Post Vatican II Traditional Catholic?

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Ecce_homo_1

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Is it possible for a young man who has known nothing but post-Vatican II to be a Traditional Catholic?

I left this site awhile ago, but I had to rejoin after seeing this fourm, and honestly I have no desire to venture out of it, and I have a lot of questions about Traditional Catholicism.

I don’t even need a Latin Mass (since I would be completely lost during it anyway), I’ll settle for a Mass where there is at least a tiny bit of reverence. Maybe it’s my area but every parish I’ve been to is not reverent at all. My Parish is a beautiful old Church with no crucifix, no altar rails, a risen Christ and no cross above the altar, there may as well be no kneelers since most people either don’t kneel or do the half kneel. My Parish priest is a great guy, but I’ve heard him teach some pretty suspect things in his homilies. Confession for a Parish of over 4,500 people is down to 30 minutes on Saturday and everytime I’ve gone there’s been no more than three people waiting. And my last straw was watching a woman read a paper during last Sunday’s Mass, yes folks she was reading her morning paper. We had one young priest who was quite orthodox in his teaching, and he was great but less than a year he was gone.

So how can one be a traditional Catholic while attending Masses that have little to no reverence for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? I’m not a “holier than thou Catholic” I think I’m the opposite actually, the full smells and bells help my mind with the solemnity and reverence the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass deserves. Perhaps a better Catholic doesn’t need these things, but I think I do sicne I’m still learning a ton everyday, or at least it helps me. So if you have no problem concentrating on the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass at a very liberal Parish God bless you, you’re a better man than I.

How can one find a traditional Catholic Church without aligning themselves with those in schism? There are no FSSP or Institute of Christ the King Churches near me. Is it now down to just grin and bear it?
 
Yes it’s possible. You sound like you already are a traditional Catholic.

So how can one be a traditional Catholic while attending Masses that have little to no reverence for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass?

Keep praying for your parish, or look around your area and find a better one to go to - if at all possible. You know the truth about what a Mass is supposed to be like - maybe you could work with your parish to make some changes?

I’m not a “holier than thou Catholic” I think I’m the opposite actually, the full smells and bells help my mind with the solemnity and reverence the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass deserves.

That’s exactly what you’re supposed to do. Let the beauty enhance the solemnity and reverence of the Mass, so that it’s as if you were actually there with Christ at Calvary. Which is exactly what the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is!😉
 
You don’t say where you are located, but if you are in a city look for the small parishes, sometimes in the near downtown. Many times our former Bishop would send the more traditional priests to the small poor parishes.

Check for young assistant priests. Talk to them and see if they are traditonal. It seems many of the younger priests are more orthodox than their Pastor. If you can find one, let him know what you are looking for and I bet he will start working in the more reverent into his Masses since he is looking for the same things you are.

Good Luck.
 
ecce,

i am totally in the exact same boat - except we have a crucifix.

what has given me a lot of peace has been the schola that we have formed. a buddy of mine and i were “discussing” the state of liturgical music in the area, and he made a bold statement. “Why don’t we just start a schola?” i was formerly a bass in a large four-part choir at an anglican-use parish, and he was a trained cantor in a cathedral choir back home.

what the hey?!

our three-man group started out very simple, and in 2 years we have tripled in size. parishes are always very excited to have us, and we are branching out from simple hymns to things like vespers, tenebrae, weddings, funerals, ordinations, and even a couple of totally latin NO Masses.

now, there still is no TLM here, but if it ever comes up, i’ll know that the locals will be more open to it because of the schola’s regular appearances at the local parishes (4).

it makes me feel like i am doing something constructive besides just praying for a TLM.
 
Windmill said:
ecce,

i am totally in the exact same boat - except we have a crucifix.

what has given me a lot of peace has been the schola that we have formed. a buddy of mine and i were “discussing” the state of liturgical music in the area, and he made a bold statement. “Why don’t we just start a schola?” i was formerly a bass in a large four-part choir at an anglican-use parish, and he was a trained cantor in a cathedral choir back home.

what the hey?!

our three-man group started out very simple, and in 2 years we have tripled in size. parishes are always very excited to have us, and we are branching out from simple hymns to things like vespers, tenebrae, weddings, funerals, ordinations, and even a couple of totally latin NO Masses.

now, there still is no TLM here, but if it ever comes up, i’ll know that the locals will be more open to it because of the schola’s regular appearances at the local parishes (4).

it makes me feel like i am doing something constructive besides just praying for a TLM.
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That’s great you were able to start something like that, I’m rather talentless in that area, but I do agree that maybe I can do something to change things from the inside out. I know with the last priest we had we could’ve gotten something good going, he was very orthodox, young and full of zeal, which is why I think he was moved to a smaller Parish.

I remember I went to Virginia to visit my brother and visited a Church in Richmond, I can’t remember the name but they had like 12 altar boys in the traditional cassocks, quite a bit of Latin, incense, women wearing head coverings (~ 20% of the women, in my Church it’s 0%) just a very reverent Novus Ordo Mass, something I hadn’t seen for a long time, and I must admit I was jealous. Especially as I sat there this Sunday while a woman read her newspaper.

Like I said it may seem silly to some that I long for such outward symbols, maybe it means my faith is weak, and if that’s the case I’m O.K. with that, I have no problem admitting I have a long way to go. I listened to the latest Journey Home from EWTN on my IPOD this morning and the convert listed much the same things as the reason for his conversion. The need for stuff like contemplative prayer, gregorian chant, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the incense, the sacramentals, all these things converted him from an evangelical missionary to a Diaconate with the Catholic Church so I know it’s not just me.

What harm in bringing back the beautiful music, the incense, the reverence? People aren’t going to reject it or be bothered by it.
 
saintbenedictparish.org/category.cfm?uid=5990

Saint Benedict Parish, that’s the Church in Virginia I visited. What a great Parish. I gotta say I’m still jealous.

NOTE: I’m from South Brooklyn NY, Bay Ridge, Dyker Heights, Bensonhurst area…

I’m going to try my first TLM this Sunday, I found one offered in Park Slope Brooklyn I think.
 
Ecce_homo said:
**
I’m going to try my first TLM this Sunday, I found one offered in Park Slope Brooklyn I think.**
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You’ll probably never want to leave.

However, the first time it can seem overwhelming because it is so different. But you will recognize the parts of the Mass. Try to follow along in the missal as best as possible, but don’t worry if you can’t keep up.

By my third or fourth time I had it down pact.

As for what you should be doing…well, this was the same type of thing that motivated me to find a TLM parish. Next thing I knew, I was applying to seminary desiring to get into the Church and start to set things right. Maybe you will be blessed in the same way? 😛
 
“How can one find a traditional Catholic Church without aligning themselves with those in schism? There are no FSSP or Institute of Christ the King Churches near me. Is it now down to just grin and bear it?”

One can be truly Catholic in any situation we may find ourselves…are not all situations really just Divine Providence?

Ecce Homo,

I would ask first, if you believe traditional Catholic chapels are in schism, the why do you believe this? Do you have good reasons to believe this? Just curious.

Gorman
 
gorman64 said:
Ecce Homo,

I would ask first, if you believe traditional Catholic chapels are in schism, the why do you believe this?** Do you have good reasons to believe this?** Just curious.

Gorman
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The Pope said so…

There are no SSPX Chapels near me anyway so the point is moot.
 
Ecce Homo,

The Pope (JPII) also said that all men are saved. Is that a good reason to believe it?

Gorman
 
gorman64 said:
Ecce Homo,

The Pope (JPII) also said that all men are saved. Is that a good reason to believe it?

Gorman
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Not everything the Pope says is an infallible statement I agree with that, however in matters of excommunication and declaring schism I wouldn’t reject what the Pope has declared since he is given all power to do so from Jesus himself. Going into schism is not an avenue I am prepared to take no matter how frustrated I am at the current state of the Catholic Church.
 
Not everything the Pope says is an infallible statement I agree with that, however in matters of excommunication and declaring schism I wouldn’t reject what the Pope has declared since he is given all power to do so from Jesus himself.
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Do you think we, as Catholics, are only bound to ex cathedra pronouncments? Or are we bound to other teachings not (or not yet) infallibly pronounced?
 
gorman64 said:
Do you think we, as Catholics, are only bound to ex cathedra pronouncments? Or are we bound to other teachings not (or not yet) infallibly pronounced?
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No I think we’re bound to other teachings that haven’t been infallibly declared, however I think in order for us to be bound to them they must have behind it Apostolic tradition, tradition of the magesterium, and tradition of the Papal office. Pope John Paul II declaring everyone is saved (which I never knew he did) to me wouldn’t constitute a teaching I am bound by since the Pope never declared it ex-Cathedra, it contradicts previous infallible statements on the Catholic view of salvation, and there is zero Apostolic tradition to back that teaching up, simply it is an erroneous dangerous teaching I would not obey.

However that doesn’t negate the Popes ability to excommunicate, or any of us to call into question his judgment and ability to do so. SSPX ordained Bishops outside the norm of the Church and they were excommunicated. I do think SSPX has received a bad shake, if there’s room for Catholics like Nancy Pelosi to line up to receive certainly there’s room for followers of Archbishop Lefebvre. I do think Archbishop Lefebvre had his hand forced and was railroaded by the liberals and progressives in the Church. But he did ordain Bishops without getting the O.K. from the Vatican which calls for excommunication, no way around that, but it is a travesty IMO.
 
Pope John Paul II declaring everyone is saved (which I never knew he did) to me wouldn’t constitute a teaching I am bound by since the Pope never declared it ex-Cathedra, it contradicts previous infallible statements on the Catholic view of salvation, and there is zero Apostolic tradition to back that teaching up, simply it is an erroneous dangerous teaching I would not obey.
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I did not say he declared this…but he taught it. He also taught that the incarnation united each and every man with Christ forever. I have on several occasions quoted Redemptor Hominis without giving a source. Every time, people attack it as non-Catholic, and tell me these are protestant concepts.
 
gorman64 said:
I did not say he declared this…but he taught it. He also taught that the incarnation united each and every man with Christ forever. I have on several occasions quoted Redemptor Hominis without giving a source. Every time, people attack it as non-Catholic, and tell me these are protestant concepts.
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Do you ever quote Pastor Aeternus?
 
Windmill said:
ecce,

i am totally in the exact same boat - except we have a crucifix.

what has given me a lot of peace has been the schola that we have formed. a buddy of mine and i were “discussing” the state of liturgical music in the area, and he made a bold statement. “Why don’t we just start a schola?” i was formerly a bass in a large four-part choir at an anglican-use parish, and he was a trained cantor in a cathedral choir back home.

what the hey?!

our three-man group started out very simple, and in 2 years we have tripled in size. parishes are always very excited to have us, and we are branching out from simple hymns to things like vespers, tenebrae, weddings, funerals, ordinations, and even a couple of totally latin NO Masses.

now, there still is no TLM here, but if it ever comes up, i’ll know that the locals will be more open to it because of the schola’s regular appearances at the local parishes (4).

it makes me feel like i am doing something constructive besides just praying for a TLM.
Click to expand...
How wonderful! I am a cantor who hasn’t sung in a parish for some 4 years now. I would love to do this. What does it entail? Or would it not work for me since I am a woman?
 
gorman64 said:
I did not say he declared this…but he taught it. He also taught that the incarnation united each and every man with Christ forever. I have on several occasions quoted Redemptor Hominis without giving a source. Every time, people attack it as non-Catholic, and tell me these are protestant concepts.
Click to expand...
Say that again? How can the Pope say that everyone IS saved?
 
bear06 said:
Do you ever quote Pastor Aeternus?
Click to expand...
No. Why would I want to do that…I am concerned with exposing false doctrine being taught…not whatever may be true. Does a heretic teach all false doctrine…or just a few?

Gorman
 
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