Possible Conversion of Friend...Need Your Help #1

[OHCA_XP]

This is the first of many questions a Lutheran friend of mine asked me. He told me, that if I could provide the answers to these questions, he’d consider converting to Catholicism. I’ve come up with some answers, but I definitely want to pick other peoples’ brains.

He claims that prayers for the dead came about at 300 A.D. Obviously, because some books have been taken out of their canon, we can’t use certain Scripture passages. It would be awesome if we had historical, Biblical, Patristic, and any other resources you can think of. Anybody care to defend the Church with me?

 

[Irish_mick]

I’ll help! Obviously, in Macabees we have prayers for the dead, and in the NT we have baptism of the dead, though I’m not sure of the Church’s explanation of this. I can probably come up with some evidence in the church fathers. Will they believe them?

 

[OHCA_XP]

I’ll help! Obviously, in Macabees we have prayers for the dead, and in the NT we have baptism of the dead, though I’m not sure of the Church’s explanation of this. I can probably come up with some evidence in the church fathers. Will they believe them?

Baptism of the dead? Also can’t use Macabees because their Bible doesn’t have it.

 

[Cari]

Could you start with first asking him WHY he won’t accept the Catholic bible? Ask him if he knows the history of the canonization of the Bible.

I always get perplexed with people who’ll accept the fact that for 1500 years all Christians were somehow misled by the Devil when accepting the Catholic bible.

Truthfully, without a discussion of the error of the Protestants in removing books from the Bible and another discussion on the error of Sola Scriptura, your friend will always have those to “fall back on” when your arguments start closing in on him.

 

[OHCA_XP]

Could you start with first asking him WHY he won’t accept the Catholic bible? Ask him if he knows the history of the canonization of the Bible.

I always get perplexed with people who’ll accept the fact that for 1500 years all Christians were somehow misled by the Devil when accepting the Catholic bible.

Truthfully, without a discussion of the error of the Protestants in removing books from the Bible and another discussion on the error of Sola Scriptura, your friend will always have those to “fall back on” when your arguments start closing in on him.

Unfortunately his big hang up on our Canon stems from a quote of his to me when he tried to convert me: “Remember God determines the canon, humans discover it. God regulates the canon but humans recognize it. See 2 Tim 3:16-17.”

I don’t particularly see his line of reasoning, but he said that our older brothers and sisters in the faith (the Jews), should be the source of our canon. But that’ll be a different thread

 

[Cari]

Unfortunately his big hang up on our Canon stems from a quote of his to me when he tried to convert me: “Remember God determines the canon, humans discover it. God regulates the canon but humans recognize it. See 2 Tim 3:16-17.”

I don’t particularly see his line of reasoning, but he said that our older brothers and sisters in the faith (the Jews), should be the source of our canon. But that’ll be a different thread

Argh. The “the Jews threw those books out of their canon, so we should too” argument kills me. Never mind the fact that it was a decision made AFTER Christ’s death, made by the very people who rejected His Incarnation. Never mind the fact that Jesus Himself used those very writings. Never mind, never mind, never mind.

Have you checked out catholic answer’s tract on the subject?
catholic.com/library/Roots_of_Purgatory.asp

It shows the roots of praying for the dead predate his arbitrary 300 A.D. date. And, as it says, the Orthodox Jews also pray for the dead. Older brothers and sister in the faith, and all that.

 

[donmaximuso27]

Unfortunately his big hang up on our Canon stems from a quote of his to me when he tried to convert me: “Remember God determines the canon, humans discover it. God regulates the canon but humans recognize it. See 2 Tim 3:16-17.”

I don’t particularly see his line of reasoning, but he said that our older brothers and sisters in the faith (the Jews), should be the source of our canon. But that’ll be a different thread

I highly recommend this website, it gives passages from books other then Maccabees, as well as many quotes from the early church fathers.

scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html

 

[Irish_mick]

Please implore your friend to research the canon in use during Jesus’ day. They used the Septuagint, those books regarded as canonized during Alexander’s time. Remind him the Jewish canon was not closed when it was discovered in the 3rd century, but the Christian canon was already closed before the end of the 4th century. The scripture available to Jesus and His disciples was the Septuagint, as the Jewish canon was undiscovered. Show him the many quotes made by Jesus and His disciples/Apostles from the Apocrypha. Possibly this will help him to realize that they are important. Finally, show him the table of contents from the Oxford first edition of the KJV, which contained the Maccabean books.
Mick

 

[OHCA_XP]

Thanks for the resources. I’ll give it a look see and post what I come up with as far as what I’ll be sending him. Thanks again.

 

[grandfather]

Thanks for the resources. I’ll give it a look see and post what I come up with as far as what I’ll be sending him. Thanks again.

You do not need to use scripture to prove that the earliest church prayed to and for the dead. You can prove this through historical evidence alone.

The earliest known rote prayer that we have is from approximately the year 50 AD. It is prayer to Saint Joseph and probably easily findable on the net. Some of the apostles were still alive.

The catacombs, as most people are aware, are tunnels and rooms dug underneath Rome. The persecuted Church gathered in them to worship at night. They were also places to bury the dead. The earliest Christians worshiped in the same space where the remains of their dead were deposited. This is not theology. It is history. The tombs are evidence. They are dated.

The reason the catcombs are there at all is the type of rock that is under Rome. It is called Tufa rock. I don’t know the correct spelling. It is a soft rock and easy to dig into, kind of mushy. Once it is exposed to air it hardens and a crust forms. So they could break through the crust and tunnels could be dug, or tombs and they would harden up. The remains of the dead were deposted into a prepared tomb, and it would be sealed over with some inscription over it with the persons name and other information.

If the person was a martyr a small ampule or flask of the person’s blood would be set on a shelf. There would be symbols for virgins, martyrs, etc., maybe not unlike gravestones today where a veteran’s grave might have a flag or a Marine Corps symbol, or some other symbol of a fraternal organization, dates, etc. on the stone.

Going back to the first century there is written evidence, written in stone as a matter of fact, that Christians prayed for and to the dead. If the person died an ordinary death it would say for example, Jim, pray for Jim. If the person was martyred it would say, Jim pray for us.

It is historical fact the the Jews prayed for their dead prior to and during the time of Jesus. They still do. Jesus never condemned this practice.

You can prove the history here, but I would guess that your friend will then raise other objections.

God bless you and your friend.

 

[donmaximuso27]

You do not need to use scripture to prove that the earliest church prayed to and for the dead. You can prove this through historical evidence alone.

The earliest known rote prayer that we have is from approximately the year 50 AD. It is prayer to Saint Joseph and probably easily findable on the net. Some of the apostles were still alive.

The catacombs, as most people are aware, are tunnels and rooms dug underneath Rome. The persecuted Church gathered in them to worship at night. They were also places to bury the dead. The earliest Christians worshiped in the same space where the remains of their dead were deposited. This is not theology. It is history. The tombs are evidence. They are dated.

The reason the catcombs are there at all is the type of rock that is under Rome. It is called Tufa rock. I don’t know the correct spelling. It is a soft rock and easy to dig into, kind of mushy. Once it is exposed to air it hardens and a crust forms. So they could break through the crust and tunnels could be dug, or tombs and they would harden up. The remains of the dead were deposted into a prepared tomb, and it would be sealed over with some inscription over it with the persons name and other information.

If the person was a martyr a small ampule or flask of the person’s blood would be set on a shelf. There would be symbols for virgins, martyrs, etc., maybe not unlike gravestones today where a veteran’s grave might have a flag or a Marine Corps symbol, or some other symbol of a fraternal organization, dates, etc. on the stone.

Going back to the first century there is written evidence, written in stone as a matter of fact, that Christians prayed for and to the dead. If the person died an ordinary death it would say for example, Jim, pray for Jim. If the person was martyred it would say, Jim pray for us.

It is historical fact the the Jews prayed for their dead prior to and during the time of Jesus. They still do. Jesus never condemned this practice.

You can prove the history here, but I would guess that your friend will then raise other objections.

God bless you and your friend.

This is true, but many Protestants believe in sola scriptura, and therefore do not hold to sacred tradition. So, while tradition and early church history is extremely helpful, you can really touch the hearts and minds of Protestants when you defend Catholic doctrine using sola scriptura.

 

[Newbie2]

I have to wonder if there’s any other issues your friend has about conversion, being Lutheran. Usually, it’s a problem with magisterial authority, the papacy (called the “Anti-christ” by Luther himself) , or the big ones, justification by faith alone and the sole authority of scripture for matters of faith.

If this is the only thing he has a problem with, appeal to the canon…who has/had the authority to put it together? If he or she accepts that, then it follows that the canon accepted by magisterial authority is the one that includes Maccabees, which, of course, includes our “proof” that prayers for the dead are legit.

Good Luck. A Lutheran friend of mine is going into the (Lutheran) ministry. Going to be much harder to help convert him now…

OOPs. Duh…I failed to read the OP correctly: “The first of many questions”. Strike my first paragraph.

Good Luck again. This is the first of many difficult questions. Wait until he gets to Faith alone. :doh2:

 

[donmaximuso27]

I have to wonder if there’s any other issues your friend has about conversion, being Lutheran. Usually, it’s a problem with magisterial authority, the papacy (called the “Anti-christ” by Luther himself) , or the big ones, justification by faith alone and the sole authority of scripture for matters of faith.

If this is the only thing he has a problem with, appeal to the canon…who has/had the authority to put it together? If he or she accepts that, then it follows that the canon accepted by magisterial authority is the one that includes Maccabees, which, of course, includes our “proof” that prayers for the dead are legit.

Good Luck. A Lutheran friend of mine is going into the (Lutheran) ministry. Going to be much harder to help convert him now…

Great post, I can relate to this very well. I myself was about to enter Lutheran seminary last fall, and now I am Catholic. From my own personal experience, I learned from Luther’s own personal writings that devotion to Mary and to the Saints were not an issue with him. The focus on the Eucharist is still the center of the Lutheran Mass. In the end, it was the Papacy that became my sole problem with the Catholic Church. My main tools in researching and discovering the truth in the Chair of St. Peter was analyzing the Aramaic of Matthew 16:18: “You are Peter and on this Rock I will be build my Church.” Also, I looked into the words of the early church fathers and the early church to see that Peter indeed was the founder of Christ’s Church, and that the Pope is Peter’s successor. Hopefully this helps.

 

[Jabronie]

Baptism of the dead? Also can’t use Macabees because their Bible doesn’t have it.

Even if they don’t consider Macabees canon, it is evidence it praying for the dead was a practice of some Jews.

Also, in Luke chapter 16, Jesus tells a story of the rich man praying to Abarham (biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke+16:19-31)

Both examples predate 300 AD.

 

[grandfather]

This is true, but many Protestants believe in sola scriptura, and therefore do not hold to sacred tradition. So, while tradition and early church history is extremely helpful, you can really touch the hearts and minds of Protestants when you defend Catholic doctrine using sola scriptura.

If they will not accept anything as “historical” truth on the grounds that it is not in scripture then there is no proof that World War II happened, George Washington crossed the Delaware at Trenton, or Martin Luther began the Protestant Reformation, or that he even existed. Historical evididence is not theological argument and has nothing to do with faith. Documents of the early Church reveal what the early Christians believed. They do not prove that the early Christians beliefs were true, but only establish what beliefs were held. You can prove the earliest Christians prayed to saints and for souls by historical evidence. you can’t prove that they were right in doing so.

 

[donmaximuso27]

If they will not accept anything as “historical” truth on the grounds that it is not in scripture then there is no proof that World War II happened, George Washington crossed the Delaware at Trenton, or Martin Luther began the Protestant Reformation, or that he even existed. Historical evididence is not theological argument and has nothing to do with faith. Documents of the early Church reveal what the early Christians believed. They do not prove that the early Christians beliefs were true, but only establish what beliefs were held. You can prove the earliest Christians prayed to saints and for souls by historical evidence. you can’t prove that they were right in doing so.

Sacred tradition is more then just mere historical truth! You as a Catholic should know that! But that is a whole different subject. My post simply stated how powerful a sola scriptura method is in defending Catholic doctrine against Protestants. Many Protestants, especially Bible Christians and Evangelicals, have a bias view that Catholics do not know their Bible. However, when you defend the Catholic faith using sola scriptura, giving them a taste of their own medicince, it is completely unexpected. In many cases, it is even scary to Protestants when they encounter Catholics who defend their faith using scripture alone. It immediately takes away what Protestants believe to be their apologetical advantage, that they know Scripture better then Catholics. As for sacred tradition, it is not just mere history. Perhaps you should refer to the fact that the apostles spread the Gospel by the tradition of mouth before the tradition of written word. This sacred tradition does in fact verify the practices of the early Christian Church, for it is not just historical tradition, it is Apostolic Tradition!

 

[inthecloud]

A suggention of prayers for the dead.
Use Jewish sources.
See how they prayed for the dead them and how they pray for the dead now.
Jews, like Apostolic Christians are not Sola Scriptura people with some small exceptions.

Many Jews did not pray for the dead in Biblical times because they did not believe in a after life!. You died and thats is all. Six feet under. Period. And no resurrection of the dead too.
By Jesus times most Jewish sects started to believe in a afterlife and the resurrection of the dead. Minus the Saduccees, thats it. They were “Sola Torah”. By the time Daniel, Maccabees and Wisdom were written, most Jews believed in a afterlife and praying for the dead.
But the Pharisees had those beliefs in their tradition, while the Christians had them in their canon. Maccabees and Wisdom. So praying for the dead was a well established Jewish tradition by the time of the first Christians.