Posture at Mass

[superamazingman]

Your point is well taken. However, as a catholic, I’m not going to say that the faith tradition that another human begin belongs to is not a true faith.

I will say that.

And I’ll also say that to say otherwise is a case of moral relativism, which our Holy Father has spoken so strongly against.

To them it may very well be. Just a friendly observation, I believe we get ourselves into trouble when we take on such a seemingly pompous attitude. Peace be with you.

It doesn’t matter what is is “to them.” “To me,” my father is 5’2 tall. That doesn’t mean he is.

The truth is, the Catholic church is the one true church, the only one founded by Christ. Every other one is not. That is not pompous, that is truthful.

 

[superamazingman]

I’d adopt a prayer posture like this (unless, of course, mom or dad grab your hands ).

Are you proposing we bring our own thuribles to Mass?

Or do you maybe mean the MC’s position?

 

[Polycarp1]

Don’t fall into the trap of speding your time at mass worrying about what everybody else is doing. Jesus said “do this in memory of me” and that’s all that really matters. I spent years watching others at mass, worrying about who was watching me, and not paying attention to what was really important.

 

[AlexPetrosPio]

I have come to closing my eyes during Mass, except during the Homily, and the Elevations of the Eucharist. I generally keep my head bowed and hands folded. This way, I try to alleviate some of the judging that I do (especially in parishes that are less than traditional).

 

[Elizium23]

It’s good and important for us to refrain from being judgemental regarding others’ actions. I used to attend a parish where there were many liturgical aberrations, on the part of the priests as well as the people. It frayed every last nerve I had to assist at liturgies where all these things went wrong. This was a time before I was aware of the liturgical resources online, but I was just sure in my gut that these were abuses and should not be tolerated. It led to many uncharitable remarks from me about the practice of the people and the priests. Things did not end well for me in that parish. I have thankfully found a parish where the people and priests are orthodox and faithful to the liturgy. Attending liturgies is a breeze and restores my faith that the Church can do things correctly. I wish that everyone could attend a perfect liturgy, but the fact is that we are human. We have to do our best to overlook the perceived faults in others and assume good faith about their motives and actions. We must especially remember to be charitable here in the L&S forum where we are welcome to discuss all kinds of minutiae and trivia with oftentimes hyperbolic terms and opinions. Some of us believe that looking with our amateur eyes on liturgical documents has made us better than the holy priests and bishops who are ordained to lead us. We would do well to practice humility and respect for others.

 

[R_C]

Are you proposing we bring our own thuribles to Mass?

Or do you maybe mean the MC’s position?

 

[Don_Jackson]

My sentiments, too! Give me back the CATHOLIC MASS, please, I am not fond of the Protestant-style service. In fact, it has kept me away from Church longer than I am going to admit.

This seems a common response, although I have never been able to figure out why. Is it insecurity in not conforming? Sometimes I do it, sometimes I don’t, but I’ve never lost sleep over it.

 

[ConstantineTG]

At my parish

1. Nearly everybody extends their arms (half-orans?) every time they say “And with your spirit.”
2. Nearly everybody does half-orans and orans during the “Lift up your hearts” prayer.
3. About half of the laity holds hands during the Our Father prayer.
4. All of my extended family does these things.

Would it be better for me to just go along with things even though it is not the proper liturgical posture, or would it be better to just follow the crowd until our pastor directs us to do things differently?

The GIRM doesn’t say these are improper posture or gestures for the laity.

 

[Piwowar]

Your point is well taken. However, as a catholic, I’m not going to say that the faith tradition that another human begin belongs to is not a true faith. To them it may very well be. Just a friendly observation, I believe we get ourselves into trouble when we take on such a seemingly pompous attitude. Peace be with you.

To the universityprof,

You have it totally correct. To gain respect, you must show respect.

 

[pnewton]

To datritle:

What is wrong with a Protestant Church?

The only problem I see is using “protestant” as an insult to other Catholics or to the Mass. First, it is an ignorant usage as there is nothing “protestant” about the orans or the Our Father. Second, it usurps the authority of the local priest to think one knows from a distant what is best at his parish.

 

[pnewton]

The GIRM doesn’t say these are improper posture or gestures for the laity.

I linked a video last week that was a Q and A from Cardinal Arinze. I like what he said. If you want to do it, okay. If you don’t want to do it, that is okay. What is not okay is to propagate a posture that is not in the Instruction.

In other words, announcing a specific posture for these times, posting instructions or even being pushy about them in the pews crosses the line.

 

[ConstantineTG]

I linked a video last week that was a Q and A from Cardinal Arinze. I like what he said. If you want to do it, okay. If you don’t want to do it, that is okay. What is not okay is to propagate a posture that is not in the Instruction.

In other words, announcing a specific posture for these times, posting instructions or even being pushy about them in the pews crosses the line.

In my experience as a Latin Catholic (33 years of it) is that I have never had anyone told me to either do the orans or not. Well, let me change that. No one has told me to do the orans. However people on this forum kept telling everyone else not to do it

 

[Diana_Catherine]

At my parish

1. Nearly everybody extends their arms (half-orans?) every time they say “And with your spirit.”
2. Nearly everybody does half-orans and orans during the “Lift up your hearts” prayer.
3. About half of the laity holds hands during the Our Father prayer.
4. All of my extended family does these things.

Would it be better for me to just go along with things even though it is not the proper liturgical posture, or would it be better to just follow the crowd until our pastor directs us to do things differently?

I do not like it when others do the orans position or hold hands during the Our Father but as others have said I close my eyes and pray with my hands folded and that way it doesn’t bother me. If someone reached out to me I would accept their hand. I am not sure where it started but I find it is more common at some parishes and not so at others. If your priest hasn’t told any one not to then I guess it is okay and your choice.

I personally, though, don’t get the orans position not because it is wrong but those who do that mostly only do it during the Our Father and there are many other times the priest prays in the orans position, so I guess I wonder why they only imitate the priest during the Our Father and not other times?

 

[snowflakeinlove]

At my parish

1. Nearly everybody extends their arms (half-orans?) every time they say “And with your spirit.”
2. Nearly everybody does half-orans and orans during the “Lift up your hearts” prayer.
3. About half of the laity holds hands during the Our Father prayer.
4. All of my extended family does these things.

Would it be better for me to just go along with things even though it is not the proper liturgical posture, or would it be better to just follow the crowd until our pastor directs us to do things differently?

A lot of people at my parish do that too. I don’t feel pressured to go along, and I’m too preoccupied to notice if other people notice For a lot of people, they probably do it out of habit (I’ve noticed it’s mostly older parishioners), or because the posture somehow helps them pray better

 

[GwenL]

Your point is well taken. However, as a catholic, I’m not going to say that the faith tradition that another human begin belongs to is not a true faith. To them it may very well be. Just a friendly observation, I believe we get ourselves into trouble when we take on such a seemingly pompous attitude. Peace be with you.

May I suggest that you read Dominus Iesus, a declaration on the unicity and salvific universality of Jesus Christ and the Church, promulgated by Joseph Cardinal Ratizinger as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, and approved by Pope John Paul II? There are many parts of this document which we, the Catholic faithful, are required to believe.

Here is one key passage. There are many, many more.

With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30-31).90 This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism “characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that ‘one religion is as good as another’”.91 If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation.92

 

[CatholicZ09]

I never really pay attention to how other people posture themselves at Mass. I always have my hands clasped tightly to my upper stomach, or I have them folded or one hand over the other with my arms down. I never liked the “prayer” pose that we all learned when receiving for First Holy Communion. I always felt awkward; I don’t know why. Sometimes, depending where I am standing, people will want to hold hands during the Lord’s Prayer, so I join in, but I always feel uncomfortable, and my palms get very sweaty.

 

[Phemie]

I personally, though, don’t get the orans position not because it is wrong but those who do that mostly only do it during the Our Father and there are many other times the priest prays in the orans position, so I guess I wonder why they only imitate the priest during the Our Father and not other times?

Fr. uses the orans position any time he’s addressing God directly (in the Collects, for example). The “Our Father” is the one time during Mass when the PIP are directly addressing God the Father out loud. So it’s logical that that would be the only moment that they use the orans position. I don’t choose to do this but it really doesn’t bother me if others do even if it’s not prescribed in the liturgical books. They may well use that posture at home when they are praying.

OTOH, I think doing the wave every time we reply “And with your spirit,” is ridiculous. It’s like being back in kindergarten and doing action songs.

 

[Son_of_Charity]

The GIRM doesn’t say these are improper posture or gestures for the laity.

What would a mass look like if everyone did what they wanted to do just because it wasn’t improper?

John

 

[pnewton]

OTOH, I think doing the wave every time we reply “And with your spirit,” is ridiculous. It’s like being back in kindergarten and doing action songs.

I do not think this action has to do with action songs. Most people use their hands when in dialogue with others. It is not natural to keep ones hands unmoving down to one’s side when in a discussion.

Note that the priest also uses his hands this way, not just when addressing God, but also when he is in this dialogue with the faithful. When talking with someone who is using a gesture, it is hard not to use one’s hands in responding.

 

[Phemie]

I do not think this action has to do with action songs. Most people use their hands when in dialogue with others. It is not natural to keep ones hands unmoving down to one’s side when in a discussion.

Note that the priest also uses his hands this way, not just when addressing God, but also when he is in this dialogue with the faithful. When talking with someone who is using a gesture, it is hard not to use one’s hands in responding.

You’re talking to a someone who’s mute when her hands are tied behind her back , but this ‘back at ya’ gesture is something that people were taught to do, not something that spontaneously occurred because someone was speaking with their hands.