Postures and Gestures: POLL on their meaning, importance, spiritual value

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At mass, one should follow those postures/gestures that are prescribed and omit any that are proscribed in the approved liturgical documents (taking into account national or local indults that have been lawfully granted.
At the same time, one should not immediately assume bad will or disobedience when he sees someone else not following them. They may not know any better, they may be physically unable to do them, etc. etc. etc.
 
Hi WhiteDove!

I had to go with the pre-Vatican II choice–I do really think there was more reverence involved in our gestures and postures back then. But nonetheless, I tend to be pretty tolerant these days!
😉
 
i think what is important is to follow what the general rule is and follow it. It is showing an obedience in the Catholic Church and reverence to our GOD.

If nobody follows the rule in your diocese, then dont be bother, just do what is written in the GIRM for it is the general rule on gestures and postures.

Dont be bothered if someone stared at you doing this gestures… coz it is not them you revere but GOD alone.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
The Orans position is what the priest does at the time of the Our Father.
Holding hands is inappropriate because it makes the focus horizontal instead of vertical to heaven and is just before the kiss of peace, where we greet our fellow Catholics.
Hi,
I have been following these threads, and I would like to know if your statement is documented in official liturgical instructions.
 
1yellow rose:
Hi,
I have been following these threads, and I would like to know if your statement is documented in official liturgical instructions.
Find the documentation yet?
 
1yellow rose:
Hi,
I have been following these threads, and I would like to know if your statement is documented in official liturgical instructions.
(The green dot next to one’s name means that the person is on line, if it is black, I’m not here)

How about if we let Karl Keating explain it…

May 23, 2004, 04:50 PM
Karl Keating
President, Catholic Answers
Join Date: April 1, 2004
Location: San Diego
Posts: 636
Code:
           images/icons/icon1.gif **Re: Holding hands at the Lord's Prayer**
In America, we shake hands with one another at the sign of peace. In Japan parishioners bow to one another. In other countries there may be other conventions.

At the sign of peace we’re saying “I’m at peace with you” or “I feel reconciled to you.” We convey that through words (“The peace of Christ be with you”) and through an action that is friendly but not intimate or intrusive (since most of those around us likely will be strangers).

This act of demonstrating reconciliation is undermined by holding hands at the Our Father. That prayer comes immediately before the sign of peace. In those parishes where people hold hands during that prayer, they are engaging in an action that is much more intimate than a handshake.

If we hold hands during the Our Father, it undercuts the significance of the following act, since holding hands trumps shaking hands. The sign of peace withers. A prescribed part of the liturgy (the sign of peace) loses much of its significance (much of its “sign value”) when parishioners hold hands at the Our Father.

(It’s good to say “I love you” to your spouse, but if you say that to everyone you meet on the street, your spouse will feel your words have been devalued.)

Another point: In our culture, hand-holding is approved of when adults hold the hands of young children, when boyfriend and girlfriend hold hands, and when married couples hold hands (though this commonly stops a few weeks after the honeymoon 😉 ).

We do not hold hands with strangers to whom we are introduced. We shake hands instead. Holding hands in such a situation would be perceived as too intimate. And in some cases, holding hands even suggests something unsavory, as when we see two men holding hands as they walk down the sidewalk.

Can anyone think of any situation, other than at the Our Father during Mass, in which people commonly hold hands with strangers? I can’t, and I think there is a reason: Hand holding is a sign of a certain intimacy. It’s not something we take lightly.

To hold hands with strangers at Mass strikes me as artificial, and it has become a detriment to a proper appreciation of the liturgy. Yes, it is easy enough to avoid, but I think it remains a problem. It is one kind of problem for those who don’t wish to hold hands, and it is another kind of problem (the problem of not understanding the role of signs in the Mass) for those who like the practice.
 
By official liturgical instruction, I am referring to the GIRM or other Official Church word.

There are many other good sources for both sides. This was a very intelligent and respectful article.

I have no problem with anyone presenting such an argument in a discussion.

However I do have a problem with childish ridicule of someone, just because they do no choose to worship as you have decided is best.
 
I’ve attended some worship service when the pastor, making the sign of the cross, looked like he/she was trying to swat a fly! :whistle:
 
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savone:
I’ve attended some worship service when the pastor, making the sign of the cross, looked like he/she was trying to swat a fly! :whistle:
Another charitable comment, which adds much to the discussion
 
I voted for “Cultural differences strongly influence this aspect of our spirituality.” I live in Japan and there are quite few differences from what I grew up with in Ireland. For example, at the “sign of peace” we put our hand together and bow to the people around us. At Mass, after the opening prayers, the priest wishes everyone good morning and we all bow towards him. We never kneel since shoes are worn in the chruch and to kneel on a foor that people walk on with shoes, would be unclean.
Gerry
 
1yellow rose:
Another charitable comment, which adds much to the discussion
If postures and gestures are to be done as signficant and meaningful in the leading of the liturgy, this necessarily indicates that those witnessing them will be able to realize the distinction between making the sign of the cross and swatting flies. Otherwise, why have them?

And, yes, sometimes when being descriptive it may not always sound so charitable.
 
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savone:
If postures and gestures are to be done as signficant and meaningful in the leading of the liturgy, this necessarily indicates that those witnessing them will be able to realize the distinction between making the sign of the cross and swatting flies. Otherwise, why have them?

And, yes, sometimes when being descriptive it may not always sound so charitable.
There are many ways to communicate. Different phrasing could have communicated your thoughts without the little slam.

This has been my point since entering this discussion.
 
Urgh! I got my pre and post mixed up, and picked the wrong answer! I prefer the pre-Vatican II worship, although I don’t think that the new rite is invalid. It just seems more Protestant and common-place to me.

This is coming from someone who was not a Catholic until the 1970’s, by the way. 👋
 
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TeriGator:
Urgh! I got my pre and post mixed up, and picked the wrong answer! I prefer the pre-Vatican II worship, although I don’t think that the new rite is invalid. It just seems more Protestant and common-place to me.

This is coming from someone who was not a Catholic until the 1970’s, by the way. 👋
Watch yourself Teri! Stating that the post-Vatican II mass looks more Protestant, will get some people in a huff !

But I fully agree with you.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
Watch yourself Teri! Stating that the post-Vatican II mass looks more Protestant, will get some people in a huff !
But I fully agree with you.
You say Charismatic worship seems too protestant for you, yet say that protestants seem more reverant to you and you can understand someone leaving a valid Mass to go to a protestant Church, because you don’t like the way The Mass is celebrated?

I really need to respond to a post of yours from the other thread. Our Pastor once preached an entire homily about how sometimes we must say something, just to let others know our viewpoint, even if it does not seem to accomplish anything. We never know—we may have planted a seed.
**
****The few times I have tried to be sweet and kind here, I have been chased by poster and slammed. ****
**
Sweet & kind? Since when is ridicule of a legitimate prayer posture, and those who use it “sweet & kind”
**
Some people talk in circles and continue to give the same references yet won’t accept another viewpoint.
**
Another valid viewpoint? You were asked for an official liturgical position, and you quoted PBS regarding the orans position. I quoted the Catholic enc and the USCCB. This was discussed in the other thread which was not only closed, but totally deleted. The USCCB (official word in the US) said that there is no posture prescribed for the Lord’s Prayer, when asked about the Orans position. I was asking for official liturgical instructions .There does not seem to be any. As I said before, if anything not mentioned is forbidden (as you say), then a folded hands posture is also forbidden. If we are allowed one legitimate prayer posture, then another is also allowed.
**
I have stated many times on these thread that I have absolutely no problem with someone praying in the Orans position. Do it in private.
**
And if someone said the same about the folded hands posture how would you feel? Who are you to tell anyone they must assume a legitimate prayer posture in private? It is not up to you to tell anyone what to do, even if the situation is abusive, certainly not because you don’t like something. You are instructed to report your concern to someone who has the authority to address it. .
**
But so many time here I also have been told that I should accept the innovations because God is there with us. No matter what we do. That is questioning my spirituality. They can dish it out but can’t take it.

**
Who on this board said this to you? I know I never told you how to pray, and I don’t think anyone else did either. I became very angry with you because you ridiculed your fellow Catholics. And you certainly did ridicule—Sweet & nice?
**
**
I try to keep it light. I feel bad for those people who are not strong enough in their convictions to think that what they are doing is absolutely right, no matter what is said. I knew that when I got slammed by the moderists, yet did not chastise and complain.

You can’t possibly believe what you are saying. Football plays? Saying protestants are more reverant?

You did not chastise or complain? Exactly how would you describe your posts about raising hands, the orans posture and holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer? If you do not realize that this was uncharitable ridicule, you really better get some help with learning how to express a difference of opinion.
 
And one last thing.
**
**Originally Posted by netmil(name removed by moderator)
****But I don’t whine about it or accuse people of ridculing ****Christianity because of it.

As was explained many times no one accused anyone of ridiculing Christianity. What was said was
Discussion & disagrement is fine—Ridicule is against
Christianity, and quite possibly sinful.

In other words–

Ridiculing anyone is against Christianity

or it is unChristian to ridicule anyone, especially someone for their prayer posture.
 
I just don’t get it! Who cares what gestures we use. We are supposed to be in church to give homage to God. If someone watches me pray and does not agree how I do it, he/she should not be in church. Or, maybe we should have the church police who go around and tell us how to/not to hold our hands, join or not join hands, kneel or not kneel, close our eyes or keep them open. We are individuals praising Our Lord. As long as we praise in a way that is not distracting to others, I’m sure He approves. I pray all day every day. I offer up my day and all I do before I put my feet on the floor. So, doing laundry, scrubbing the bathroom sink or mowing the lawn are all prayers. Not is church, but I think that is o.k. too.

Love and peace
 
I really couldn’t vote because I couldn’t find an answer that fit my feelings on the subject.

I don’t know, for example, if it is written anywhere how one should enter and exit a pew, or how they should present themselves when walking past the center of the church (past the tabernacle). But I was put to shame by a girl maybe 10 or 11 years old. She walks through church quietly and slowly, and with a serene face that has a depth of concentration on it. As she enters the pew, she drops slowly and with great purpose and sincerity to genuflect, going to the ground. I could*** feel*** her reverence as she paid* respect*.

Note that reverence and respect are in the same sentence. One should pay due respect to the Lord and reverence happens. I see this kind of deep, purposeful and sincere genuflection in the churches with large orthodox catholic populations.

Is it being judgemental? I don’t think so. I know personally how often I’ve “limped” my way into the pew with a “hiya Lord” attitude (all in a split second before I went on to daydreaming as I waited for mass to begin). Then I would slouch directly into my seat without kneeling for even a brief moment to pay respect to our Lord. It didn’t do anything for* me*. Well, that little girl taught me a big lesson. It’s not about me, it’s about Him and he should get due respect so that reverence can happen. It took me just a few days to begin to have reverence after being respectful to the Lord.

I also believe in what a priest at a local parish said this past Sunday about genuflection and kneeling. He said that the knee is a sign of strength when straight, but a sign of humility when bent. The Lord looks for us to humble ourselves and we do this by kneeling before him.

I’m on board and my untrained knees and knee muscles are getting a real workout.

:bowdown:

Now maybe people show their reverence in different ways, but I’ll tell you that I’ve tried it all and nothing helps me to be reverent more than showing simple gestures of respect.
 
Hi Mom,

And peace to you.

It is not quite as simple as it seems. There are certain instructions in the GIRM, which we are told to follow, because we are one Body, and no one should stand out.

Most people are very passionate in their beliefs, and this is certainly a good thing. The flip side, which is bad, is when people think it is up to them to enforce their interpretation of the rules, and/or ridicule people for their worship, especially when the instruction is not specific.
 
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Mysty101:
I really need to respond to a post of yours from the other thread. .
I cannot believe that you got back here after being suspended and pulled posts from a closed thread. Amazing.

Rant all you like, I’m not even going to bother to read all the stuff you wrote. You seem to have a kind of obsesssion that I don’t care to deal with.
 
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