Possessive and uncharitable behaviour on a courtship

[sicutincensum]

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,

I am currently facing a dilemma due what’s happening in my courtship with a very devout Catholic girl. I don’t know what to do, because rationally I believe I should break this up without delay, but when in prayer, I feel like like God is asking me to be patient and wait.

I asked her mother (as her father has already passed away) permission to court her 6 months ago. Permission was granted, and the girl also accepted my proposal. During the first months, she seemed perfect, as she is very devout, as aforementioned, and even attends the TLM and Divine Liturgy, which, for me, is a plus, and we have very similar interests, views and tastes.

However, things began to unravel some months ago, when her mother became convinced I was spying on her (using electronic devices) for no apparent reason. She forbade any contact with me. We would quickly understand the real reason behind this: her mother is incredibly possessive.

And to what extent? Well, int he past, this girl wanted to enter the religious life. So, her mother set up the condition: you cannot enter a monastery without me. So, the mother waged war against all religious congregations that did not allow herself to be with her daughter in the monastery, and was accepted (perhaps due to despair due to lack of vocations) along with her daughter in some monasteries. They were eventually expelled.

The girl, for the first time in her life (and with the advice of a priest), decided to ignore such totalitarian behaviour and decided to continue the courtship. I highly praise her for this, as she has done, and will continue to do, much sacrifice to keep up this relation.

However, something very disturbing appeared recently. Lately I have been noticing a very disturbing behaviour on the girl. She is also incredibly possessive, always fearful of my female colleagues at work, always suspecting I could be betraying her. If I don’t answer a text message within a one and an half frame I may get into trouble.

And, worst, she tends to judge very rashly, not only of me, but of everybody. She seems incapable of practicing the principle that we should always regard other’s actions in the best possible manner, and avoid judging them. An example: she recently treated someone very harshly in words for no reason, and she understood that was a mistake and was telling me the story, however, she added: “Oh, anyway… these people nowadays don’t have a conscience so she wasn’t probably hurt for what I said”.

In short, it seems the education she received is bearing its fruits. Sometimes I think I should be patient, because this is not her fault, it’s just the education she has received. But then… this is no justification. People nowadays tend to engage in a life of habitual sexual sin mainly because of their education (it’s not entirely their fault), but we know we should keep at bay from any woman/man who is unrepentant and prone to such behaviour.

Shouldn’t we, shouldn’t I, do the same, with a girl who is very pure, apparently very devout, but who seems to be uncharitable?

 

[Castello]

Sounds as if her mother is mentally ill. These things may be genetic, or, her daughter may - as you said - simply have learned to be paranoid.

I would advise the young woman to leave home, go to college away or find some other way to distance herself from her mother.

Prayers for all!

 

[joanofarc2008]

She has had very bad modeling of good female behavior which is not to excuse this behavior. You should probably talk to her about this and then if she is willing maybe find a trusted deacon and his wife you could take into confidence and maybe see if they would allow you to have some dinners, etc with them. She may be able to learn much from looking at a good relationship model.

 

[1ke]

What would the purpose of “being patient” be?

If you believe she will change, you are simply deluding yourself.

If you believe you should overlook this HUGE red flag right in front of your face and marry her any way-- you are asking for a life sentence in the penitentiary known as the self-made bed.

Say goodbye to this woman and her mother. The purpose of courtship is discernment. You have discerned that both the woman and her mother have a pattern of abusive, unstable, and mean-spirited behavior.

Don’t be deceived by the fact that she is a devout Catholic, that is not the **only **criteria by which to select a spouse.

 

[sicutincensum]

Say goodbye to this woman and her mother. The purpose of courtship is discernment. You have discerned that both the woman and her mother have a pattern of abusive, unstable, and mean-spirited behavior.

I think you’ve hit the mark, but how to do it? What do you think I should say to her? “Look, you’re uncharitable, thus we should only be friends?”. Should I point her problems? I’ve already told her what I think about her attitudes, so should I simply be general and say that we’re not compatible and thus we must move on?

 

[Leegal]

If you believe you should overlook this HUGE red flag right in front of your face and marry her any way-- you are asking for a life sentence in the penitentiary known as the self-made bed.

Say goodbye to this woman and her mother. The purpose of courtship is discernment. You have discerned that both the woman and her mother have a pattern of abusive, unstable, and mean-spirited behavior.

Don’t be deceived by the fact that she is a devout Catholic, that is not the **only **criteria by which to select a spouse.

Gotta agree here with this advice. You are not married and the behavior (and the history) is already over the top. Now imagine a lifetime of marriage where this will get progressively worse. Even worse, is this the woman you want to raise your children?

That she give the appearance of being pious is belied in her character. You might want to gently point out to her her unChristian behavior, but from my experience they don’t get it.

God Bless.

 

[nickybr38]

I think you’ve hit the mark, but how to do it? What do you think I should say to her? “Look, you’re uncharitable, thus we should only be friends?”. Should I point her problems? I’ve already told her what I think about her attitudes, so should I simply be general and say that we’re not compatible and thus we must move on?

Keep it general. Just tell her you’re not compatible and you would like to be friends but nothing more.

 

[Leegal]

I think you’ve hit the mark, but how to do it? What do you think I should say to her? “Look, you’re uncharitable, thus we should only be friends?”. Should I point her problems? I’ve already told her what I think about her attitudes, so should I simply be general and say that we’re not compatible and thus we must move on?

Sorry, I missed this. If you have already spoken to her about her behavior (and as I said before, it never seems to sink in), it’s time to cut bait and run. Yes, just explain that you don’t feel that you are compatible and you each need to date others. What you are seeing is a flaw in her nature, and that’s why we date.

God Bless you.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

I think you’ve hit the mark, but how to do it? What do you think I should say to her? “Look, you’re uncharitable, thus we should only be friends?”. Should I point her problems? I’ve already told her what I think about her attitudes, so should I simply be general and say that we’re not compatible and thus we must move on?

Absolutely. Even if you are engaged, you can break it off. Let her know that you feel you are not compatible and are not longer courting. It may also be wise to take a break in communication for awhile. She does not sound like the kind of person who will graciously move from courting to “just being friends”.

Why not find out what activites your diocese provides (if any) for young adults/singles. Try attending a few and see who you meet. Even if you don’t meet someone to date right away, you’ll likely find new friends and take your mind off this current relationship.

 

[1ke]

I think you’ve hit the mark, but how to do it? What do you think I should say to her? “Look, you’re uncharitable, thus we should only be friends?”.

'Short and sweet. No big explanations. No drawn out conversation. This type of woman will probably want all sorts of “why” and possibly get angry and want an explanation.

Simply say, “I’ve discerned that our relationship is not headed in a direction for marriage. Therefore, I wish you well in the future but will no longer be courting you.”

The end.

DO NOT engage in further discussion.

Should I point her problems?

No. This will simply devolve into her defending herself and trying to convince you that you are wrong.

You simply say, “I’ve simply discerned that our relationship has gone as far as it can. Thank you and I wish you well in the future.”

I’ve already told her what I think about her attitudes, so should I simply be general and say that we’re not compatible and thus we must move on?

Yup.

Goodbye, good luck.

 

[1ke]

Oh, and “we can be friends” is a lie of the dating culture. Women and men are not meant to be in such one-on-one friendship relationships especially after having a romantic interest in one another.

What are you going to do, “hang out”? To what end? This makes you unavailable to other women and prolongs the “hope” that you might resume your interest in her. It’s not fair to either of you.

You are not under an obligation to be “friends”. You courted, you discerned, be prepared to just move on.

 

[sicutincensum]

Oh, and “we can be friends” is a lie of the dating culture. Women and men are not meant to be in such one-on-one friendship relationships especially after having a romantic interest in one another.

What are you going to do, “hang out”? To what end? This makes you unavailable to other women and prolongs the “hope” that you might resume your interest in her. It’s not fair to either of you.

You are not under an obligation to be “friends”. You courted, you discerned, be prepared to just move on.

I think it’s not a lie, when correctly understood. I believe the major difference between a relation based on charity and a relation based on self, is that you can still care for each other, you will always care for each other. Specially if we’re talking about two Catholics, who are or should always be in communion.

But, of course, “being friends” in the sense of hanging out or being “best-friends” is highly unrealistic.

 

[nickybr38]

Oh, and “we can be friends” is a lie of the dating culture. Women and men are not meant to be in such one-on-one friendship relationships especially after having a romantic interest in one another.

What are you going to do, “hang out”? To what end? This makes you unavailable to other women and prolongs the “hope” that you might resume your interest in her. It’s not fair to either of you.

You are not under an obligation to be “friends”. You courted, you discerned, be prepared to just move on.

Well, this is true in some circumstances… I know I am friends with all of my ex-boyfriends and they have moved on to new girlfriends. I dated them and they dated me because we saw things in each other that we liked. While we were not romantically compatible we make great friends.

 

[Catholic90]

run, run, run away. Quickly.

Put the blame on yourself so she cannot get defensive. Say something like, “I have determined I am not ready for our relationship, so I must politely bow out of our courtship. I wish you well, and may God be with you.”

Short, sweet, polite, non-confrontational.

She may cry, she may beg, she may plead. Just leave.

Her family situation sounds quite toxic.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Well, this is true in some circumstances… I know I am friends with all of my ex-boyfriends and they have moved on to new girlfriends. I dated them and they dated me because we saw things in each other that we liked. While we were not romantically compatible we make great friends.

Doesn’t sound like this relationship is anywhere near as healthy. Best plan for OP is to clearly state that he’s stopping the courtship and then break off communication for awhile. If he sees her at Mass or wherever, or course he should be polite, but he doesn’t have to call and see how’s she doing, invite her to any future events, or encourage her odd behavior in anyway.

 

[chevalier]

Sounds as if her mother is mentally ill. These things may be genetic, or, her daughter may - as you said - simply have learned to be paranoid.

I would advise the young woman to leave home, go to college away or find some other way to distance herself from her mother.

Prayers for all!

Disclaimer: I’m not a psychologist. Perhaps paranoid (learnt from mother) and a defensive mechanism against admitting guilt? If guilt is used by others to humble you disproportionately or control you, you may perhaps develop a mechanism to shut off guilt or at least not admit it before others (so that they can’t use it against you). I’m guessing here but this is based on life experience.

@OP: People are sometimes more charitable when they are in a better life situation than when they are in a worse one. Especially if you’re in a need to deal with abusive people and/or manipulators, your charity may slump. You could try talking to your girlfriend and seeing if she will accept a gentle nudge (but definitely not a concentrated nagging session!) about being too hasty in judgement or too easy letting herself off the hook. Right now, I’d be surprised if your girlfriend reacted in all situations like a normal, healthy person. On the other hand, a lot of the issues might disappear if her condition were to improve (e.g. out of control of her mother’s). I remember that when I was younger, as in early twenties, I had a lot more “issues” than now, closer to thirty. People eventually outgrow their scars from childhood (or previous relationships), at least sometimes. I wouldn’t cross anybody out just because he or she has a couple of issues, including some that result in less than charitable behaviour (unless we’re talking about mean, cruel, sadistic behaviour, which is a different kind of thing). Each of has some issues and none of us is perfect in charity.

While at it, please remember about your own charity towards your girlfriend! If you allow yourself to judge her harshly, you will essentially be doing whatever she did—and without having an oppressive mentally ill mother as an excuse! Since you’re heavily inclined the “conservative way”, I’ll recall the quote from St. Thomas Aquinas (and I’m not a thomist): “Lord, in my love for the truth do not allow me to forget the truth about love.”

Finally, do not marry someone who has a tendency towards fast and wrong judgements. This is a pain to live with, although perhaps more so for me because I’m a criminal trial lawyer and I have a deeper understanding of such matters. You don’t want to be at the receiving end of false accusations or false judgements, nor do you want your children to be there. On the other hand, a man and a woman complement each other and have different strengths, maybe in your case justice, including the merciful benefit of doubt, would be your strength, while hers would be something different, that you don’t have (so much of).

Oh, and don’t marry someone who’s indifferent to you emotionally, even if she has a lot of good qualities. A balance sheet of advantages and disadvantages, or a comparative ranking or anything like that will not cut it. You must be attracted and have some sort of emotional connection and warm feelings for each other. People have been able to marry and live married without such things but I honestly can’t imagine that.

 

[Snugglebugmom]

I agree with everything 1ke has stated. And at the risk of sounding uncharitable myself: why exactly would you want to remain friends? She doesn’t sound like a very nice person, and frankly her mother sounds a little creepy.
Always be civil, of course, and most definitely keep her in your prayers. But someone with an uncharitable personality like that, would not be someone I’d like to count among my friends. Just my two cents, take them for what they are worth.

 

[sicutincensum]

I wouldn’t cross anybody out just because he or she has a couple of issues, including some that result in less than charitable behaviour (unless we’re talking about mean, cruel, sadistic behaviour, which is a different kind of thing). Each of has some issues and none of us is perfect in charity.

The problem is not really cruelty, but rather a tendence to blow things out of proportion, or to simply make things up. Some examples:

• Cutting every communication for two days because I didn’t respond to a text message she sent (1PM) while I was in work until I reached home (10:30PM) - I simply had lots of problems at work that day.
• Cutting every communication for a week after seeing a picture of my office and after she asking “does person x sit on that desk in front of yours?” and me answering “no, person x sits on the other desk on the left”, because she considering I avoided to say WHO sat in the desk in front of mine;
• Calling me a liar because I went to a mass where she supposed a certain girl would also go (I didn’t, I never to go that particular church, and she had no reason to imagine I would);
• Cutting every communication for a week after I said that “In every place there are temptations, be it an office, a monastery or an university”, as she thought it was almost as if I was conceding I would be unfaithful in the future.
• More recently, she was very alarmed because I sent her a link to the southerner song “Oh Susannah”, and she discovered I have a colleague at work with that name. I’m not making this up.

Fortunately, she will soon move out of her mother’s. But I mean, isn’t this too much, and simply indicative that she has also some serious problems of herself, which are like an impediment for marriage?

 

[Mrs_Sally]

The problem is not really cruelty, but rather a tendence to blow things out of proportion, or to simply make things up. Some examples:

• Cutting every communication for two days because I didn’t respond to a text message she sent (1PM) while I was in work until I reached home (10:30PM) - I simply had lots of problems at work that day.
• Cutting every communication for a week after seeing a picture of my office and after she asking “does person x sit on that desk in front of yours?” and me answering “no, person x sits on the other desk on the left”, because she considering I avoided to say WHO sat in the desk in front of mine;
• Calling me a liar because I went to a mass where she supposed a certain girl would also go (I didn’t, I never to go that particular church, and she had no reason to imagine I would);
• Cutting every communication for a week after I said that “In every place there are temptations, be it an office, a monastery or an university”, as she thought it was almost as if I was conceding I would be unfaithful in the future.
• More recently, she was very alarmed because I sent her a link to the southerner song “Oh Susannah”, and she discovered I have a colleague at work with that name. I’m not making this up.

Fortunately, she will soon move out of her mother’s. But I mean, isn’t this too much, and simply indicative that she has also some serious problems of herself, which are like an impediment for marriage?

Yes, her behavior sound very immature!

Break off your courtship with her now. If she changes on her own after being away from her mother for sometime, well and good. But to change from this level of insecurity will take awhile. You don’t sound that interested in her other than that she attends a traditional church. It is not your responsibility to solve her problems.

 

[SVP]

Cutting communication off is a clear sign that there really isn’t good communication to begin with! Major red flag.

Even after she moves out of her mother’s place, there will always be influence of her mother via telephone or email.

While you may feel that she can change, she may not have that inner confidence to effect such a major lifestyle change at this time. Unless she makes a willful change in her life, it would be best as others have noted to move on from this engagement. In marriage, one does not only enter into a new life with the spouse, but also by extension, the extended families.

If you are in love with her, but she is suspicious of you, there is no love.

As St Paul writes:
Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, [love] is not pompous, it is not inflated, it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury, it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.