Possible Abuses, Please Help Discern

[WoundedIcon]

I’m new to the church but I’m already catching on fast to some things that have gone wrong, namely in my first parish. But I want to run these things by you all to see if I’m right.

• The deacon mentioned the universal priesthood and said people can bless things while mentioning that most people just have the priest bless rosaries because of his “authority”.
• He also tempered my orthodoxy and said that Sola Scriptura is right for Protestants because it’s their tradition, that “it works for them” after I enumerated the doctrinal reasons for leaving Protestantism. I can’t reproduce exact phrasing and context, but it was clear he was leaning on some form of relativism.
• He also tries to get me to work with the Lutheran pastor who baptized me and has told me that I’m safe from going to Hell now that I’m baptized.
• The priest said that penance wasn’t a punishment to make up for sins, but that it was only a way to help me be a better Christian. It’s actually both though.
• Although not necessarily always an abuse, the music is basically jazzy-pop OCA fare. Sometimes they replace the Responsorial Psalm with a cute hymn.
• I can’t lay it out perfectly, but when I follow along in the pew missal it’s near impossible because of all the jarring changes. Other people sit there with theirs though and act like everything’s fine, although I think I saw some of the new inductees get lost.
• The priests have us raise our hands over candidates as a congregation in a priestly gesture to bless the candidates with them.
• Not as big of a deal, but one priest has a habit of walking out into the congregation during the parish school masses.
• We did some visualizing meditation during an RCIA retreat >.>

Is this as bad as I’m thinking it is? because I’m a recent convert and I need to know if I somehow have wound up more orthodox than my clergy I need to know if I should report anything to the bishop and leave (I have no influence as a 21 y/o Inquirer.)

 

[Spirithound]

• The deacon mentioned the universal priesthood and said people can bless things while mentioning that most people just have the priest bless rosaries because of his “authority”. The laity cannot give invokational blessings. These are proper to the priest, and are those blessings which are desirable for items such as Rosaries. The laity may intercede for each other for God’s blessing.
• He also tempered my orthodoxy and said that Sola Scriptura is right for Protestants because it’s their tradition, that “it works for them” after I enumerated the doctrinal reasons for leaving Protestantism. I can’t reproduce exact phrasing and context, but it was clear he was leaning on some form of relativism. Yep, relativism is bad. But don’t tell that to a relativist…he won’t understand!
• He also tries to get me to work with the Lutheran pastor who baptized me and has told me that I’m safe from going to Hell now that I’m baptized. Two things here. First, it may be permissible for you to work alongside the Lutheran pastor. My previous parish hosted a soup kitchen in rotation with 3 Protestant congregations. In some matters, however, it would be highly prudent of you to maintain your new Catholic identity, for example, in liturgy. The second matter, no, you’re not safe from going to hell. Just like the rest of us, you need to avoid mortal sin, and make a sacramental confession if you don’t.
• The priest said that penance wasn’t a punishment to make up for sins, but that it was only a way to help me be a better Christian. It’s actually both though. A little more tricky. Properly speaking, the punishment for sin is hell. However, Jesus paid that punishment for us. Also note that in common usage, a punishment like a prison sentence is the mechanism by which we gain forgiveness from society. In Confession, absolution is given regardless of whether the penance will be carried out or not, and even if no penance is given! On the other hand, yes, the penance helps to repair our relationship with God. I don’t think it can be called a punishment though.
• Although not necessarily always an abuse, the music is basically jazzy-pop OCA fare. Sometimes they replace the Responsorial Psalm with a cute hymn. Let it go for now. There are one or two options for the the Responsorial Psalm
• I can’t lay it out perfectly, but when I follow along in the pew missal it’s near impossible because of all the jarring changes. Other people sit there with theirs though and act like everything’s fine, although I think I saw some of the new inductees get lost. Definitely look into this one. Changing the words of the prayers of the Mass is an abuse.
• The priests have us raise our hands over candidates as a congregation in a priestly gesture to bless the candidates with them. Inappropriate, as it draws focus away from the priest’s invokational blessing.
• Not as big of a deal, but one priest has a habit of walking out into the congregation during the parish school masses. I think the priest does have some leeway on how he delivers the homily
• We did some visualizing meditation during an RCIA retreat >.> Meditation is a recognized form of prayer in the Catholic Church. You may want to do some reading, however, to learn exactly what the Church means by meditation. The Catechism has a section on prayer

 

[WoundedIcon]

Yeah, with the meditation we were imagining cool running water cleansing us of our anxieties to teach us about sacramentals. I know about rosary-style meditation and proper contemplative non-centering prayer, but that just seemed rather out of place for the RCIA, especially in context with some of the other looseness there.

And with the Responsorial Psalm, wouldn’t the options be present in the missal? Because this was not even a psalm (that I can remember), and it had no verse/response structure… so I think they outright swapped for a hymn. Was there another option for the Third Sunday of Easter, because UCSSB doesn’t show one.

I found this however:

**GIRM # 61

In the dioceses of the United States of America, the following may also be sung in place of the Psalm assigned in the Lectionary for Mass: either the proper or seasonal antiphon and Psalm from the Lectionary, as found either in the Roman Gradual or Simple Gradual or in another musical setting; or an antiphon and Psalm from another collection of the psalms and antiphons, including psalms arranged in metrical form, providing that they have been approved by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop. Songs or hymns may not be used in place of the responsorial Psalm.**

I know that on Resurrection Sunday they paraphrased the psalm too. Total mismatch with the missal.

That’s usually where I get confused actually. That, and I think there’s some ad-libbing, and mild inclusive language in the creed.

However, I’ll agree that I most likely misunderstood the priest. I see penance as a good work meant to replace temporal punishment, to remit it and make up to God for the offense committed. Something that helps us improve as well, of course. I guess I misstated that one.

Thank you BTW.

 

[puzzleannie]

I’m new to the church but I’m already catching on fast to some things that have gone wrong, namely in my first parish. But I want to run these things by you all to see if I’m right.
…
Is this as bad as I’m thinking it is? because I’m a recent convert and I need to know if I somehow have wound up more orthodox than my clergy I need to know if I should report anything to the bishop and leave (I have no influence as a 21 y/o Inquirer.)

nothing you described is an abuse. That is an action in liturgy that affects the licity of the rite or validity of a sacrament. Those are the things you first discuss with the priest, then bring to the attention of the bishop when you are entirely sure of all your facts. Nothing here even approaches that.

Nor has any of the teaching or other goings-on you describe necessarily wrong, especially since we do not know exactly what was said (vs what you heard and remembered) or the context. Some of what you relate is precisely true as reported so perhaps you misunderstood.

My best advice is simply to ask the deacon or catechist after your class or meeting, to give you a further explanation, rather than jumping to conclusions that something is necessarily wrong because you do not fully understand it.

Welcome Home.

 

[Barbkw]

• The priests have us raise our hands over candidates as a congregation in a priestly gesture to bless the candidates with them.

We do this in our Church, at the request of our priest. I believe he first blesses the candidates and then he turns to the congregation and asks that we also extend our blessing to the candidates in their conversion process.

It’s a joining of “priestly” and “Priestly” responsibilities to our new converts and to the Church.

 

[Barbkw]

• He also tempered my orthodoxy and said that Sola Scriptura is right for Protestants because it’s their tradition, that “it works for them” after I enumerated the doctrinal reasons for leaving Protestantism. I can’t reproduce exact phrasing and context, but it was clear he was leaning on some form of relativism.

Sola Scriptura has been right for some protestant denominations for centuries. It isn’t the “Fullness of Faith” but it is their faith.

That’s not relativism, that’s facing facts.

Just as you did yourself, people in protestant denominations will continue to search for greater and greater Truth.

 

[RC1947]

In the Sacrament of Penance, the completion of the penance assigned by the priest is a necessary part of the sacrament, and is required for a confession to be valid. It is not a pius option.

The abuses of which you speak will continue and will undermine your faith. I seriously question the education and motives of this priest. If I were you, I would find another parish, the more traditional the better.

 

[paddy22]

We do this in our Church, at the request of our priest. I believe he first blesses the candidates and then he turns to the congregation and asks that we also extend our blessing to the candidates in their conversion process.

It’s a joining of “priestly” and “Priestly” responsibilities to our new converts and to the Church.

With all due respect, just because you do it in your church doesn’t mean it is proper. As for the second part, can you elaborate? I don’t understand what you mean by that.

 

[WoundedIcon]

We do this in our Church, at the request of our priest. I believe he first blesses the candidates and then he turns to the congregation and asks that we also extend our blessing to the candidates in their conversion process.

It’s a joining of “priestly” and “Priestly” responsibilities to our new converts and to the Church.

That’s not proper, whether done in your church or not. Us laity have no blessings to extend or give, we may only pray that God blesses them and hope he does. They had me thinking I could hand out blessings of my own accord, which I found is wrong. We must have the authority to do such things in the Church, and only those who have gone through the sacrament of Holy Orders have the power to do that.

Plus, the gestures cause a confusion of roles and blur the lines between ecclesiastical authority and laity. They already confused me, but I learned otherwise.

 

[nicolep]

In the Sacrament of Penance, the completion of the penance assigned by the priest is a necessary part of the sacrament, and is required for a confession to be valid. It is not a pius option.

The abuses of which you speak will continue and will undermine your faith. I seriously question the education and motives of this priest. If I were you, I would find another parish, the more traditional the better.

The lack of penance DOES NOT affect the validity of the sacrament. One’s sins are forgiven provided the priest absolves them.

 

[Barbkw]

• The priest said that penance wasn’t a punishment to make up for sins, but that it was only a way to help me be a better Christian. It’s actually both though.

Your priest is correct. The greatest penance I’ve ever received is the reciting of prayers. God wishes for all sinners to be saved. Whatever a priest asks of you and talks with you about in Reconciliation is for your continued benefit.

 

[WoundedIcon]

Sola Scriptura has been right for some protestant denominations for centuries. It isn’t the “Fullness of Faith” but it is their faith.

That’s not relativism, that’s facing facts.

Just as you did yourself, people in protestant denominations will continue to search for greater and greater Truth.

It’s their faith, but it’s heresy. It’s a terribly distorted part of the Deposit of Faith. To correct somebody for saying that, especially when the person giving the correction is a clergyman and everyone there is Catholic, makes no logical sense. Protestants can’t search for greater truth - besides as individuals - because they don’t even know which rock to put their foot on first. They won’t doctrinally develop as a whole back into Catholics due to that. Now if an individual chooses to discard their Protestant traditions, then they have a start.

 

[WoundedIcon]

Your priest is correct. The greatest penance I’ve ever received is the reciting of prayers. God wishes for all sinners to be saved. Whatever a priest asks of you and talks with you about in Reconciliation is for your continued benefit.

I did admit that I messed up there already, so let’s not go on about that.

 

[Barbkw]

That’s not proper, whether done in your church or not. Us laity have no blessings to extend or give, we may only pray that God blesses them and hope he does. They had me thinking I could hand out blessings of my own accord, which I found is wrong. We must have the authority to do such things in the Church, and only those who have gone through the sacrament of Holy Orders have the power to do that.

Plus, the gestures cause a confusion of roles and blur the lines between ecclesiastical authority and laity. They already confused me, but I learned otherwise.

Yes the laity does.

We all - in a lesser role than that ordained by the priesthood - are priests, prophets and kings in the glory of God. We all are members of the Body of Christ. The priest asks us to participate.

It would be incorrect if the parish broke into the Mass and started to order Father around and tell him that we wished to offer our blessing in addition to his.

See the difference? We must be obedient to what the priest legitimately asks of us. In this case, he is asking us to welcome in these new candidates, into our hearts, with our blessing.

 

[WoundedIcon]

I find it funny that people like to mention the universal priesthood, but yet they forget the part about us being kings as well. A consistent interpretation would allow, not only for the abuses I’ve noticed, but also for all of us to command the president to do things.

Edit: Dude, amazing timing. I wrote a response to your post before it was posted.

 

[Barbkw]

It’s their faith, but it’s heresy. It’s a terribly distorted part of the Deposit of Faith. To correct somebody for saying that, especially when the person giving the correction is a clergyman and everyone there is Catholic, makes no logical sense. Protestants can’t search for greater truth - besides as individuals - because they don’t even know which rock to put their foot on first. They won’t doctrinally develop as a whole back into Catholics due to that. Now if an individual chooses to discard their Protestant traditions, then they have a start.

You said you were of a protestant denomination…you searched for greater truth.

 

[WoundedIcon]

Yes the laity does.

We all - in a lesser role than that ordained by the priesthood - are priests, prophets and kings in the glory of God. We all are members of the Body of Christ. The priest asks us to participate.

It would be incorrect if the parish broke into the Mass and started to order Father around and tell him that we wished to offer our blessing in addition to his.

See the difference? We must be obedient to what the priest legitimately asks of us. In this case, he is asking us to welcome in these new candidates, into our hearts, with our blessing.

And to the Vatican and Pope above all. If they don’t allow it, there’s nothing to obey in what the priest wishes for us to be doing. He would have no authority to ask it of us anyway. We’d be following our pastors instead of the Church then.

 

[paddy22]

Yes the laity does.

We all - in a lesser role than that ordained by the priesthood - are priests, prophets and kings in the glory of God. We all are members of the Body of Christ. The priest asks us to participate.

It would be incorrect if the parish broke into the Mass and started to order Father around and tell him that we wished to offer our blessing in addition to his.

See the difference? We must be obedient to what the priest legitimately asks of us. In this case, he is asking us to welcome in these new candidates, into our hearts, with our blessing.

As far as I know, lay people can only ask God to bless something, not impart a blessing themselves as priests can - lines should not be blurred between the laity and the priesthood. What are you basing your information on?

 

[WoundedIcon]

You said you were of a protestant denomination…you searched for greater truth.

Yes, but I said as individuals it’s possible, because we can abandon the Solas. Protestantism, as a form of Christianity, cannot evolve into greater truth because of the Solas. If they somehow were wholesale abandoned, it would either result in or be a result of greater heresy, or a wholesale re-assimilation with the See of Rome and/or the Orthodox communion.

For Protestants to reach greater truth, they have to abandon Protestantism.

 

[Barbkw]

When a prospective son-in-law comes to meet a woman’s Mother and Father, he does so for their blessing.

When a young child asks to attend an event, parental permission is requested so that parents can give their blessing.

When candidates stand before the congregation, and Father asks the parish to extend their blessing, the congregation is assenting to the responsibility of having these new converts in the parish.

We “old fart” Catholics become spiritual parents to these new Catholics.

Don’t be nasty and refuse that offering.