Possibility of Spirit Baptism prior to Water Baptism

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We assure that through the Baptism with water (in the Trinitarian formula) also brings about the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. We have also seen people in the Old and New Testaments receiving the Holy Spirit before baptism (in the NT) or without being baptized (in the OT), so we know that it is possible for one to receive the Holy Spirit before baptism. Is this (reception of the Holy Spirit) the same as or brings about, the Baptism with the Holy Spirit? If not, then is it possible for one to be baptized with the Holy Spirit before they were baptized with water?
 
savedbychrist said:
We assure that through the Baptism with water (in the Trinitarian formula) also brings about the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. We have also seen people in the Old and New Testaments receiving the Holy Spirit before baptism (in the NT) or without being baptized (in the OT), so we know that it is possible for one to receive the Holy Spirit before baptism. Is this (reception of the Holy Spirit) the same as or brings about, the Baptism with the Holy Spirit? If not, then is it possible for one to be baptized with the Holy Spirit before they were baptized with water?
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Upon death, baptism of desire, baptism of blood. Catechumens and martyrs.
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.
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Vico said:
Upon death, baptism of desire, baptism of blood. Catechumens and martyrs.
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Right, but this isn’t literal “baptism” per se, but only by analogy. What “baptism of desire” or “baptism of blood” really refer to is the reception of the graces that would have been received in a sacramental baptism, not an actual ‘baptism’ – that is, as you quote in CCC 1258, “the fruits of baptism without being a sacrament” and “the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.”

So, the answer to the OP’s question is “no, not a ‘Spirit baptism’, per se, but a reception of grace, and only in special circumstances.”
 
Gorgias said:
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Vico:
Upon death, baptism of desire, baptism of blood. Catechumens and martyrs.
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Right, but this isn’t literal “baptism” per se, but only by analogy. What “baptism of desire” or “baptism of blood” really refer to is the reception of the graces that would have been received in a sacramental baptism, not an actual ‘baptism’ – that is, as you quote in CCC 1258, “the fruits of baptism without being a sacrament” and “the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.”

So, the answer to the OP’s question is “no, not a ‘Spirit baptism’, per se, but a reception of grace, and only in special circumstances.”
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Thank you.
 
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Think of it this way: An act of perfect contrition restores sanctifying grace to the soul prior to going to confession. By the same principle, a person can receive the grace of Baptism prior to receiving the Sacrament of Baptism. Remember Cornelius in Acts 10.
 
This intervention of the Holy Spirit was not a sacramental intervention. The Holy Spirit goes where he wills. Many times it is not where we expect.
 
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