Posture during the Lord's Prayer

[Brendan_64]

Why do people feel the desire to hold hands specifically during the Our Father and not during any other prayers they say at Mass. What about the Creed, the Gloria, the Sanctus, the Agnes Dei? Why not go the whole hog and hold hands during the entire Mass? Why specifically during the Our Father? The same applies for holding hands in the Orans position. Can anyone who does this explain why they do it specifically during the Our Father?

 

[ameliepoir]

Why do people feel the desire to hold hands specifically during the Our Father and not during any other prayers they say at Mass. What about the Creed, the Gloria, the Sanctus, the Agnes Dei? Why not go the whole hog and hold hands during the entire Mass? Why specifically during the Our Father? The same applies for holding hands in the Orans position. Can anyone who does this explain why they do it specifically during the Our Father?

I held my hands in the Orans position when I first started to attend mass, because I was mimicking others around me (not the priest). I had to mimick others to know how to do anything. This doesn’t explain how this started or why everyone does it, but I suspect it’s why many/most people do it.

 

[on_the_hill]

The GIRM does not expressively give any direction to do anything when reciting the Lord’s Prayer; therefore, any position is prohibited then?

From what I’ve read when this subject has come up before is that people who don’t like hand holding and the orans position explain that because the GIRM doesn’t tell people to hold hands holding hands is not permissible. Same with orans position. GIRM tells the priest to use it but does not tell anyone else to use it. Therefore, they argue, no one but the priest is allowed.

Personally, I don’t like orans because it seems too “Protestant” to me.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I hold hands or do the orans position- depends on where I am and what the custom of the parish is.

With regards to the “orans position”, I use this posture whenever I pray.
Prayer is a reciprocal event. If my hands are clasped together tightly, I cannot let go of anything or receive anything. With my hands open, it is a visible reminder to me that God is always in control. I give my burdens to Him, he fills me with His grace.

 

[Brendan_64]

I hold hands or do the orans position- depends on where I am and what the custom of the parish is.

With regards to the “orans position”, I use this posture whenever I pray.
Prayer is a reciprocal event. If my hands are clasped together tightly, I cannot let go of anything or receive anything. With my hands open, it is a visible reminder to me that God is always in control. I give my burdens to Him, he fills me with His grace.

So do you hold your hands in the orans position throughout all the prayers you say during Mass? The Confiteor, the Gloria, the Creed, the Sanctus, the Agnes Dei and all the other prayers you say during the Mass?

 

[Oneofthewomen]

So do you hold your hands in the orans position throughout all the prayers you say during Mass? The Confiteor, the Gloria, the Creed, the Sanctus, the Agnes Dei and all the other prayers you say during the Mass?

Sort of. Not necessarily out stretched, but still open, and about waist level.

 

[Brendan_64]

Sort of. Not necessarily out stretched, but still open, and about waist level.

Personally I don’t like to see the laity with their hands in the orans position at Mass as I think it looks a bit like the person is mimicking the priest and seems to me to be sending a signal that hints at “we’re all part of the priesthood, laity and clergy, we’re all equal in the Liturgy” (but I assume you would disagree with me on that) nevertheless thank you your reply, at least you are consistent in your approach.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Personally I don’t like hands in the orans position as I think it is mimicking the priest and seems to me to be sending a signal that hints at “we’re all part of the priesthood, laity and clergy, we’re all equal in the Liturgy” (but I assume you would disagree with me on that) nevertheless thank you your reply, at least you are consistent in your approach.

I disagree that it sends the signal that you seem to be implying.
I explained why I do what I do, why others may do it could be for the reasons you site or could not be. I prefer to think the best of people rather than the worst.

 

[Brendan_64]

I prefer to think the best of people rather than the worst.

I’m not thinking the worst, just expressing the signal that the gesture communicates to me. Liturgy is a language, both verbal and non-verbal and language communicates meaning. I can also see how the gesture can communicate what you mean by it.

 

[Kielbasi]

When in Schenectady, do as the Schenectadites, and the same goes for Rome.

No need to rock the boat on this issue, just do as the others in the location that you are at.

Even though a case can be made for adopting one posture or another, I can’t see a case made for chaos.

 

[otjm]

I THINK that the reason is because the GIRM doesn’t direct the congregation to use the oran position. What is not expressly permitted is therefore prohibited.

If that were the rule (and there is no written rule stating such), then it would also be forbidden to hold one’s hands together, fingers interlaced, or fingers pointing up or out.

What you described is the germanic approach to law; what is not alowed is forbidden.

The other approach to law, called the mediterranean, is that what it not forbidden, is allowed.

the bottom line is that the GIRM does not instruct the laity how to hold their hands, Period.

 

[otjm]

I have a picture of people holding hands during the Our Father, from 1965.

The first edition of the GIRM was 11/18/1969; revised 3/26/1970; and emended 8/15/1972.

The second edition of the GIRM was 3/27/1975; emended 1/25/1983.

The third edition of the GIRM, study edition was released 7/2000 and the third edition of the Roman Missal in 3/2002.

Rome has undoubtedly known about holding hands during the Our Father since somewhere at or during the first edition; and none of the editions have addressed the matter, although there have been a steady stream of complaints about it since it’s inception.

At least as long ago as 1995, the USCCB petitioned Rome to allow the orans position during the Our Father and to restrict (as in, eliminate) holding hands, as part of some changes being proposed in the ICEL Sacramentary. The proposals were sent to Rome; Rome replaced the new Roman Missal, and subsequently officially rejected the changes requested by the ICEL Sacramentary proposal after the Roman Missal was released.

Nothing was said, either about the holding hands, or the orans position, by Rome in the Missal, nor has there been any directive from Rome concerning the postures (and there have been other documents from Rome concerning abuses in Mass).

The short of it is that Rome has been aware for decades of both the posture of holding hands during the Our Father, and of the orans position during the same, and in repeated releases has chosen to ignore the matter. Not outlaw it, not set a posture to be held; simply ignore it.

Anything to the contrary is personal opinion and holds as much weight as any other personal opinion.

And as to what I do, I follow the suggestion of Archbishop Chaput, which is that all sides need to act in charity; meaning, if the person next to me wants to hold hands, I do so, and if they do not want to hold hands, I do not do so. I simply don’t have a dog in this one, and it does not create an emotional issue for me. I don’t care if we hold hands, or don’t do so; and if Rome institutes a rule on the matter, I don’t care which way they rule; I will abide by it.

 

[ProVobis]

I have a picture of people holding hands during the Our Father, from 1965.

Now that you mentioned the 60’s, I seem to recall the practice of holding hands being exercised as people were signing “We Shall Overcome” (after Martin Luther King’s death) and “God Bless America” (in private and other settings) among other instances. Naturally when prayer become vocalized in churches, there was the progressive urge to extend this practice there as well. Just a theory of mine at this point. Most resisted the urge, others didn’t. I suppose some even claim it makes the prayer more efficacious. I fail to see how. To being with, reciting things in cadences in a group setting tends to set the focus more on doing things in unison rather than worshiping God, according to my old boss anyway. But it sounds good to priest and bishops, I’ll grant that much.

Point is, however, that holding hands became a cultural thing and that’s probably why the Vatican didn’t and doesn’t want to touch it. It becomes a church etiquette sort of thing for each parish.

 

[ProVobis]

Sort of. Not necessarily out stretched, but still open, and about waist level.

No disrespect intended, but if this doesn’t mimic the posture of the priest, what is it?

 

[Brendan_64]

To be fair, so long as people keep the gesture to themselves it isn’t much of an issue really. It’s when the gesture becomes a case of people wanting you to hold hands with them when you’d rather just pray with your hands joined that it becomes problematic.

 

[rondirect]

I have a picture of people holding hands during the Our Father, from 1965.

The first edition of the GIRM was 11/18/1969; revised 3/26/1970; and emended 8/15/1972.

The second edition of the GIRM was 3/27/1975; emended 1/25/1983.

The third edition of the GIRM, study edition was released 7/2000 and the third edition of the Roman Missal in 3/2002.

Rome has undoubtedly known about holding hands during the Our Father since somewhere at or during the first edition; and none of the editions have addressed the matter, although there have been a steady stream of complaints about it since it’s inception.

At least as long ago as 1995, the USCCB petitioned Rome to allow the orans position during the Our Father and to restrict (as in, eliminate) holding hands, as part of some changes being proposed in the ICEL Sacramentary. The proposals were sent to Rome; Rome replaced the new Roman Missal, and subsequently officially rejected the changes requested by the ICEL Sacramentary proposal after the Roman Missal was released.

Nothing was said, either about the holding hands, or the orans position, by Rome in the Missal, nor has there been any directive from Rome concerning the postures (and there have been other documents from Rome concerning abuses in Mass).

The short of it is that Rome has been aware for decades of both the posture of holding hands during the Our Father, and of the orans position during the same, and in repeated releases has chosen to ignore the matter. Not outlaw it, not set a posture to be held; simply ignore it.

Anything to the contrary is personal opinion and holds as much weight as any other personal opinion.

And as to what I do, I follow the suggestion of Archbishop Chaput, which is that all sides need to act in charity; meaning, if the person next to me wants to hold hands, I do so, and if they do not want to hold hands, I do not do so. I simply don’t have a dog in this one, and it does not create an emotional issue for me. I don’t care if we hold hands, or don’t do so; and if Rome institutes a rule on the matter, I don’t care which way they rule; I will abide by it.

Wonderfully said. Rome didn’t weigh in on this because there is no issue; it is a “whatever.”

 

[Oneofthewomen]

No disrespect intended, but if this doesn’t mimic the posture of the priest, what is it?

I don’t see how? I have my hands open, palms up at about my waist level in front of me instead of folded or palm to palm.
Not mimicking the priest at all, as I have never seen a priest with his hands like that, so not exactly sure what your point is.

 

[otjm]

This thread originally started as a simple question of “What do you do”, and not unlike many other previous threads concerning holding hands during the Our Father (or the orans position), it has devolved into a “rightness or wrongness” discussion - so what the heck, I’ll add a bit more.

Some years ago, after the working edition of the GIRM came out, there was a question going around like wildfire, concerning the posture after one had received Communion and before all others had received.

A dubium was sent by Cardinal George to Rome. Cardinal Arinze responded in part, that Rome did not intend to be rigid about the matter (the way the GIRM was written made it appear that all were to remain standing after receiving until the last had received).

It was tradition that people would kneel while waiting for the rest to receive.

Cardinal Arinze’s answer was that people could stand, sit or kneel after returning to their pew.

I note this, as in this thread much has been made about unity of posture. I am not against unity of posture, and although I rarely ever see anyone return to their pew and stand, if we can survive Rome’s willingness to allow different postures after reception, it would seem that we could survive a difference in posture during the Our Father with some holding hands and some not.

The absolute unity of posture during the Our Father (hands with palms together). while being proposed as appropriate/necessary/required/(whatever word feels appropriate), in its approach does not appear to be the approach Rome takes, at least as an absolute.

The GIRM does have directions which provide a unity of posture (sitting, standing, kneeling), but the directions are limited (as in, they don’t include hand placements), and Rome has seen fit not to require unity of posture after reception of Communion, and Rome has also seen fit to not address hand holding or the orans posture.

Over Thanksgiving I attended Mass in another state, in a suburban area about 25 miles out of a major metropolitan area, and it was the first time in a long time that I had seen anyone stand after receiving, and it was initially disconcerting. But it took me less than 30 seconds to redirect my attention to my reception, and to return to prayer. So it is not like I don’t get it that some things can cause one’s focus to wander.

On the other hand, we all have choices; we can continue to be distracted, or we can refocus. It is our choice as to where we focus. And redirecting focus is not all that difficult. Rome has chosen, over something between 40 and 50 years, to ignore holding hands, and for the better part of that length of time, to ignore the orans position. All of the arguments which have been proposed as to the wrongness of those two postures needs to accept that it is an issue among some of the laity, and not an issue with Rome. And as Archbishop Chaput publicly put it, both sides have a duty of charity to the other side in the matter and to allow the other person the choice as to what they do with their hands, as well as what we do.

 

[rondirect]

I don’t see how? I have my hands open, palms up at about my waist level in front of me instead of folded or palm to palm.
Not mimicking the priest at all, as I have never seen a priest with his hands like that, so not exactly sure what your point is.

Yes! And, to otjm as well. Besides that, I seen different priests use different posturing. So what should we do, wait to see what the priest does first and do the opposite? This is so getting out of hand. So much to do about nothing. Pray in the position you feel comfortable with and I guarantee that your attendance at mass will still be valid. Picky, picky, picky. Gee, 4 pages on how to hold our hands when reciting or singing the Lord’s Prayer!

 

[TimothyH]

This thread originally started as a simple question of “What do you do”, and not unlike many other previous threads concerning holding hands during the Our Father (or the orans position), it has devolved into a “rightness or wrongness” discussion

That’s because the original post was an invitation to argue.