Possible convert issues

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My wife and I have been contemplating conversion to catholism and been trying to hammer out where God wishes us to be. She made a what if comment today that gave me pause and I was curious how many of you feel on this issue. We are willing to accept the churches stances on issues even though we never even considered them in the past (ie birth control). We, I am sure as manu of you, have strong beliefs in some areas. She used the example of abortion (I know the church is strongly opposed to this, as are we), but she used this as an example nonetheless… She said “if the pope were to ever say that it is now okay for abortion to take place in certain situations or took a more liberal stance on the issue, where would that leave us? I don’t care if the pope says that’s okay, I can think for myself on this issue”.

This is obviously a hypothetical, because we understand the churches stance on this issue. We are actually members of the Methodist church at this point and many of you know the liberal stance they take on the issue, but the Methodist churches stance also does not claim to be infallible. I would just like to get some insight on this issue. I find easy to see the catholic view on many issue, but papal infallibility is a tough one. And it’s what ifs that, that get me with this issue. I see that in the past that the Church has survived bad Popes and bad clergy. Just wanted to get your take on this. TIA
 
Kmfioc said:
My wife and I have been contemplating conversion to catholism and been trying to hammer out where God wishes us to be. She made a what if comment today that gave me pause and I was curious how many of you feel on this issue. We are willing to accept the churches stances on issues even though we never even considered them in the past (ie birth control). We, I am sure as manu of you, have strong beliefs in some areas. She used the example of abortion (I know the church is strongly opposed to this, as are we), but she used this as an example nonetheless… She said “if the pope were to ever say that it is now okay for abortion to take place in certain situations or took a more liberal stance on the issue, where would that leave us? I don’t care if the pope says that’s okay, I can think for myself on this issue”.

This is obviously a hypothetical, because we understand the churches stance on this issue. We are actually members of the Methodist church at this point and many of you know the liberal stance they take on the issue, but the Methodist churches stance also does not claim to be infallible. I would just like to get some insight on this issue. I find easy to see the catholic view on many issue, but papal infallibility is a tough one. And it’s what ifs that, that get me with this issue. I see that in the past that the Church has survived bad Popes and bad clergy. Just wanted to get your take on this. TIA
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Yes, popes are assured infallibility, not impeccability, and that gift is only associated with the office, not the man. In any case the gift simply assures us that no error would enter Church doctrine. You need to judge for youself whether or not that had happened thus far. We grow in trust of the Church’s positions, over time, as she proves herself to us, as we find ourselves agreeing with her. This is a gift as well, known as the “senses fidelium”.
 
Do you honestly see the church going in that direction? We’re the foremost leader in the fight for life.

So, I wouldin’t worry about the what if’s…there’s sooo many possibilities of what could go wrong in the life of the church. It’s said that we catholics ourselves have been trying to destroy the church…and in 2,000 years have been completely unsuccessful! We keep growing and growing.

If you’ve found where Christ has given His authority and blessing…you need to enter the Catholic church because like Peter said to Christ when Christ taught about the “hard” teaching about the Eucharist being His true body and blood… “To whom shall we go? You have the words of everlasting life”. When you find truth…you’re obligated by conscience to follow it! Because Jesus is “the way, the TRUTH, and the life”.

God bless, and good luck on your spiritual journey.

Michael
 
Kmfioc said:
My wife and I have been contemplating conversion to catholism and been trying to hammer out where God wishes us to be. She made a what if comment today that gave me pause and I was curious how many of you feel on this issue. We are willing to accept the churches stances on issues even though we never even considered them in the past (ie birth control). We, I am sure as manu of you, have strong beliefs in some areas. She used the example of abortion (I know the church is strongly opposed to this, as are we), but she used this as an example nonetheless… She said “if the pope were to ever say that it is now okay for abortion to take place in certain situations or took a more liberal stance on the issue, where would that leave us? I don’t care if the pope says that’s okay, I can think for myself on this issue”.

This is obviously a hypothetical, because we understand the churches stance on this issue. We are actually members of the Methodist church at this point and many of you know the liberal stance they take on the issue, but the Methodist churches stance also does not claim to be infallible. I would just like to get some insight on this issue. I find easy to see the catholic view on many issue, but papal infallibility is a tough one. And it’s what ifs that, that get me with this issue. I see that in the past that the Church has survived bad Popes and bad clergy. Just wanted to get your take on this. TIA
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Not one bad pope has ever made an ex cathedra statment. None have changed or added to any Catholic doctrine. The Church has held these beliefs since the beginning and has never waivered.

In considering Catholicism, one thing to be considered is the belief that the Holy Spirit really is leading the leaders of our Church. Christ made a promise that the Holy Spirit would lead the Church into all truth and that he would remain with it until the end of time. What you must consider is that this is a divine institution. It is Christ that makes the Church holy, not men, and it is God that will protect his word where he has placed it.

So it is the divine aspect of the Catholic Church in which we place our trust; the promises of Christ being the hope upon which we rely. In 2000 years, God has not failed his Church in preserving the deposit of faith given to us by the Apostles. I see no reason that he should begin now. 🙂
 
Kmfioc said:
My wife and I have been contemplating conversion to catholism and been trying to hammer out where God wishes us to be. She made a what if comment today that gave me pause and I was curious how many of you feel on this issue. We are willing to accept the churches stances on issues even though we never even considered them in the past (ie birth control). We, I am sure as manu of you, have strong beliefs in some areas. She used the example of abortion (I know the church is strongly opposed to this, as are we), but she used this as an example nonetheless… She said “if the pope were to ever say that it is now okay for abortion to take place in certain situations or took a more liberal stance on the issue, where would that leave us? I don’t care if the pope says that’s okay, I can think for myself on this issue”.

This is obviously a hypothetical, because we understand the churches stance on this issue. We are actually members of the Methodist church at this point and many of you know the liberal stance they take on the issue, but the Methodist churches stance also does not claim to be infallible. I would just like to get some insight on this issue. I find easy to see the catholic view on many issue, but papal infallibility is a tough one. And it’s what ifs that, that get me with this issue. I see that in the past that the Church has survived bad Popes and bad clergy. Just wanted to get your take on this. TIA
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Hi. Welcome to the Forum. Probably Catholics will say the same thing or not the same thing in response to your post depending on their emphasis or personal experience but probably the nuance of it will be the same. You are most welcome of course to consider Catholicism, the one and true Church.

From what we come across here in CAF from non-Catholics, the Pope’s infallibility is clearly very much misunderstood that the fear of infallibility is clearly unwarranted. Having said that, it is understandable that non-Catholics view this matter that way considering their background and how it opposes theologically to their belief.

I would even to say, if I am asked to explain it to non-Catholics, the Pope is no different than any leader of a Protestant church. This is not to say that he does not have the charism of infallibility but which leaders of any churches are not to be obeyed reasonably and loved?

Infallibility is very often confused with every teaching, every pastoral letter and every thought that a Pope may has. No, they are not. Looking back at the history of the Church, there are probably a few such utterances that we can count as infallible. Many of these are nothing new and many are merely belief that are already been held by the Church to be documented officially.

Catholics on the most parts obey the Pope out of reverence because he is their leader. This is nothing strange in Christianity. Infallibility does not come into the picture mostly. Even it does, the Church’s laws usually help us living an authentic Christian life rather than not.

I am glad that both of you are on the same thought with the Church on issues such as abortion and birth control. The visible Church and her visible head, the Pope, has been the bulwark of uncompromising stands on such issues and for that she is widely attacked by the secular world. This is one of the mark of a true Church where despite all the opposition, she stands firm on her faith and belief.

God bless.
 
Kmfioc said:
My wife and I have been contemplating conversion to catholism and been trying to hammer out where God wishes us to be. She made a what if comment today that gave me pause and I was curious how many of you feel on this issue. We are willing to accept the churches stances on issues even though we never even considered them in the past (ie birth control). We, I am sure as manu of you, have strong beliefs in some areas. She used the example of abortion (I know the church is strongly opposed to this, as are we), but she used this as an example nonetheless… She said “if the pope were to ever say that it is now okay for abortion to take place in certain situations or took a more liberal stance on the issue, where would that leave us? I don’t care if the pope says that’s okay, I can think for myself on this issue”.

This is obviously a hypothetical, because we understand the churches stance on this issue. We are actually members of the Methodist church at this point and many of you know the liberal stance they take on the issue, but the Methodist churches stance also does not claim to be infallible. I would just like to get some insight on this issue. I find easy to see the catholic view on many issue, but papal infallibility is a tough one. And it’s what ifs that, that get me with this issue. I see that in the past that the Church has survived bad Popes and bad clergy. Just wanted to get your take on this. TIA
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We just had a wonderful discussion on Papal infallibility HERE. I think you will find it most helpful.

Of course your wife is right that each of us can “think for myself” on issues. However, Jesus never intended for us to each act independently of each other. It is far easier for an individual to fall into error than it is for a group who are able to take various views and (with the guidance of the Holy Spirit) expose error and raise up truth.
I would ask that you read Mt 18:15-18…and consider two things.
First that where it speaks of “sin” that doctrinal error (false teaching) is a sin…and second…that there is a reason Jesus had the issue taken to the larger community and that it is “The Church” that we are to tell it to and listen to…that it is The Church that has the Christ given authority to bind and loose “whatever”. We can see this very issue played out in Acts 15 where the dispute arose within the Church over the need for Gentiles to be circumcised and obey the mosaic law.
So this speaks to the importance of thinking for ourselves but doing so within the larger spirit guided community.

As to the matter of Papal infallibility the mistake that many people make about this is that they look at it too narrowly. Teachings are not issued by the Holy Father in vacuum. Matters are discussed, prayed over, debated, prayed over, researched, prayed over, drafted, prayed over, reviewed, prayed over, modified, prayed over, corrected and prayed over some more before they are ever issued as a teaching.
Each new teaching on faith and morals must be consistent with past teaching and for this reason the Holy Father seeks (name removed by moderator)ut from the wider magisterium so that -as I described above - error is rooted out and truth raised up.

Hope this helps. Like I said - the linked thread might provide more insight on the matter.

Peace
James
 
Well, the pope certainly couldn’t change Church teaching, or he undermines the entire premise and foundation of papal infallibility. It would mean that prior teachings contained error.

Second, you WILL take your direction on doctrine from SOMEONE. It could be the Pope, a book, another denomination’s pastor, yourself, etc. But you WILL take your doctrine from someone. So the question is, who will you look to? Christ promised to build His Church, and that the gates of hades would not prevail over it. Did Christ give this same promise to anything or anyone else?
 
This is helpful. Thanks guys. The link provided great insight, as well as your comments. I’m sure that you all understand that there are many issues to wrap your head around coming from a Protestant background. I’m sure ill have other questions along the way.
 
Kmfioc said:
This is helpful. Thanks guys. The link provided great insight, as well as your comments. I’m sure that you all understand that there are many issues to wrap your head around coming from a Protestant background. I’m sure ill have other questions along the way.
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Happy to be of help. Yes - we can understand. Just trust as you move forward that there is a reason that this Church has survived for 2000 years and that the reasons things work as they do is because this is what has worked best for protecting the Gospel of our Lord.

Peace
James
 
I would just like to say that looking into the Catholic church is worth while since it is the only way you have of making up your own mind.

Just to clearify some misunderstanding about Catholocism. It is not a popular vote on moral matters that we follow. It may be true that some catholics in the church dissagree with church teaching. That means absolutely nothing. It is what the church itself teaches that we follow.

So whether or not same sex marriage is a big hit with the population of the U.S. or any other organization, it will never be with the catholic church because it is against God’s moral law and may not be subject to change by any popular vote. It stands on its own two feet.

And that is what I like about my church, I know what it stands for and where it stands and why it stands where it does. And this for 2000 years.

I think there is an incorrect concept that the church just makes up what it wants to accept and what it wants to reject in regards to faith and morals. As if it is a mere choice or flip of the coin on the part of the clerics.

But the fact is, the facts that God has told us about himself and ourselves, directly, or indirectly thru nature, can never be changed. For example, abortion is wrong in itself and the church could never say that it was ok. The church cannot change anything that has already been decided by God to be right or wrong. What is right is right and what is wrong is wrong and the church can’t and won’t change that, but only uphold the correct teaching. It is not up to the church’s private decision making.

If someone is looking for truth then they will find it in Catholocism. But if they are looking for excuses, that they won’t find. And in addition, the church does explain it’s stance on individual issues and the reasons for it for those interested.

Just some thoughts.
 
Kmfioc said:
This is helpful. Thanks guys. The link provided great insight, as well as your comments. I’m sure that you all understand that there are many issues to wrap your head around coming from a Protestant background. I’m sure ill have other questions along the way.
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There are many converts on these boards. And we all had many issues that we had to wrap our heads around. Feel free to ask as many questions as you have. We’ve probably already asked them ourselves. In fact, in 2,000 years, the Church has heard every question, and has answered it. We just have to go look for the answer. 🙂

It was one of the things I really came to appreciate about the Church. Welcome to the forums!
 
Kmfioc said:
My wife and I have been contemplating conversion to catholism and been trying to hammer out where God wishes us to be. She made a what if comment today that gave me pause and I was curious how many of you feel on this issue. We are willing to accept the churches stances on issues even though we never even considered them in the past (ie birth control). We, I am sure as manu of you, have strong beliefs in some areas. She used the example of abortion (I know the church is strongly opposed to this, as are we), but she used this as an example nonetheless… She said “if the pope were to ever say that it is now okay for abortion to take place in certain situations or took a more liberal stance on the issue, where would that leave us? I don’t care if the pope says that’s okay, I can think for myself on this issue”.

This is obviously a hypothetical, because we understand the churches stance on this issue. We are actually members of the Methodist church at this point and many of you know the liberal stance they take on the issue, but the Methodist churches stance also does not claim to be infallible. I would just like to get some insight on this issue. I find easy to see the catholic view on many issue, but papal infallibility is a tough one. And it’s what ifs that, that get me with this issue. I see that in the past that the Church has survived bad Popes and bad clergy. Just wanted to get your take on this. TIA
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You pose an excellent question and I can assure you, you’re hardly alone–it is a legitimate concern. Popes are afterall, human beings. As was Yeshua.

We take it on faith however, that the Church that Yeshua founded, will be guided by the Holy Spirit–as she has always been–and that when the Pope speakes ex-cathedra, he will be guided by the Holy Spirit as well. So rather than fretting over what might happen…proceed in faith, and in prayer…and by all means, don’t stop thinking for yourself–the Lord needs your mental faculties in full working order, and surely already has plans for how to put them to service, for the Church!
 
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