Possible obstacles in getting a Tridentine Mass at my local parish

[RosslynV]

I recently attended my first tridentine mass although not at my parish. I believe I have a right to request that my local parish institute a tried tine mass into its Mass schedule. I would be happy if the parish would accommodate me. Logistically it would be tough. My church has the tabernacle hidden away in a side room. Also, if the parish priest refuses what recourse do I have?

 

[YoungTradCath]

Your tabernacle is not required to be located in the middle to have a Tridentine Mass.

A church can be the most spaceship-y looking thing and the tabernacle can be located in a little closet somewhere, a Tridentine Mass can still be offered in such a place.

 

[ProVobis]

YTC is right. There are no such restrictions in order to have a TLM celebrated.

Also, it seems your diocese is probably the richest in EF Masses so it probably wouldn’t be all that difficult to find support for your venture. I’m just guessing, though.

 

[RosslynV]

So such a Mass cannot be said at an altar without a tabernacle?

 

[ProVobis]

So such a Mass cannot be said at an altar without a tabernacle?

It is often said at an altar without a tabernacle.

That will be the least of your problems.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

More realistic questions would include things like:

What does your pastor think of the idea?
What do other parishioners think? Would you get a good-sized group to attend?
Is there a priest available to celebrate it?

If it’s just you with this idea then it probably won’t go far. However, if your pastor is on board and there are others who are interested, then there are more possibilities. Also, ProVobis makes it sound like the EF is pretty common in your diocese. Do other parishes nearby offer it? If so, what is their attendance like?

 

[porthos11]

I recently attended my first tridentine mass although not at my parish. I believe I have a right to request that my local parish institute a tried tine mass into its Mass schedule. I would be happy if the parish would accommodate me. Logistically it would be tough. My church has the tabernacle hidden away in a side room. Also, if the parish priest refuses what recourse do I have?

For one thing, be prepared to do all the hard work, do the tough stuff, and raise and spend all the money. Your group must volunteer to obtain the necessary missals, missing vestments (maniples and birettas), training videos. You must be willing to learn the rubrics and train the altar servers. Be sure you let Father know what you will take care of all these things and that all he needs to do is learn to say the Mass but that all the legwork is going to be yours.

This way, Father knows that you’re willing to do what it takes for the Extraordinary Form to be offered and that you’re willing to relieve him of as much burden as possible.

And of course, if Father refuses, while in theory you have recourse to your Bishop, and then the Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei in Rome, it’s probably more realistic to expect that if Father refuses, that’s the end of it.

That the tabernacle is in a side room is a non-issue and the least of your worries. So is a free-standing altar. That’s not a problem either.

 

[porthos11]

I recently attended my first tridentine mass although not at my parish. I believe I have a right to request that my local parish institute a tried tine mass into its Mass schedule. I would be happy if the parish would accommodate me. Logistically it would be tough. My church has the tabernacle hidden away in a side room. Also, if the parish priest refuses what recourse do I have?

Do you have a stable group that will consistently attend the Masses, as required by Summorum Pontificum?

And if so, is your group willing to spend the time, effort and money to ensure you have all the resources needed for the Mass (missing vestments such as birettas and maniples, training videos, altar missals)? Will your group be willing to train the altar servers and maybe even fly an FSSP priest in to train Father himself if necessary?

 

[sw85]

Arlington VA is definitely, from what I hear, rich in EFs and more traditional OF Masses (I’ve read of several churches there recently that renovated the sanctuary, reinstalling altar rails and rebuilding high altars). As has been said, the general rule of thumb is to find other potentially interested people first, then approach the pastor to request (humbly) that an EF Mass be celebrated to accommodate your legitimate spiritual aspirations. Be aware that your group may need to undertake considerable expense to make it happen, so be ready to support the priest in doing so if he’s willing. Among other things, he will need to be trained to say it (a workshop in the area would be best, or failing that a DVD of the sort put out by the FSSP), a traditional Missale Romanum, ideally (but not necessarily) Roman vestments, altar cards, a maniple, etc. Also, if you expect high Masses to be celebrated, think about organizing a schola. Finally, take the initiative to advertise the Mass and bring in people from elsewhere.

Be aware that it is unlikely that you will get an EF Mass on the schedule early on. It will be necessary to show that there is stable interest first (I’m given to understand that the diocesan chancery has to approve a change to the Mass schedule). More likely, your pastor (if he is supportive) would celebrate the EF Mass privately and invite you and the group to attend, and perhaps do this a few more times. If interest is stable, he can look at putting it regularly on the schedule.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

Una Voce has some suggested guidelines for requesting a TLM.

 

[pianistclare]

I agree with Suscipe.
In our case, our pastor doesn’t offer it because :

1. He doesn’t know Latin well enough to offer the Mass worthily (that’s a consideration you know, the priests don’t just blindly recite prayers)
2. He would have to get permission to lose one of the English or Spanish Masses for Latin on a weekend because he’s the only priest we have and is limited to the number of Masses he can do alone each day.
3. Nobody in the parish seems to want it enough to warrant a change in the schedule. In the three years that he has been here, only one person ever asked for it, and he felt like it was just a random question, not a burning desire on the person’s part)
4. There is a parish in the Diocese (not nearby, but it’s there) that is approved for the TLM for all their Masses, and people are free to go there if they feel strongly enough about it. People do trek over there and are very happy there.

The makeup of the parish, the disposition of the Pastor and the approval of the Bishop are all contingencies.

 

[pianistclare]

Do you have a stable group that will consistently attend the Masses, as required by Summorum Pontificum?

And if so, is your group willing to spend the time, effort and money to ensure you have all the resources needed for the Mass (missing vestments such as birettas and maniples, training videos, altar missals)? Will your group be willing to train the altar servers and maybe even fly an FSSP priest in to train Father himself if necessary?

Oh yeah…I forgot about all that as well.

 

[YoungTradCath]

So such a Mass cannot be said at an altar without a tabernacle?

No, what we are saying is that it can be. It most certainly can be celebrated on an altar without a tabernacle and often is!

It doesn’t matter where the tabernacle is–well it does, but not for the purposes of this conversation.

A freestanding altar can host a Tridentine Mass 100%.

 

[OraLabora]

I recently attended my first tridentine mass although not at my parish. I believe I have a right to request that my local parish institute a tried tine mass into its Mass schedule. I would be happy if the parish would accommodate me. Logistically it would be tough. My church has the tabernacle hidden away in a side room. Also, if the parish priest refuses what recourse do I have?

You don’t have the right to request it. You do have the right to request it on behalf of a stable group that wishes it. If you don’t have a stable group, then it’s pointless to ask. Better to first ask around the parish to find if anyone else is interested, and willing to commit energy and money as pointed out above, to make it happen.

And you may still get refused for all the good reasons mentioned here.

 

[ProVobis]

Arlington VA is definitely, from what I hear, rich in EFs and more traditional OF Masses

That’s why I would be wary of adding one where it would have the potential of taking people away from their already established EFs. It would be nice to have one in your own backyard but the financial reality is that the diocese doesn’t like to see declining numbers in any Mass attendance. Puts a lot of stress on those who still remain, among other things.

.

 

[sw85]

That’s why I would be wary of adding one where it would have the potential of taking people away from their already established EFs. It would be nice to have one in your own backyard but the financial reality is that the diocese doesn’t like to see declining numbers in any Mass attendance. Puts a lot of stress on those who still remain, among other things.

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I wouldn’t necessarily see this as an impediment. I think there’s a certain proportion of people that actively want an EF Mass and would organize to get it, a certain proportion of people (myself included) that actively want an EF Mass but don’t have the time/resources to commit to organizing to get it, a certain proportion that would like and attend an EF Mass but don’t have time/resources, a certain proportion that would like an EF Mass but don’t even know because they’ve never been to one and wouldn’t be inclined to go unless a convenient opportunity were necessarily presented to them, etc. In other words, it’s not necessarily the case that there are only so many people in the diocese who want an EF Mass and therefore a new EF Mass can only stretch them thinner. It attracts new devotees all the time.

 

[ProVobis]

I wouldn’t necessarily see this as an impediment. I think there’s a certain proportion of people that actively want an EF Mass and would organize to get it, a certain proportion of people (myself included) that actively want an EF Mass but don’t have the time/resources to commit to organizing to get it, a certain proportion that would like and attend an EF Mass but don’t have time/resources, a certain proportion that would like an EF Mass but don’t even know because they’ve never been to one and wouldn’t be inclined to go unless a convenient opportunity were necessarily presented to them, etc. In other words, it’s not necessarily the case that there are only so many people in the diocese who want an EF Mass and therefore a new EF Mass can only stretch them thinner. It attracts new devotees all the time.

And that’s a good argument. I didn’t mean to discourage.

 

[RosslynV]

Some good insight-- a lot of smart folks on this site!

Why though, should a group pushing for this Mass have to pay for vestmests, misseletes, etc? My diocesis has ample funds. Then again, since the EF is already being offered locally I do foresee that they may be wary on contributing funds.

I did bring up this issue to the priest after Confession yesterday. Get this-- he said he wouldn’t even be able to conduct a tridentine mass since he only took 1 Latin course at the seminary. So if young seminarians are not learning Latin, the tridentine mass could go the way of the dinosaur.

 

[OraLabora]

Some good insight-- a lot of smart folks on this site!

Why though, should a group pushing for this Mass have to pay for vestmests, misseletes, etc? My diocesis has ample funds. Then again, since the EF is already being offered locally I do foresee that they may be wary on contributing funds.

I did bring up this issue to the priest after Confession yesterday. Get this-- he said he wouldn’t even be able to conduct a tridentine mass since he only took 1 Latin course at the seminary. So if young seminarians are not learning Latin, the tridentine mass could go the way of the dinosaur.

It’s more than just the language. The Latin is actually relatively simple and most phrases come back at each Mass. It’s easy to learn how to pronounce them and what they mean.

On the other hand the rubrics are very complex. I have an old pre-Vatican II ceremonial. For instance, depending on the altar arrangement, the exact pattern and number of swings of the censer are prescribed. It would take a fair bit of training to get beyond the ability to do more than just a low Mass. It’s doable but requires training, time and commitment, and for some places that can mean flying a priest out to a place to learn, or flying a priest in that can teach. I doubt the diocese would be willing to pay for all that; many probably couldn’t afford to anyway.

SP seems to have raised expectations beyond the practical realities. Fortunately there are societies like FSSP, a few Benedictine monasteries, and others that have as mission to keep the EF alive and well; so you don’t have to worry about it disappearing. Those of us who prefer the OF but with Gregorian chant and liturgy according to the rubrics are jealous

We have fewer resources keen on making the OF Mass what it was meant to be; although again a few Benedictine monasteries (Benedictines take liturgy seriously) help in doing that but in general it’s been a pretty bleak 40 years liturgically-speaking.

 

[pianistclare]

Some good insight-- a lot of smart folks on this site!

Why though, should a group pushing for this Mass have to pay for vestmests, misseletes, etc? My diocesis has ample funds. Then again, since the EF is already being offered locally I do foresee that they may be wary on contributing funds.

I did bring up this issue to the priest after Confession yesterday. Get this-- he said he wouldn’t even be able to conduct a tridentine mass since he only took 1 Latin course at the seminary. So if young seminarians are not learning Latin, the tridentine mass could go the way of the dinosaur.

Exactly.
Did you know that priests buy their own vestments? Typically their families and friends buy them a set…sometimes an incomplete set if they are from a poor country. They also are given their chalices. The Knight of Columbus donate chalices in memory of a deceased Knight, but some families also buy those. That’s why the vestments change when your pastor does . He brings his own stuff.
The Diocese does not generally pay for anything at the parish level. The parish buys everything: tabernacles, candle holders, Lectionaries, the Sacramentary, etc.
That’s why in so many parishes there is a book detailing which families donated what in memory of someone.
My pastor said he doesn’t know a bit of Latin. My Greek professor, who is also a Canon Lawyer knows Latin, Greek and Hebrew fluently. But still prefers the OF.
The bottom line, is, there has to be a substantial amount of people who will attend.
Once you establish that…you may gain some traction.