Posture for Holy Communion-Clarified

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Again, we are only discussing US girm norms which have been approved by Rome, namely standing to receive Holy Communion. You deminish your crediblity by comparing this to liturgical abuses, which some liberal Bishops support.

The entire USCCB supports the US norm of standing. What exactly are you saying?
 
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Mysty101:
The Holy Father has stated that the Bishop is the Shepherd and to be obeyed. You are arguing against approved norms in the US.
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I’m trying very hard to be charitable, but I have to ask are you stupid or ignorant? Let me repeat this again slowly so even you can understand:
The Holy Father has APPROVED KNEELING FOR HOLY COMMUNION ANYWHERE AND ANYTIME IN THE UNITED STAES. YOU, YOUR PASTOR AND YOUR BISHOP CANNOT PREVENT ME FROM KNEELING FOR HOLY COMMUNION!!!
**I will post in nice big letters, so you can see it all the more clearly, what the GIRM says: **
**The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. **COMMUNICANTS SHOULD NOT BE DENIED HOLY COMMUNION BECAUSE THEY KNEEL (emphasis mine). **Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, **by providing the faithful with proper catechesis for this norm (emphasis mine).
** **usccb.org/liturgy/current/GIRM.pdf

I honestly can’t figure out why you don’t understand this, unless you have a prejudice against anyone kneeling to receive Our Lord Jesus Christ.
Here’s how the Catholic Church works. You may want to take notes.
1. Jesus Christ founded the Catholic Church
2. Jesus gave Peter HIS AUTHORITY on matters of faith and morals on earth.
3. Jesus made the other Apostles the first bishops of the Church.
4. Jesus made Peter THE HEAD OF ALL THE BISHOPS.
5. The successor of Peter is THE HEAD OF ALL THE BISHOPS.
6. THE BISHOPS OF THE WORLD, INCLUDING YOUR BISHOP, ARE UNDER THE BISHOP OF ROME.
7. ANY BISHOP THAT GOES AGAINST THE BISHOP OF ROME IS NOT IN UNION WITH HIM AND THEREFORE IS NOT TO BE OBEYED!!!
In other words, it doesn’t mean diddly squat what your bishop thinks, the Bishop of Rome says I can kneel for Holy Communion. If your bishop says I can’t kneel for Holy Communion, HE IS DISOBEDIENT TO THE BISHOP OF ROME AND THEREFORE I, AS A CATHOLIC, HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO IGNORE HIM AND OBEY THE HOLY FATHER!!!
There, now isn’t that simple?
 
Mysty101 said:
let me repeat this again slowly so even you can understand:
I am talking about approved norms. These decisions of the Bishop have been approved by Rome. I am speaking about the US norms in the GIRM.
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You are not talking about the US norms in the GIRM because YOU CONTINUE TO IGNORE THIS FACT:
COMMUNICANTS SHOULD NOT BE DENIED HOLY COMMUNION BECAUSE THEY KNEEL (emphasis mine).
This point is entirely lost on you because you ignore whatever you want to ignore.
I noticed in another thread you told Roman Rite Teen that if he has been instructed to receive Holy Communion in the hand he do so. HOWEVER, THE NORM FOR THE UNITED STATES, ACCORDING TO THE BISHOPS, IS ON THE TONGUE!!!
It’s amazing that in one sentence you DEMAND strict observance of the US norms and then IGNORE the same norms when you disagree with it. That’s called hypocrisy.
 
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Mysty101:
And you call yourself a Christian?
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I didn’t say you DON’T believe in the Real Presence, I said I have doubts about your belief in the Real Presence. I also noticed you didn’t answer my question as to what we receive when we receive Holy Communion. What are we receiving in Holy Communion?
I call myself a Catholic Christian who uses the ability of reason that God gave me. Too bad you don’t do the same.
 
Kelly said:
I know it is a good idea to obey the Holy Father. I know it is wrong to be disobedient to the Holy See. I know I do not have to obey bishops and priests who are disobedient to the Bishop of Rome. It’s called practicing your Catholic faith.

Swiss Guard,

I think that you will find no way to get your point across to the ultra left-wingers. Unfortunatley to them their bishops and"pastors" do have more credibility than the Holy See. These are the same type of people that would have told St. Thomas More that his duty was to follow the directions of the majority of English bishops during his time and ignore Rome, after all they were clearly only concerned with the needs of their own individual community.

I have lived in three archdioceses over the past 4 years. The only archbishops and priests that I know that have tried to thwart Rome on this issue have also been the ones who insist on disobeying Rome on many other issues such as kneeling during the consecration, the washing of women’s feet on Holy Thrusday, insisting that children wait to receive confession two years after first communion, and the like. Fortunately the vast majority of priests under the age of 45 are very orthodox and loyal to the Holy Father!

By the way I agree with your assessment that the loss of the belief in the True Presence in the Holy Eucharist is directly related to the lack of reverence (kneeling), the use of EMHC, and receiving on the tongue.
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I’ve dealt with modernist ultra left-wingers like Pope Mysty before Kelly. I know I’m not getting anywhere with her because she doesn’t use logic and reason. Rather, she lets her feeling do her thinking for her. She feels it’s best to receive Holy Communion standing, in the hand, from your mailman instead of kneeling, on the tongue, from the priest. I know nothing I say will change her way of "feeling."
I’m just tired of material schismatics like her trying force their schismatic and heretical views and practices on the rest of us.
They “feel” they know better than the rest of us and we poor dumb, uneducated hayseeds should just get in line with them.
A Blessed Sacrament priest said that he believes Communion in the hand and abuse of lay ministers has led to a 30% belief in the Real Presence among US Catholics who regularly attend Mass. These aren’t Catholics who only go to Mass on Christmas, Easter, weddings, and funerals. These are Catholics who attend Mass almost every week. Some even attend weekly and don’t believe in the Real Presence.
Mysty never answered my question as to what we receive when we receive Holy Communion. This is what gives me doubt as to her belief in the Real Presence.
 
**
Mysty never answered my question as to what we receive when we receive Holy Communion. This is what gives me doubt as to her belief in the Real Presence.
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**

This is slander and you will answer for it, if not in this life, then in the next.

I know that I receive the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of my Lord & Savior, Jesus Christ in either the Sacred Body or the Precious Blood (Host or Chalice, in case you don’t know of what I speak).

**I also know **
6(D)Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired;
My ears You have a]opened;
Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.
7Then I said, "Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
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Perhaps this could also be true of other outward signs, —
[ **
******Matthew 23:27
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which outwardly appear beautiful, but inwardly are full of dead](Matthew 23:27 ASV - Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, - Bible Gateway)

I kneel in adoration before my Lord and Savior on many occassions, but not when I am told to stand.
 
“Those deceive themselves who believe that union with God consists in ecstasies or in enjoyment of Him. For it consists in nothing except the surrender and subjection of our will.” St Teresa
 
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fix:
Clericalism and Americanism are alive and well I see.
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You’re not kidding. I don’t know why the big deal about kneeling for communion. I guess it bothers some people to see others receiving differently.

I would suggest to those who have a problem with people kneeling for communion is not to let it bother you. The problem lies with you, not with the person kneeling. It doesn’t bother me when people stand for communion, why should it bother someone when I kneel?

There are more problems in the Catholic Church than someone kneeling to receive communion.
 
It doesn’t bother me when people stand for communion, why should it bother someone when I kneel?
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It wouldn’t bother me, if the GIRM instructions said to kneel. It also doesn’t bother me, if there are provisions. What does bother me is someone kneeling in the middle of a standing procession. No matter what is the intention, it does draw attention.

We had a few at veneration of the cross. The Pastor said “form 2 lines, make a simple bow, and kiss the cross”. But no—many chose to show how reverent they were, and genuflect and kiss the cross in a few places—veneration took almost an hour.

Sad though, no body stayed and knelt afterward, when the cross was left for private veneration. That would be the time to kneel or even prostrate, if desired, but hey no one would see it.
 
I have read many posts on this thread and I don’t want to go over the same arguments ad nauseam. Suffice to say we agree to disagree on what the GIRM says. It seems clear to me the GIRM allows kneeling for communion but you see it differently.

I totally agree about those who like to showboat but I’m not going to judge what is in their hearts. God alone knows what is in their hearts and I will leave that judgment up to Him. I noticed you didn’t like it when someone suggested what is in your heart. You were very angry, and rightfully so, when someone doubted your belief in the Eucharist. You didn’t like being judged. Don’t judge others.

We should work together at ridding the Catholic Church of abuses in the Mass. We both agree on that.

Peace
 
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Mysty101:
It wouldn’t bother me, if the GIRM instructions said to kneel. It also doesn’t bother me, if there are provisions. What does bother me is someone kneeling in the middle of a standing procession. No matter what is the intention, it does draw attention.

We had a few at veneration of the cross. The Pastor said “form 2 lines, make a simple bow, and kiss the cross”. But no—many chose to show how reverent they were, and genuflect and kiss the cross in a few places—veneration took almost an hour.

Sad though, no body stayed and knelt afterward, when the cross was left for private veneration. That would be the time to kneel or even prostrate, if desired, but hey no one would see it.
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You sound very bitter and also judgmental. You cannot know what is in the hearts of Men, so it seems prickly of you to assume anyone genuflects for the benefit of yours or any other mortals’ eyes. You should rather assume it is only God they seek to honor. It seems a reflection of your own heart that you see it the way you do.
 
or a reflection on seeing my 85 year old mom tripping over a genuflector.

I have no problem with kneeling. I have knelt and kissed the bottom step of the sanctuary, before I vacumed it, if there was no one around. I have a problem with people thinking they know better than the entire USCCB as to what best suits the needs of the entire community, not them personally. As I said, I have no problem with kneeling when there are provisions, and if it is the norm at a Mass I attend, I kneel.

Seems like you are judging my heart.
GIRM
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  1. The acclamations and the responses of the faithful to the priest’s greetings and prayers constitute that level of active participation that the gathered faithful are to contribute in every form of the Mass, so that the action of the entire community may be clearly expressed and fostered.47
Movements and Posture
42. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered.52 Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice**.**
girm 160…The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing.
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Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.
Finally, with the new General Instruction
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, we are asked to make a sign of reverence, to be determined by the bishops of each country or region, before receiving Communion standing. The bishops of this country have determined that the sign which we will give before Communion is to be a bow, a gesture through which we express our reverence and give honor to Christ who comes to us as our spiritual food.

In addition to serving as a vehicle for the prayer of beings composed of body and spirit, the postures and gestures in which we engage at Mass have another very important function. The Church sees in these common postures and gestures both a symbol of the unity of those who have come together to worship and a means of fostering that unity. We are not free to change these postures to suit our own individual piety, for the Church makes it clear that our unity of posture and gesture is an expression of our participation in the one Body formed by the baptized with Christ, our head. When we stand, kneel, sit, bow and sign ourselves in common action, we given unambiguous witness that we are indeed the Body of Christ, united in heart, mind and spirit.
Email us at bcl@usccb.org
Committee on the Liturgy | 3211 4th Street, N.E., Washington DC 20017-1194 | (202) 541-3000 © USCCB. All rights reserved.
 
PS All you who say kneeling is the norm, explain this.

Hand or tongue is a true option, and it is worded very clearly.

The wording of the posture does not indicate there is an option. If the option for kneeling was to be truly allowed rather than “not to be denied Communion”, why wasn’t the norm reprobated, as was the use of flagons?

I never said anyone should be denied Communion. I just said they should subject their will to the authority of their shepherd.
 
So you are saying the GIRM is wrong?

I think I’ll go with the GIRM rather than your interpretation. Standing is the norm in the US.

Again I repeaat, I am not saying anyone should be denied Communion. I am stating the norm, which the USCCB has decided is best for the Spiritual good of the community.

PS You still haven’t explained why the true option of hand or tongue is so clear, while those who kneel are to be instructed in the norm of standing.
 
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Mysty101:
So you are saying the GIRM is wrong?

I think I’ll go with the GIRM rather than your interpretation. Standing is the norm in the US.
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It is not my interpretation. It is from a letter straight from Rome. I am only pulling rank.

Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum

Prot. n. 47 / 03 / L

Rome, 26 February 2003

Dear [name deleted],

This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has received through official channels your letter dated 1 December 2002, related to the application of the norms approved by the Conference of Bishops of the United States of America, with the subsequent recognitio of this Congregation, as regards the question of the posture for receiving Holy Communion.

As the authority by virtue of whose recognitio the norm in question has attained the force of law, this Dicastery is competent to specify the manner in which the norm is to be understood for the sake of a proper application. Having received more than a few letters regarding this matter from different locations in the United States of America, the Congregation wishes to ensure that its position on the matter is clear.

To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: “… while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion”.

This Dicastery hopes that the citation given here will provide an adequate answer to your letter. At the same time, please be assured that the Congregation remains ready to be of assistance if you should need to contact it again.

With every prayerful good wish, I am

Sincerely yours in Christ,

Mons. Mario Marini
Undersecretary
 
Again, it is your interpretation of the letter

while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion".

You said
The norm for receiving the Eucharist is kneeling. At the request of American bishops, Rome granted that people may stand to receive. It was an allowance made by Rome to the American bishops, and as such has become a norm (an acceptable norm in other words), but not the norm.
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The norm is standing, and *communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. *

Again I repeaat, I am not saying anyone should be denied Communion. I am stating the norm, which the USCCB has decided is best for the Spiritual good of the community.

PS You still haven’t explained why the true option of hand or tongue is so clear, while those who kneel are to be instructed in the norm of standing.

You do not agree with the standing norm, but obviously Rome does recognize it. When it was addressed, it was not reprobated.
 
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Mysty101:
PS You still haven’t explained why the true option of hand or tongue is so clear, while those who kneel are to be instructed in the norm of standing.

You do not agree with the standing norm, but obviously Rome does recognize it. When it was addressed, it was not reprobated.
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You did not ask me to explain “why the true option of hand or tongue is so clear, while those who kneel are to be instructed in the norm of standing” – and that is why I did not answer you. If I am to presume you are asking me now however, first clarify what it is you wish you knew. I am unable to discern your true question.

I have not interpreted the letter from Rome. All I did was copy and paste it here. Understanding its meaning requires only reading, not interpreting, it.
 
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