES, or something like THE BIBLE OF THE OPRESSED. Both the Marys who are prominent in the Gospels are viewed, quite rightfully I think, as powerful and forceful children of God.

I am also at a loss as to what hierarchy you think God designed. In Christianity, woman were priests for centuries, at least in Pauline Christianity. Our current male dominated heirarchy really dates from feudalism. An all male clergy was really the only practical way for the Church to maintain control of its massive land assets.

Well, that is the struggle of Roman Catholicism. You either accept you are part of an apostolic Church with the Gift of Authority, or you do not. It is easy to follow teachings we already understand and support. Harder when they challenge our immediate wishes.

I find it odd that your would cite Pope Pius XI. First of all, we are talking about a 20th century Pope. Most assuredly, we had Christian marriage for the 19 centuries prior. Second, he was a highly progressive Pope. He rejected the prior Church position on a theocratic monarcy as the ideal form of government, decried both socialism and unrestrained capitalism, and took an open stance against anti-semitism. He is probably best known for “Quadragesimo Anno”. But “Costi Canubi” is not as conservative as it might seem. It is best known for reaffirming Church objections to birth control, but his view on marital roles was actually considered too liberal by many at the time. Personally, I think that his utter condemantion of eugenics is the most noteworthy aspect of the document.

Theological opinion was mixed, his was not. He immediately saw the eugenics movement, which was really based in the US, as a grave evil. For most of the world it took the Nazi application during the holocaust for the lesson to sink in.

Something I find a little disturbing is that you insist on putting your disagreemeint with your wife in the context of heresy. You don’t appear to say, ‘this is how I want you to behave’. You insist on putting your position as an issue of faith. But, as you have already acknowledged here, that argument itself is based on you rejecting the Church’s Gift of Authority and inserting your own opinion in place of the magisterium. If you cannot, yourself, submit to the teachings of the Church, why would you expect her to submit to you?
Wow, I didn’t know feminism had been around that long. Thanks for the clarification. As for not accepting Church teaching, it is my point exactly, thankyou again. Why don’t we have all of what we believe within the Catechism?

As for my wife, like I said that is between her and God. My mom use to say show me a man who can love me like Christ loves the Church and I will be submissive to him. I just say, it has to start some place.

As for Mary, God Is A Man. Now she is also the Mother of God, but at the same time she was submissive to Him. The Trinity makes this thought a little difficult but makes my point as well.
 
Boy oh boy. This was harder than I thought.

The Betty Friedan/Gloria Steinem school of feminism made men the enemy. I watched the changes that occurred as they happened. Somehow, married people in the 1950s and 1960s understood that marriage was not to be entered into lightly, that there were responsibilities and that it was a partnership. Of course, there were problems but other family members, including parents of the newlyweds, were welcome as advisors and helpers. And let’s not forget God since the priest was often an advisor before and after vows were exchanged. VOWS, not, “Hey, if it don’t work out we’ll just get a divorce.” This was a COMMITMENT.

Enter Betty Friedan, who called the family “a comfortable concentration camp,” and Gloria Steinem who said, “A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.”

And, just like politicians, they stood up and said, “Hi, I’m going to solve these problems, follow me, endorse me, let me lead you.” But they were not politicians but revolutionaries in a military sense. The enemy was defined, his demonic qualities listed and you were called to join the Army of Liberation.

Men are your oppressors! This country is run by men, businesses are run by men, even the Catholic Church is run by men! It’s wrong!! We, my revolutionary sisters, must rise up and throw off the chains of our oppression. Heck, even our clothes are designed by men to objectify us! To manipulate us! Your bras are a symbol of your oppression. Down with patriarchy! Down with men! Down with any institution that oppresses you!

Women were now taught, not just told, but taught to be victims and to regard all men as aggressors and oppressors.

This necessitated a new cultural, false identity for women. Suddenly, there were women’s studies, and women’s art and women’s culture. Anything to create the feeling of us vs. them and turn that into an institutionalized reality.

Contrast that with the Church’s clear teachings and you can see that no aspect of the Friedan/Steinem/NOW reality had anything to do with positive social change. Zero, zip, nothing.

Jesus said, “Blessed are the peacemakers…”

Now, to a few off topic points. The same feminists still talk about removing any reference to God in the Bible or the Mass as Him, He, etc., not out of any desire to be true to Church teaching but because, to them, it enables the vast Patriarchal Conspiracy that oppresses all women. No, God does not have a sex. Jesus being a man does not mean He is a man as God. However, I hope I’m making it plain that it annoys the heck out of those people to pray to a guy. I’ve seen more than a few remarks and books with titles like, God is not as smart as you think she is.

It’s great that there are women’s/feminist groups that are for the same things the Church is for, but the common, still talked about, popular view of feminism is the kind I just described.

In closing, the feminism I described was designed to tear families apart and destroy them, to promote gay relationships and turn marriage into any mix or match combination imaginable. It eroded trust among people. It was not peaceful. It harmed this country and other countries tremendously.

God bless,
Ed
 
As for my wife, like I said that is between her and God. My mom use to say show me a man who can love me like Christ loves the Church and I will be submissive to him. I just say, it has to start some place.
Ah, the Church of Mom. I thought we were talking about Catholicism.
As for Mary, God Is A Man.
Actually, no, the point has been raised that we Catholics reject that as heresy. It is how we seperated ourselves from pagan religions.

I see you skipped my point. You are criticising your wife for not being submissive, but you, yourself, have trouble submitting to the gift of authority of the Church (‘I don’t agree…’) The best leaders lead by example.

More directly, it sounds like your wife understands service. Rather it is principle bread winner, primary care giver for children, or whatever, she is apparently putting her family first. Giving up a job, income, external validation, and self respect sounds pretty much like submission to the service of others to me.

If there is a breakdown, perhaps it is in your leadership. We’ve already touched on setting an example of submission. But are you sure that your leadership is just? In other words, are you exercising your perceived right of leadership solely for service and common good of your family as a whole, or do you exercise it for yourself?

I’ve been managing lots of people for quite a few years and, in my experience, problems are seldom one sided. When I hear a manager below me complain about an employee I often find that the manager is treating his/her position as an inalianable right, when they should be viewing it as a serious responsibility not just to me, but to the people they oversee.
 
I don’t know what you want by asking this question. The Women’s Movement was around in the 20’s, the 40’s, the 1830’s, the Middle Ages in a more modest way when everyone’s expectations were lower, and earlier in some civilizations. If all you want to talk about is whether two or three recent feminist authors have directly improved any observable social injustice, then that is hard to measure. I don’t know.
But I want to ask you to let me explain something.
Imagine being a woman in Gloria Steinem’s childhood days. I’ve heard women tell of it. They say they sat, as children, and watched their mothers go through the day with tears streaming down their faces. Mothers joined for “a cup of coffee” and huddled whispering about a nameless problem. Women who were beaten by their husbands until they had nervous breakdowns were taken to “therapists” who accused them of bizarre things, said they were “playing games” and pushed them to pretend to be happy with the treatment they were living with. Women with chronic debilitating medical conditions were refused medical help, called “neurotic”, virtually a guarantee that no other doctor would want to help them.
Yes, some women need men. Some men need women. I don’t want to be enemies at all. But try to understand where the frustration was coming from, please.
🤷
 
You know, just as a POI, most of us pretty much relate to what ‘we’ have experienced. And we tend to remember more both the things that support our experience, and our beliefs, and to accept them as being ‘truthful’, correct, and the ‘normative experience’ and to look at the things which do NOT support our experience as being at best ‘rare’, or ‘misunderstood’, or at worst barefaced lies.

So let’s be careful on here, especially with the ‘anecdotal’ information. Just because our own family experiences, or our own personal worldview, or all the people that we most admire or trust, say, “This is what X (feminism) is; this is what I (or my mother, or ‘women’ have thought, felt, suffered or believed” does not make it ‘reality’, for all, for many, or even for ourselves. Even with the best of intentions, one can be honestly deceived. And nothing (with the exception of God on one hand and Satan on the other) is ‘all good’ or ‘all bad.’
 
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