Possibly racist statue?

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larsenl1 said:
So it appears that you are prejudiced in favor of people who agree with you.
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It seems to be like you make a lot of assumptions.
TimothyH said:
The statue probably had nothing to do with racism.

In the Bible, black is often used to symbolize death, error, fear, and uncertainty in the Bible. Black is even used to symbolize judgement.

I looked, and there was a black horse, and its rider held a scale in his hand. (Revelation 6:5)

Jesus is betrayed in the dark of night and Jesus even asks the captors why they have to come out at night like robbers.

Day after day I was with you in the temple area, and you did not seize me; but this is your hour, the time for the power of darkness.” (Luke 22:53)

White symbolizes truth, freedom from error, confidence, victory, magesty, cleanliness, purity and purification.

***Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. *** (Psalm 51:7)

See that made sense and I’m not prejudiced, in fact I gave praise to people for their thoughts on the matter at the beginning…

I looked, and there was a white horse, and its rider had a bow. 3 He was given a crown, and he rode forth victorious to further his victories. (Revelation 6:2)

He said to me, “These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:14)

-Tim-
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See that made sense, I praise everyone for their answers if you look at the beginning page of the thread.
 
TimothyH said:
The statue probably had nothing to do with racism.

In the Bible, black is often used to symbolize death, error, fear, and uncertainty in the Bible. Black is even used to symbolize judgement.

I looked, and there was a black horse, and its rider held a scale in his hand. (Revelation 6:5)

Jesus is betrayed in the dark of night and Jesus even asks the captors why they have to come out at night like robbers.

Day after day I was with you in the temple area, and you did not seize me; but this is your hour, the time for the power of darkness.” (Luke 22:53)

White symbolizes truth, freedom from error, confidence, victory, magesty, cleanliness, purity and purification.

***Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. *** (Psalm 51:7)

See that made sense and I’m not prejudiced, in fact I gave praise to people for their thoughts on the matter at the beginning…

I looked, and there was a white horse, and its rider had a bow. 3 He was given a crown, and he rode forth victorious to further his victories. (Revelation 6:2)

He said to me, “These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Revelation 7:14)

-Tim-
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Road2Damascus said:
And on doing an image search, I see solid colored often all white statues… and in the images, I see Satan portrayed as a “Caucasian” as well.

And if we ourselves were to get a solid colored statue, ivory colored for example and we were able to paint him ourselves…it would be interesting what each of us would do. In some images I found, I still think the Satan figure still appears to have Caucasian features. Might we think that this is racist too??? No, because probably for me, I would think another Caucasian type painted it. Now this is getting a bit on the delicate side, so I don’t mean to do that.

I think finding what is probably one very old painting of this, I would paint Satan as just a Caucasian like in the painting though, while Michael is close to being white as snow, the Devil seems very fleshy, close to a sun tan type color.
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The way I see it extremely few humans have ever witnessed seeing Satan in all his Evil Formidability. And really who would want to see Evil expressed at its greatest grotesque presence. And those who have would fail describing Satan in his full essence which would be lacking even in the best articulate form. Being a supernatural being he lacks describing except that which is not Good. A great supernatural being of many faces of deception, attributes and master of illusion.

Even the best masterful artist couldn’t paint this on a canvass.

newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm
 
I’m sure Satan would love for us to argue about the color he doesn’t have.
 
followingtheway said:
But Hitler was white. Do we do know the devil’s color?

I don’t WANT to think it’s racist, I’m light skinned myself, I just happened to see the statue Michael was light skinned (which didn’t bother me) but he was crushing a devil without horns and a tail, he looked like a regular angel except with black hair, black wings, and brown skin, and I thought that was kind of odd.

And that’s great, I’m light skinned and those images of Mary are beautiful but lets say there was black Madonna crushing a light/apicrot-skinned devil. Wouldn’t that be odd as well? 🤷
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Why?

And you failed even to post an image of the statue, so how should we know?

People who look for racism everywhere generally find it.
 
centurionguard said:
The way I see it extremely few humans have ever witnessed seeing Satan in all his Evil Formidability. And really who would want to see Evil expressed at its greatest grotesque presence. And those who have would fail describing Satan in his full essence which would be lacking even in the best articulate form. Being a supernatural being he lacks describing except that which is not Good. A great supernatural being of many faces of deception, attributes and master of illusion.
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Deception is they key word here, I think. When people have encountered him, even from the beginning in the garden, they were not afraid. Depicting him artistically, one is faced with the inevitable question of depicting to the best of their ability a fearsome evil, or something seemingly benign. I liked his depiction in the Passion movie. Vacant, evil, ugly, but not grotesque- but you are right.

Angels, on the other hand, usually do inspire fear. They inspire awe. Again, depiction seems impossible. Does the artist capture ferocity or goodness?

Depending on what is being depicted, I suppose each artist must make decisions. In the context of a battle between St. Michael and the devil, I guess I’d opt for a very fierce Michael but I don’t know how I would depict the devil. I am not an artist- I am merely a casual student.

Any depiction will fall short. Art, however, generally does not depict reality, per se, but points to it. An artist cannot capture what the devil looks like- to think one could is silly. An artist cannot capture the fullness the devil, or angel, or even any person. He can inspire an emotion that he associates with the scene he is depicting. Or he can use various images, perhaps symbols, to tell a story beyond what is immediately captured. He can change your perception of his subject by pointing to a different aspect or emotion, or he can reinforce or flesh out what you already believe.

I guess without seeing the objet d’art that is being discussed, we cannot discuss it fairly. But I will stand by what I said initially: if the difference between the angel and the devil is skin color and features representative of a given race, the artist has whether purposefully or not, pointed to race in an inappropriate way. He may be channeling old prejudice, he may himself be prejudiced, or it may have been accidental.

The scripture verses cited above (by another poster) have, at times, been used to justify racism- but they do not and the Church condemns racism. Though I am as white as they come, and my Swedish/Irish heritage makes even slight darkening of the skin impossible, I am as needy as anyone else of cleansing. I doubt the person who posted them intended to use them as a justification for racism. I point this out not by way of disagreeing with the symbolism of colors in scripture and elsewhere, but instead to resist taking a further step and associating those colors with race- as it seemed to me the artist in the OP did.
 
Actually, too Our Lady of Czestohowa is something like that too, a Black Madonna if not the same, being in a room with candles so they say, gave it a bit of a black look through the centuries.



this is a good image and must have been painted hundreds of years ago. It is also clear to see. There are many representations of St. Michael. Maybe it looks a bit like a renaissance painting or slightly after that era. I believe the devil here looks in complexion, what they call “swarthy” yet at the same time, St. Michael looks Caucasian, here, I think the representation of his adversary looks Caucasian but could be interpreted to be a person of darker color.

I did not bring the image out earlier, some forums have started not accepting some images unless cleared because of reasons like broadband usage, etc. So if this is not proper. please someone tell me right away.
 
followingtheway said:
Hello, everyone, before I post this let me just say I am Catholic and very devoted to St. Michael and not easily offended but what I saw startled me…

I was shopping around for things when there was a Catholic section, the images were beautiful and there was a lot of St. Michael statues but one caught my eye it was Michael crushing on the devil but there was something about the devil.

It had no horns, no tail, it just had brown skin. I thought that was kind of racist wasn’t it? 🤷 That the devil was portrayed as having brown skin, while the angel had Caucasian features. Associating brown or black skin with darkness and bad stuff while associating white skin with good stuff.

What are your thoughts?
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Maybe the artist was simply trying to depict the angel as the good guy and the devil as the bad guy, by making their colors white and black, respectively. Like cowboy hats in old westerns. White for the good guy and black for the bad guy. I never thought that a black hat for the bad guy was racist.

Either that, or the devil’s skin is dark from being burned by all those flames in hell. 😃 That’s the best I can come up with.
 
RosaryFan said:
Maybe the artist was simply trying to depict the angel as the good guy and the devil as the bad guy, by making their colors white and black, respectively. Like cowboy hats in old westerns. White for the good guy and black for the bad guy. I never thought that a black hat for the bad guy was racist.

Either that, or the devil’s skin is dark from being burned by all those flames in hell. 😃 That’s the best I can come up with.
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I think that’s one of the best answers here! :yup: Good job 👍

God bless :byzsoc:

David
 
Here’s a website that gives agood history of cake lesson:
foodtimeline.org/foodcakes.html#devilsfood

Basically the difference between chocolate cake and devil’s food cake is the richness of the cake- more chocolate the richer deeper tastes. (So rich and tasty it must be a sin= devil.)
 
An interesting anecdote…

Some of us who are old enough may remember seeing the “Lawn Jockey” statue on the front lawn of many suburban homes. The statue was of a black man holding a lantern, dressed in what would appear to be a horse jockey’s uniform.



The common conception today is that the statue is highly racist. We would hardly dare to put such a statue on our front law for fear that someone would throw rocks through our window or something. But the real man upon which the statue is based was one of George Washington’s personal attendants, in charge of caring for the general’s horse. At Valley Forge, the man was ordered by the general to stay with his horse while he crossed the Deleware River. The man stood with George Washington’s horse all night and was found frozen to death the next day still gripping the lantern, obedient to the general’s command even to death.

My point is that the statue which many find racist was actually placed in the front yards of homes across America to honor a man who gave his life for the cause of liberty and freedom, and not only that, but the first black man known to have done so. The man is an american hero and we have to be careful about jumping to conclusions.

-Tim-
 
TimothyH said:
An interesting anecdote…

Some of us who are old enough may remember seeing the “Lawn Jockey” statue on the front lawn of many suburban homes. The statue was of a black man holding a lantern, dressed in what would appear to be a horse jockey’s uniform.

http://timhollingworth.webs.com/img/lawmjockey1.jpg

The common conception today is that the statue is highly racist. We would hardly dare to put such a statue on our front law for fear that someone would throw rocks through our window or something. But the real man upon which the statue is based was one of George Washington’s personal attendants, in charge of caring for the general’s horse. At Valley Forge, the man was ordered by the general to stay with his horse while he crossed the Deleware River. The man stood with George Washington’s horse all night and was found frozen to death the next day still gripping the lantern, obedient to the general’s command even to death.

My point is that the statue which many find racist was actually placed in the front yards of homes across America to honor a man who gave his life for the cause of liberty and freedom, and not only that, but the first black man known to have done so. The man is an american hero and we have to be careful about jumping to conclusions.

-Tim-
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:clapping::extrahappy:
 
Perhaps the reason that Satan is painted as North African or Turkish is because they were Muslim whereas the lighter Europeans were Catholic. Makes sense to me 🤷
 
Dakota_Roberts said:
Perhaps the reason that Satan is painted as North African or Turkish is because they were Muslim whereas the lighter Europeans were Catholic. Makes sense to me 🤷
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I think I heard today is the feast day of St. Louis, King of France. All I needed to add.
 
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