Possible Scripture for pro life?

[StDasiusFollowr]

Hello all,

When I was praying the Rosary I think I figured something out. I am a recently returned Catholic so I would like to check my thought to make sure it is licit.

When Mary visited Elizabeth, pregnant with Jesus, Elizabeth’s child jumped in her womb. Elizabeth also proclaimed that she know who was inside Mary. To me this means, that was Jesus in there, not just a fetus waiting to become more. John also had to be there, soul and all, to notice who came near. If life does not begin until a child is born, why would John have jumped, and why would Elizabeth have cared so much for Mary’s unborn child?

My second question is, is there any Church teaching on how pregnant Mary was at the time of the visitation?

Thanks for your help.

 

[Veritas41]

Hello all,

When I was praying the Rosary I think I figured something out. I am a recently returned Catholic so I would like to check my thought to make sure it is licit.

When Mary visited Elizabeth, pregnant with Jesus, Elizabeth’s child jumped in her womb. Elizabeth also proclaimed that she know who was inside Mary. To me this means, that was Jesus in there, not just a fetus waiting to become more. John also had to be there, soul and all, to notice who came near. If life does not begin until a child is born, why would John have jumped, and why would Elizabeth have cared so much for Mary’s unborn child?

My second question is, is there any Church teaching on how pregnant Mary was at the time of the visitation?

Thanks for your help.

I recall, many years ago, Mother Teresa making a comment on the sanctity of human life and the unborn, that it was an unborn child, John the Baptist, who was the first to recognize Jesus as the Messiah. As for how far along Mary was at the visitation, we can figure out from the Gospel text: Luke 1:24 says Elizabeth stayed in seclusion for five months after getting pregnant, and verse 26 says in the 6th month the archangel Gabriel appeared to Mary at the Annunciation, so Mary conceived 6 months into Elizabeth’s pregnancy. It says Mary went to Elizabeth’s at that time (verse 39) and stayed 3 months (verse 56).

 

[thistle]

Hello all,

When I was praying the Rosary I think I figured something out. I am a recently returned Catholic so I would like to check my thought to make sure it is licit.

When Mary visited Elizabeth, pregnant with Jesus, Elizabeth’s child jumped in her womb. Elizabeth also proclaimed that she know who was inside Mary. To me this means, that was Jesus in there, not just a fetus waiting to become more. John also had to be there, soul and all, to notice who came near. If life does not begin until a child is born, why would John have jumped, and why would Elizabeth have cared so much for Mary’s unborn child?

My second question is, is there any Church teaching on how pregnant Mary was at the time of the visitation?

Thanks for your help.

At the Annunciation the Angel told Mary her cousin Elizabeth was in her sixth month with John and as Mary visited Elizabeth before John was born then it would seem logical that Mary was anything up to 3 months when she went to Elizabeth.

 

[StDasiusFollowr]

Thanks for the answers in regard to how far into the pregnancy Mary was at the visitation.

What do you think about the theory that John the Baptists reaction to their presence is proof of life in the womb?

Thanks in advance.

 

[thistle]

Thanks for the answers in regard to how far into the pregnancy Mary was at the visitation.

What do you think about the theory that John the Baptists reaction to their presence is proof of life in the womb?

Thanks in advance.

Not quite sure I understand the question. If a woman is pregnant then obviously there is a living being inside her. Life begins at conception.

 

[Veritas41]

Thanks for the answers in regard to how far into the pregnancy Mary was at the visitation.

What do you think about the theory that John the Baptists reaction to their presence is proof of life in the womb?

Thanks in advance.

Well, the problem is the pro-abortion side is very often willing to acknowledge there is biological life in the womb, but they deny the life is a “person” and therefore worthy of protection. And how they describe “person” can vary – it’s completely arbitrary. Some of the definitions of personhood would make newborns and toddlers not persons.

We can definitely see from this verse that John the Baptist is very much alive, and I think demonstrate he characteristics of being a person by his reaction to Jesus, whom he cannot see, and must have known Who Jesus was through spiritual means because he couldn’t have known otherwise. A non-person wouldn’t have spiritual awareness or respond to another person joyfully like that (the word used for “leap” is also used in the Old Testament when David dances before th ark)

 

[lak611]

Here are some other pro-life Scripture verses: “If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief folllow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.” (If she delivers, prematurely, but the mother and the baby are ok). “And if any mischief follow; then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.” (If the mother or baby dies, the person responsible deserves the death penalty). From Exodus 21:22-25, KJV, sentences in parentheses are my explanation.

 

[Valke2]

Here are some other pro-life Scripture verses: “If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief folllow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.” (If she delivers, prematurely, but the mother and the baby are ok). “And if any mischief follow; then thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.” (If the mother or baby dies, the person responsible deserves the death penalty). From Exodus 21:22-25, KJV, sentences in parentheses are my explanation.

That’s not what the verse says. If the unborn baby dies, a fine is imposed. I just don’t understand how Christians have interpeted this verse otherwise. There’s another thread on this verse where this is debated. I guess the reinvention/reinterpetation of the Jewish bible without any regard to the jewish tradition or methods for understanding Torah is one of the major differences between the two faiths.

 

[papaspicy]

Well, the problem is the pro-abortion side is very often willing to acknowledge there is biological life in the womb, but they deny the life is a “person” and therefore worthy of protection. And how they describe “person” can vary – it’s completely arbitrary. Some of the definitions of personhood would make newborns and toddlers not persons.

We can definitely see from this verse that John the Baptist is very much alive, and I think demonstrate he characteristics of being a person by his reaction to Jesus, whom he cannot see, and must have known Who Jesus was through spiritual means because he couldn’t have known otherwise. A non-person wouldn’t have spiritual awareness or respond to another person joyfully like that (the word used for “leap” is also used in the Old Testament when David dances before th ark)

And the other problem with this proof is that it comes from a book that many on the pro-abortion side couldn’t care less about. Biblical proofs rarely work for non-believers. I could tell you a story about twins sing duets and discussing politics while in the womb, but none of you would believe it. This is how people without faith in the bible approach biblical proofs. But I am off topic, as usual. My reading of this passage in Luke however has always been a bit different. John’s leap occurs at the sound of Mary’s voice, making the allusion to David leaping before the ark important. Mary is the new ark, bearing the of the Word of God. I guess my point is that this event clearly shows that a pre-born child at six months has the ability to act as an independent life and a person, but that this passage is silent on any activity of a pre-born child at less than three-months. But of course the fact that Jesus didn’t leap as well shouldn’t be taken as proof of the other side. (I don’t mean to nitpick at one of the greatest moments in human history, but I’m just being my overly analytical self. )

 

[StDasiusFollowr]

(I don’t mean to nitpick at one of the greatest moments in human history, but I’m just being my overly analytical self. )

Please do nitpick, provided no one gets nasty. Open discussion with knowledgeable people is how our spirituality and understanding grows.

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.