Posture for Holy Communion-Clarified

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Cherub:
The best solution for the whole community would be for the American bishops to follow the rules as set by Rome, and stop asking for special treatment for the American Church all the time. That is what derails unity.
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PS This is not for you to decide. The Bishops have that authority given by Rome. They have decided what is best for their country, and you think you know better. Perhaps you should look at yourself before you throw stones at your shepherds. You want to tell the bishops what to do (without any authority), but do not want to obey lawful authority.
 
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Mysty101:
You want to tell the bishops what to do (without any authority), but do not want to obey lawful authority.
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Hey, you know what? NO PROBLEM. Next time, I’ll just tell them you sent me. 😃
 
Mysty,
What is your take on Bishop Lynch? Do you think that the faithful, including the priests, of his diocese were bound to follow his instructions to have nothing to do with the Schiavo case not even allowed to counsel the family or adminster the sacraments to a dying practicing Catholic? This is an American bishop,a member of the USCCB, do you think he was truely looking out for the eternal salvation of the faithful or maybe was he possibly looking out for his own interests? I don’t know, but Rome is definitely in opposition to his viewpoint, who should the faithful of his diocese turn to?
In your opinion the Vatican and our Holy Father should be ignored. Our “shephards” here know what is best for us, PLEASE, I am so sick of Americanism in Catholicism that I could scream!!!
We should all be falling down prostrate in front of our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and not worrying about what others thought about us. I hope that you expend the same amount of energy correcting all of the people in your parish who show NO sign of reverenece what so ever to Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament as you do to those who you so flippantly condemn who kneel before Him in adoration before daring to receive Him into their unworhty mouths.
 
Talk about Off Topic

I repeat–I said obey your shepherd unless there is a serious abuse
GIRM 390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include
  • The gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43 above);
  • The gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels (cf. no. 273 above);
  • The texts of the chants at the entrance, at the presentation of the gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87 above);
  • The readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362 above);
  • The form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82 above);
  • The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283 above);
  • The materials for the altar and sacred furnishings, especially the sacred vessels, and also the materials, form, and color of the liturgical vestments (cf. nos. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346 above).
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You don’t like the approved posture for the reception of Holy Communion.

or the Approved Sign of reverence.

You say,
We should all be falling down prostrate in front of our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament and not worrying about what others thought about us.
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You say “Obey Rome” but you only want to obey Rome when Rome says what you want to hear.

Otherwise, it’s obey you.
 
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Mysty101:
Talk about Off Topic

I repeat–I said obey your shepherd unless there is a serious abuse

You don’t like the approved posture for the reception of Holy Communion.

or the Approved Sign of reverence.

You say,

You say “Obey Rome” but you only want to obey Rome when Rome says what you want to hear.

Otherwise, it’s obey you.
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You have it backward. You only obey when the Americanists command. When Rome commands, you spin.
 
GIRM 390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include
  • The gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43 above);
  • The gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels (cf. no. 273 above);
  • The texts of the chants at the entrance, at the presentation of the gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87 above);
  • The readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362 above);
  • The form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82 above);
  • The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283 above);
  • The materials for the altar and sacred furnishings, especially the sacred vessels, and also the materials, form, and color of the liturgical vestments (cf. nos. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346 above).
 
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Mysty101:
GIRM 390. It is up to the Conferences of Bishops to decide on the adaptations indicated in this General Instruction and in the Order of Mass and, once their decisions have been accorded the recognitio of the Apostolic See, to introduce them into the Missal itself. These adaptations include
  • The gestures and posture of the faithful (cf. no. 43 above);
  • The gestures of veneration toward the altar and the Book of the Gospels (cf. no. 273 above);
  • The texts of the chants at the entrance, at the presentation of the gifts, and at Communion (cf. nos. 48, 74, 87 above);
  • The readings from Sacred Scripture to be used in special circumstances (cf. no. 362 above);
  • The form of the gesture of peace (cf. no. 82 above);
  • The manner of receiving Holy Communion (cf. nos. 160, 283 above);
  • The materials for the altar and sacred furnishings, especially the sacred vessels, and also the materials, form, and color of the liturgical vestments (cf. nos. 301, 326, 329, 339, 342-346 above).
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The GIRM is interpreted by Rome. It only has authority because Rome gives it authority.
 
That is correct, but Rome has given the USCCB that authority. There is no room for interpretation in a norm for standing. The time for qualification, or option would have been before it was approved.

The command is to obey lawful authority, not just the lawful authority with which you agree.

You are focusing on “not to be denied” which is still different than “allowed”, and not even addressing “such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.”

As I said, that letter is worded very carefully, so as not to attempt to contradict a lawful norm, and even so, I am not sure it would stand up to canon law, if the USCCB chose to challenge it.
 
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Mysty101:
That is correct, but Rome has given the USCCB that authority. There is no room for interpretation in a norm for standing. The time for qualification, or option would have been before it was approved.

The command is to obey lawful authority, not just the lawful authority with which you agree.

You are focusing on “not to be denied” which is still different than “allowed”, and not even addressing “such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.”

As I said, that letter is worded very carefully, so as not to attempt to contradict a lawful norm, and even so, I am not sure it would stand up to canon law, if the USCCB chose to challenge it.
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Again, Rome has spoken. It is settled.
 
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Mysty101:
Yes it is—
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“… **while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. **Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion”.
 
See, the GIRM is not self interpreted. Rome has decided how it is to be understood and applied. Clericalism and Americanism have no place in the Church.
 
We’ve been over this many times.
**
this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

I’ve said many times that I did not advocate denying Holy Communion, nor object to kneeling if there were provisions, or a few people receiving in that manner. If it is the common practice at a Mass I attend, I kneel.

This does not change the norm, nor does it change the fact that those who kneel are putting their individual piety over the decision of their shepherds’ as to what best suits the common spiritual good of the community.
girm52
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Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.

“Love thy neighbor as thyself”
psalm 40:73
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sacrifice and offering you do not want; but ears open to obedience you gave me. Holocausts and sin-offerings you do not require; 8 so I said, “Here I am; your commands for me are written in the scroll. 9 To do your will is my delight; my God, your law is in my heart!”
Mt 16:18And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13
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and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
RS19.
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The diocesan Bishop, the first steward of the mysteries of God in the particular Church entrusted to him, is the moderator, promoter and guardian of her whole liturgical life.39 For “the Bishop, endowed with the fullness of the Sacrament of Order, is ‘the steward of the grace of the high Priesthood,’40 especially in the Eucharist which he either himself offers or causes to be offered,41 by which the Church continually lives and grows.”

Have you ever heard of Apostolic succession? One of the marks of the Church which separates us from the Protestent sects? And valid ordination?

Some of you speak of these valid successors of the Apostles as if they were rebellious children. They have authority, and you will answer for your attitude toward them.**
 
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Mysty101:
We’ve been over this many times.
I’ve said many times that I did not advocate denying Holy Communion, nor object to kneeling if there were provisions, or a few people receiving in that manner. If it is the common practice at a Mass I attend, I kneel.

This does not change the norm, nor does it change the fact that those who kneel are putting their individual piety over the decision of their shephers as to what best suits the common spiritual good of the community.

"Love thy neighbor as thyself"
**Have you ever heard of Apostolic succession? One of the marks of the Church which separates us from the Protestent sects? And valid ordination? **

Some of you speak of these valid successors of the Apostles as if they were rebellious children. They have authority, and you will answer for your attitude toward them.
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Have you heard that when a lower authority contradicts a higher authority, the higher authority must be obeyed? You seem to place your private judgment above that of the Vatican. You minimize their directives and authentic administration.

You over emphasize the authority of the local bishop, disregard and minimize Rome and attempt to hold the faithful to a standard not imposed by mother Church.

Again, you want to be the interpreter of all Church norms and law. You are not. Stop imposing your nuanced views on others.

We all will have much to answer for. Your clericalism and Americanism will not help you at that time.
 
The lower authority is not contradicting the higher authority

The GIRM is a higher authority than a letter, and as I said it the letter may not stand up to a challenge by the USCCB as to Canon Law.

I am not speaking about denying Holy Communion, I am talking about putting your decision over that of your shepherd as to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God,

This is pride.
 
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Mysty101:
The lower authority is not contradicting the higher authority

The GIRM is a higher authority than a letter, and as I said it the letter may not stand up to a challenge by the USCCB as to Canon Law.

I am not speaking about denying Holy Communion, I am talking about putting your decision over that of your shepherd as to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God,

This is pride.
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The “letter” is the rule from Rome. Your argument would make nothing binding because anything may be challenged.

You better be careful of accusing others of pride. My posts have been in union with Rome and their directives. I accept their decisions and interpretations. You do not. The measure of humility is obedience and those who choose to kneel are being obedient as Rome has stated.

You refuse to accept.
 
As the authority by virtue of whose recognitio the norm in question has attained the force of law, this Dicastery is competent to specify the manner in which the norm is to be understood for the sake of a proper application. Having received more than a few letters regarding this matter from different locations in the United States of America,*** the Congregation wishes to ensure that its position on the matter is clear.***

To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: ".…while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops’ Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion".

What does Rome have to do to get you to accept their authority?
 
By Canon Law, the norm is the norm, and cannot be qualified. It must be reprobated to be changed. This is the reason for the wording.

The letter says “May not be denied Holy Communion” The wording is very precise for a reason. This does not change the norm. I am not speaking of sin. I am speaking of subjecting your will to that of yourr shepherd.
 
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