Possible response to criticism of Vatican's wealth

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3DOCTORS

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You know, when people say “Why doesn’t the Vatican sell all those artworks and give the money to the poor?” - I say “Sell them to whom? Some art dealer? Then why doesn’t the art dealer sell them to someone else and give the money to the poor?” All it does is kick the stone down the road! More people can enjoy the artworks and things in the Vatican because they aren’t jealously guarded.

Clever, or has this argument already been made?

I just am waiting until someone brings it up because of all the news coverage the Vatican itself is getting these days. 🤷
 
considering that the Vatican is the smallest country in the world at 0.2 miles and the art etc that they have has been collected and given over 2000 years. Even if the Vatican sold all that stuff to feed the poor, there will still be poor and wouldn’t solve the problem. All that stuff there belong actually to all of us Catholics, not to the Pope. People who say this things are not doing anything anyway for the poor themselves. Judas who was stealing himself from the treasury used that argument against the women who anointed Jesus’ feet. He wasn’t concerned about the poor but his own greed. So when someone uses this argument, they are hiding their own selfish greed in their hearts and want to make up something about someone else to deflect it.
 
3DOCTORS said:
You know, when people say “Why doesn’t the Vatican sell all those artworks and give the money to the poor?” - I say “Sell them to whom? Some art dealer? Then why doesn’t the art dealer sell them to someone else and give the money to the poor?” All it does is kick the stone down the road! More people can enjoy the artworks and things in the Vatican because they aren’t jealously guarded.

Clever, or has this argument already been made?

I just am waiting until someone brings it up because of all the news coverage the Vatican itself is getting these days. 🤷
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I would use the Business 101 argument. As of 2009, the estimation of the value of all the art and buildings and such in the Vatican was 500 million dollars. the Vatican could sell it all and give 500 million dollars to the poor once. But wait! All that art and those cool buildings bring in a lot of tourists. Also as of 2009, the Vatican takes in some more than 200 million dollars in tourism each hear. After using portions of it to pay bills and employees, it tends to give the rest to the needy. Lets say that they need half of it for themselves. Then that’s still 100 million dollars a year to the needy - money that the Church would not have to donate if there were no art to bring in tourists.

So the options are:
  1. a one time donation of 500 million dollars, or
  2. a yearly donation of 100 million dollars for many, many, many years.
What does business 101 say is the smart choice?
 
There are schools that have more net worth and spending budgets than the Vatican. Harvard is one, if I recall.

Ask them why Harvard hasn’t sold all of their wealth and given it to the poor.

What’s that, they’ll say? Harvard has goals and missions that help a lot of people, and it needs a certain amount of money to do that?

Well, by jove, so does the Vatican, and they give FAR more of their resources to charity than Harvard ever dreamed of doing.

Case closed.
 
Farsight001 said:
I would use the Business 101 argument. As of 2009, the estimation of the value of all the art and buildings and such in the Vatican was 500 million dollars. the Vatican could sell it all and give 500 million dollars to the poor once. But wait! All that art and those cool buildings bring in a lot of tourists. Also as of 2009, the Vatican takes in some more than 200 million dollars in tourism each hear. After using portions of it to pay bills and employees, it tends to give the rest to the needy. Lets say that they need half of it for themselves. Then that’s still 100 million dollars a year to the needy - money that the Church would not have to donate if there were no art to bring in tourists.

So the options are:
  1. a one time donation of 500 million dollars, or
  2. a yearly donation of 100 million dollars for many, many, many years.
What does business 101 say is the smart choice?
Click to expand...
I will use this one!👍
 
Farsight001 said:
I would use the Business 101 argument. As of 2009, the estimation of the value of all the art and buildings and such in the Vatican was 500 million dollars. the Vatican could sell it all and give 500 million dollars to the poor once. But wait! All that art and those cool buildings bring in a lot of tourists. Also as of 2009, the Vatican takes in some more than 200 million dollars in tourism each hear. After using portions of it to pay bills and employees, it tends to give the rest to the needy. Lets say that they need half of it for themselves. Then that’s still 100 million dollars a year to the needy - money that the Church would not have to donate if there were no art to bring in tourists.

So the options are:
  1. a one time donation of 500 million dollars, or
  2. a yearly donation of 100 million dollars for many, many, many years.
What does business 101 say is the smart choice?
Click to expand...
Very well explained.👍
 
robwar said:
considering that the Vatican is the smallest country in the world at 0.2 miles and the art etc that they have has been collected and given over 2000 years. Even if the Vatican sold all that stuff to feed the poor, there will still be poor and wouldn’t solve the problem. All that stuff there belong actually to all of us Catholics, not to the Pope. People who say this things are not doing anything anyway for the poor themselves. Judas who was stealing himself from the treasury used that argument against the women who anointed Jesus’ feet. He wasn’t concerned about the poor but his own greed. So when someone uses this argument, they are hiding their own selfish greed in their hearts and want to make up something about someone else to deflect it.
Click to expand...
Wow that is quite judgement and very negative.
 
3DOCTORS said:
You know, when people say “Why doesn’t the Vatican sell all those artworks and give the money to the poor?” - I say “Sell them to whom? Some art dealer? Then why doesn’t the art dealer sell them to someone else and give the money to the poor?” All it does is kick the stone down the road! More people can enjoy the artworks and things in the Vatican because they aren’t jealously guarded.

Clever, or has this argument already been made?

I just am waiting until someone brings it up because of all the news coverage the Vatican itself is getting these days. 🤷
Click to expand...
My response is, “Why don’t you sell your television/MP3/smartphone for the benefit of a starving child?”

Once you point out other people’s excesses, they generally shut up.
 
Bezant said:
My response is, “Why don’t you sell your television/MP3/smartphone for the benefit of a starving child?”

Once you point out other people’s excesses, they generally shut up.
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This is true. I liked hearing the others’ responses too - with one exception - the one before yours, but oh, well, can’t win 'em all. I don’t see how what Robwar pointed out was judgmental and negative. :twocents:
 
Isn’t there something in the Bible about this when Mary Magdalene used the expensive perfume to wash Jesus’ feet?
 
Farsight001 said:
I would use the Business 101 argument. As of 2009, the estimation of the value of all the art and buildings and such in the Vatican was 500 million dollars. the Vatican could sell it all and give 500 million dollars to the poor once. But wait! All that art and those cool buildings bring in a lot of tourists. Also as of 2009, the Vatican takes in some more than 200 million dollars in tourism each hear. After using portions of it to pay bills and employees, it tends to give the rest to the needy. Lets say that they need half of it for themselves. Then that’s still 100 million dollars a year to the needy - money that the Church would not have to donate if there were no art to bring in tourists.

So the options are:
  1. a one time donation of 500 million dollars, or
  2. a yearly donation of 100 million dollars for many, many, many years.
What does business 101 say is the smart choice?
Click to expand...
I don’t think there’s any question about the assets that you list belong to The Catholic Church and should stay there. I think the questions center around the 8.3 billion estimated to be in the Vatican Bank along with the irregularities found by Pope Benedict. This could well be one of the larger problems that Pope Francis inherits.
I think he’ll need business 102 to solve it
 
robwar said:
considering that the Vatican is the smallest country in the world at 0.2 miles and the art etc that they have has been collected and given over 2000 years. Even if the Vatican sold all that stuff to feed the poor, there will still be poor and wouldn’t solve the problem. All that stuff there belong actually to all of us Catholics, not to the Pope. People who say this things are not doing anything anyway for the poor themselves. Judas who was stealing himself from the treasury used that argument against the women who anointed Jesus’ feet. He wasn’t concerned about the poor but his own greed. So when someone uses this argument, they are hiding their own selfish greed in their hearts and want to make up something about someone else to deflect it.
Click to expand...
And Bishop Emeritus Benedict XVI’s pension is only $2,500 a month. I think that’s pretty modest by most standards.
 
livingwordunity said:
And Bishop Emeritus Benedict XVI’s pension is only $2,500 a month. I think that’s pretty modest by most standards.
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Indeed. I wonder how many C.E.O.'s, school presidents, and other folks these days would be willing to live on that much a month, and give up their huge salaries and bonuses to help the poor and needy.
 
Suppose all that money runs out. What would happen then? Simple. The anti-Catholics would still be whining!
 
shipwrkd said:
I don’t think the anti Catholics are the only ones concerned. Pope Benedict himself ran into a brick wall trying to put some transparency to “the most secret bank in the world”. IMO, this is a Catholic issue.

nonprofitquarterly.org/policysocial-context/21835-at-the-vatican-the-most-secretive-nonprofit-bank-in-the-world.html
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Ah yes, the issue of the Vatican Bank.
I’m talking about his the issue of wealth had been used by anti-Catholic polemicists to the point of insanity.
 
You know around the corner where I live there was this restuarant, but two years before it being a retaurant it was a karate gym, now its sometype of protestant church. People on the outside looking in at the Vatican feel the way they do…
 
I am hoping that Pope Francis whom I already love will do a lot to change this situation. When he came out for his first blessing he had on a wood or bronze cross. He put on the elaborate stole for the blessing only and took it off right after. He rode a bus and not a papal limo.

In his first Mass he wore simple vestments. no miles of lace and not satin damask.
The chalice was a simple gold cup and not encrusted with $1,000s of dollars worth of gems.

Can you imagine St Francis of Assisi wearing a triple tiara and being carried in a litter?
 
3DOCTORS said:
You know, when people say “Why doesn’t the Vatican sell all those artworks and give the money to the poor?” - I say “Sell them to whom? Some art dealer? Then why doesn’t the art dealer sell them to someone else and give the money to the poor?” All it does is kick the stone down the road! More people can enjoy the artworks and things in the Vatican because they aren’t jealously guarded.

Clever, or has this argument already been made?

I just am waiting until someone brings it up because of all the news coverage the Vatican itself is getting these days. 🤷
Click to expand...
John Allen has also addressed the issue of Vatican ‘‘wealth.’’
• The myth of Vatican wealth. “At the Vatican, everything is for sale, in the popular mind,” Allen said. In reality, the Vatican’s annual operating budget is about $260 million. Allen contrasted that to Harvard University, which has an annual operating budget of $1.3 billion.
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“ (Harvard) could run five Vaticans every year and still have pocket change left over for an endowed chair,” Allen said, equating the Vatican’s patrimony - all the assets it could sell - to that of a medium-sized Catholic university. Its total patrimony is $770 million. The University of Notre Dame’s endowment is four and a half times greater, he said.
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Allen noted that while people often assume a significant monetary value attached to the artwork the Vatican holds, it is not for sale.
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“ The Holy See’s point of view is that the artwork is part of the patrimony of humanity,” Allen said. It is listed as having a cash value of one euro.
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catholiccitizens.org/platform/platformview.asp?c=14358
The Vatican has issued its income and expenses for the 2010 fiscal year. In short, the Vatican took in €245,195,561.00 ($356,281,000.00) as income and spent €235,347,437.00 ($341,972,000.00)- a surplus of €9,848,124.00/$14,309,800.00
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I always get a good laugh when people talk about the ‘waste’ at the Vatican. Many people make it out to seem that the Pope swims in money like Scrooge McDuck. In honesty, the Vatican operates with very little money, especially considering all that the Vatican does (restoration of priceless art, feeding the hungry, wages for lay employees, education, aid to the poor, etc.) The Vatican operates, arguably, the largest organization in the world, and yet it has a relatively low budget. You might want to check my math, but let’s compare:
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The University of Georgia has a budget of $1 billion (difference of $658,028,000).
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The State of Florida in 2010-11 had a state budget of $70.5 billion (difference of $70,264,652,563).
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The City of Atlanta in FY2011 has a total budget of $559,523,746 (difference of $217,551,746).
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The Southern Baptist Association has a budget of about $600,000,000 (difference of $243,719,000)
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Swimming in money? No, I think not.
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shipofsaintpeter.com/2011/07/vatican-finances-compared.html
 
_Abyssinia said:
John Allen has also addressed the issue of Vatican ‘‘wealth.’’

catholiccitizens.org/platform/platformview.asp?c=14358

.

shipofsaintpeter.com/2011/07/vatican-finances-compared.html
Click to expand...
I don’t think there is a question about the Vatican City’s holdings and financial transactions.
The questions are about The Vatican Bank which who’s holdings are separate from any of the assets that John Allen speaks of.

cnbc.com/id/100554748

Eight billion is a drop in the bucket compared to some other banks, but those banks are completely transparent, or at least they get audited. Try Googling the net worth of the Vatican Bank and you’ll find secrecy to the point that any estimation is a guess. I don’t understand the secrecy and obviously, neither did Pope Benedict
 
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