Potential grounds for an annulment?

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Hello. I have posted about my marriage in the past–a perusal of my old posts will show that it’s been quite rocky for us as we started off with some major issues.

My question is: does the following scenario sound like grounds for an annulment:

We dated on and off for 5 yrs before getting married. I felt quite strongly like we were NOT a good match and I broke up with him MANY times for that reason. We got back together because he’d cry and essentially beg to get back together and I’d feel so sorry for him and take him back. I married him because he promised me up and down that he could make me happy despite my reluctance. I have journal entries going back to before we married and in them I am clearly concerned and negative about the vision of us getting married. I had cold feet all the way until the wedding. My family wanted me to marry him and my sister even cried when I broke up w/him while dating.

Obviously, marriage hasn’t changed any of our issues. He is not physically or verbally abusive, but emotionally, yes. And yes, there are young children involved. I spoke to a priest and he said that we should get counseling and exhaust all avenues before moving towards the next step—which I wholeheartedly agree with. The priest also told me that marriage tribunals won’t even LOOK at your case if you haven’t already been civilly divorced for a year+. Considering the problems and red flags that preceded our wedding, do you think I have a case?
 
revertgirl said:
Hello. I have posted about my marriage in the past–a perusal of my old posts will show that it’s been quite rocky for us as we started off with some major issues.

My question is: does the following scenario sound like grounds for an annulment:

We dated on and off for 5 yrs before getting married. I felt quite strongly like we were NOT a good match and I broke up with him MANY times for that reason. We got back together because he’d cry and essentially beg to get back together and I’d feel so sorry for him and take him back. I married him because he promised me up and down that he could make me happy despite my reluctance. I have journal entries going back to before we married and in them I am clearly concerned and negative about the vision of us getting married. I had cold feet all the way until the wedding. My family wanted me to marry him and my sister even cried when I broke up w/him while dating.

Obviously, marriage hasn’t changed any of our issues. He is not physically or verbally abusive, but emotionally, yes. And yes, there are young children involved. I spoke to a priest and he said that we should get counseling and exhaust all avenues before moving towards the next step—which I wholeheartedly agree with. The priest also told me that marriage tribunals won’t even LOOK at your case if you haven’t already been civilly divorced for a year+. Considering the problems and red flags that preceded our wedding, do you think I have a case?
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No. Blowing up your family so you can go find “happiness” is not grounds for an annulment. Anyone who tells you otherwise is doing a disservice to your soul. Perhaps you shouldn’t have married this man, but you did and made babies with him. Don’t make your kids another statistic.
 
vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/__P3Z.HTM

Unless one of our moderators or posters just happens to be a qualified jurist in canon law, this question was placed here imprudently. You have received good advice from a wise priest. You can look around until you find the answer you want, (that’s how the Washington Post and New York Times found Cardinals Kasper and Marx) and chances are you will find someone (fill-in you own word for the intellectually deprived here, I don’t want trouble with the moderators.) who will agree with that you should get a divorce and annulment.

That won’t make it right.

The annulment is not a magic wand that makes your lout of a husband disappear. It is a pronouncement of something that was already known, that a marriage is invalid.

Listen to your priest. Unlike the posters on this thread, he does know what he’s talking about.

(Conundrum: I to am a poster…🤷:whacky::hmmm:)
 
No one here will be able to tell you if you have a case. Simply having cold feet and breaking up several times does not automatically invalidate consent at the time of marriage. At best it might show that you lacked good judgement or emotional maturity for going forward with the marriage, but further investigation would have to be done to determine if it compromised your ability to give consent.

If you married with the intent for him to make you happy then I would certainly follow the priests advice to attend counseling. It does show a lack of understanding about marriage. Our spouses’ job is not to bring us happiness. For the most part, we choose to be happy or unhappy about what others do. That being said, counseling will only work if both of you want things to work. Even then it’s not guaranteed to “fix” things. If either partner is just going through the motions to check a box before running? Things will be much more difficult.

Unless the abuse is sever enough to cause imminent danger then yes you should exhaust all avenues before considering divorce. Counseling can help sort out simply hurt feelings from actual abusive behavior. It can also help identify and possibly change behaviors that lead to emotional abuse.
 
Usige said:
Counseling can help sort out simply hurt feelings from actual abusive behavior. It can also help identify and possibly change behaviors that lead to emotional abuse.
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Look for a behavioral therapist. My husband went through that at a Christian counseling center that also had Catholics on staff. They help you work through what is not working in your relationship. Giving tools for better communication. No one is perfect but you can fix broken.

I agree with Antegin, listen to your priest.
 
I know very little about annulments, but it doesn’t sound at all like you have a case for one. Keep working with the priest and praying to God for His will for your marriage. Strike up a friendship with St. Rita, who is the patroness of troubled marriages. St. Catherine of Genoa would also be a good saint to turn to for help. They both had spouses who were abusive, unfaithful and difficult to deal with. I’ll be praying for you!
 
You have to meet with your pastor or trusted priest to inquire if you have a case.
They are the only ones who can help you, and they will need a lot of facts to proceed.
Praying you seek the proper advice in person.
 
We cannot make that distinction, and unfortunately the Church has given undue power to the state over her own sacraments. There is no way for a civilly married Catholic to know their marriage is valid. The Church requires you to obtain permission from the state to investigate Her own sacrament!
 
Lest readers think that I’m simply looking for happiness:rolleyes:…what I’m trying to demonstrate is the fact that our early relationship was fraught with problems and especially extreme reluctance on my part. I GET that marriage is not simply about finding someone to make you happy. However, it’s my understanding that declarations of nullity are made when there is reason to believe that there were impediments (e.g., pressure applied by others, immaturity, reluctance, etc.) before getting married. Obviously there are no cannon lawyers present but I simply wanted to ask if sounded like some of our early problems potentially sounded like impediments.

As I said, I wholeheartedly agree with my priest which is why we’re presently going the counseling/retrouvaille route.
 
revertgirl said:
Lest readers think that I’m simply looking for happiness:rolleyes:…what I’m trying to demonstrate is the fact that our early relationship was fraught with problems and especially extreme reluctance on my part. I GET that marriage is not simply about finding someone to make you happy. However, it’s my understanding that declarations of nullity are made when there is reason to believe that there were impediments (e.g., pressure applied by others, immaturity, reluctance, etc.) before getting married. Obviously there are no cannon lawyers present but I simply wanted to ask if sounded like some of our early problems potentially sounded like impediments.

As I said, I wholeheartedly agree with my priest which is why we’re presently going the counseling/retrouvaille route.
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The Church will not investigate if your marriage was Null (didn’t exist) unless the state gives it’s permission (divorce)
Sadly there is no way to know until you go through that process. Odd that the Church rails against divorce but requires it to answer your question about your sacrament.🤷

If I wish to investigate my baptism, I can. But my marriage (which is very strong and good) I cannot. I must only “presume” I have a sacrament. 🤷 And now we see with the SSM problems why it was a bad idea for the Church to “marry” the state in this sacrament.
 
Revertgirl,

I hope you will listen to me.

You were immature and weak before you were married. Stop being immature and weak now. You choose to marry your husband. Now live with your choice. If your husband seems emotionally abusive, he is most likely reacting to the terrible position you have put your entire family in. Stop it. May I suggest that you start being grateful for everything he has done for you in spite of your incredible inability to make a decision and stick with it? Your weakness now is putting the happiness of the children that you choose to create in jeopardy. I am divorced. I was also an immature person. Probably my ex-husband and I could have been a better match to begin with. But none of that matters to my children, who have suffered immensely from our divorce. Stop thinking only of yourself, change your attitude, and do NOT be the cause of your children suffering!

May I also suggest that you read The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands? Just give it a try. As part of your growth to maturity, learn how to be a good wife. Give it an honest shot. You owe at least that much to the people whose lives you are stand to destroy by your failure to commit to your marriage. And spend a lot of time on gratitude for what you have, and for what you don’t have (divorce attorneys, law guardians for your children as they suffer through your divorce, judges who will make immensely important decisions for your children because you are a person who can’t decide things for herself or because you and their father can’t or won’t agree, bills in the many thousands for attorneys’ fees, an ex-husband who remarries and brings a new mom into your children’s lives, forever uncomfortable family events for your children, two Christmases forever, two birthdays forever - would you like me to go on? Because that is the reality of the fire with which you are playing!!!)

You cannot go back to being the girl you were before you were married. You will not get a do-over of the life you would have had if you had had the backbone not to marry your husband. Get a backbone now and live the commitment that you made.

God bless you and your family.
 
I don’t know your situation, OP, but I would ask you this - just to ponder for yourself, not necessarily to answer on the thread:

If you knew your marriage was valid, would you still seek divorce anyway (knowing that you would not be free to marry again unless your husband predeceased you?)

I don’t know how long you have been married. My husband and I just had our fifth anniversary. It has been a hard five years - two (soon to be three) kids, lots of financial troubles, postpartum depression, and in general a lot of growing up needed on both our parts. I’ve realized that in some ways we were woefully unprepared for marriage and did not make wise decisions prior to marriage. And yet, on our wedding day, we consented to marry each other for better or for worse. It has taken us some time to figure out how to do that (and we’re still working on it and probably will until we die.) From what I understand we’re in a very hard part now - lots of little kids, not a lot of security, and the “bloom” is wearing off. Now it’s time to work. It’s not very sexy, but there it is. And I’m no longer despairing over it.

As it stands now, your marriage is presumed valid. I would do what you can to preserve it, especially if there are children. If you *must *separate, then you must, but even then it doesn’t mean that your marriage isn’t valid.

ETA: Actually, this may sound all doom and gloomy, but really, I don’t mean it to be. I think my husband and I are probably right now in the best place in our relationship we’ve ever been. We are stronger together than apart. We are a team. And we love and sacrifice for each other. We had to both be willing to do that, and it took us time to both be in that place together, but I do think for most couples that is possible.

I struggled for a time thinking my husband was emotionally abusive, too. It turns out that the major problem was actually that I expected him to know my feelings without my being vulnerable enough to tell him, and then I’d shut him out and lo and behold! he’d listen to that. Would it have been better for him to push me a bit and say, “Hey, let me love you?” Maybe, but that would have been expecting him to be superhuman while I was content to just be human. Turns out we’re both just human. 🤷
 
revertgirl said:
Lest readers think that I’m simply looking for happiness:rolleyes:…what I’m trying to demonstrate is the fact that our early relationship was fraught with problems and especially extreme reluctance on my part. I GET that marriage is not simply about finding someone to make you happy. However, it’s my understanding that declarations of nullity are made when there is reason to believe that there were impediments (e.g., pressure applied by others, immaturity, reluctance, etc.) before getting married. Obviously there are no cannon lawyers present but I simply wanted to ask if sounded like some of our early problems potentially sounded like impediments. …
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Hello,

If Betty has sincere and real doubts about the prospect of marriage to Barney but decides to go ahead with the wedding anyway, she may have acted imprudently. Tribunals are not to be concerned with (im)prudence in marital decision-making, however.

I would ask: did you commit to this marriage? It seems like you did. It really is as simple as that. So, speculating on whether or not a particular Judge in a particular Tribunal would entertain your hypothetical case…I don’t think I see much light at the end of that tunnel.

Dan
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
… If I wish to investigate my baptism, I can. But my marriage (which is very strong and good) I cannot. I must only “presume” I have a sacrament. …
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Hello,

No tribunal would ever “investigate” your baptism unless there were reasons to doubt it.

As for the presumption question–the law can only have presumptions regarding the validity and binding nature of certain actions. You and me, as individuals, don’t have to limit ourselves to that notion. I can honestly and blamelessly say that I “know” that my marriage and my baptism are valid. The law, however, restrains itself to “presuming” that they are valid.

All that being said, I understand your opposition to the (basically mandated) “get divorced first” "guideline."I also oppose an across the board application of that rule.

Dan
 
AnyFriendofGod said:
Revertgirl,

I hope you will listen to me.

You were immature and weak before you were married. Stop being immature and weak now. You choose to marry your husband. Now live with your choice. If your husband seems emotionally abusive, he is most likely reacting to the terrible position you have put your entire family in. Stop it. May I suggest that you start being grateful for everything he has done for you in spite of your incredible inability to make a decision and stick with it? Your weakness now is putting the happiness of the children that you choose to create in jeopardy. I am divorced. I was also an immature person. Probably my ex-husband and I could have been a better match to begin with. But none of that matters to my children, who have suffered immensely from our divorce. Stop thinking only of yourself, change your attitude, and do NOT be the cause of your children suffering!

May I also suggest that you read The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands? Just give it a try. As part of your growth to maturity, learn how to be a good wife. Give it an honest shot. You owe at least that much to the people whose lives you are stand to destroy by your failure to commit to your marriage. And spend a lot of time on gratitude for what you have, and for what you don’t have (divorce attorneys, law guardians for your children as they suffer through your divorce, judges who will make immensely important decisions for your children because you are a person who can’t decide things for herself or because you and their father can’t or won’t agree, bills in the many thousands for attorneys’ fees, an ex-husband who remarries and brings a new mom into your children’s lives, forever uncomfortable family events for your children, two Christmases forever, two birthdays forever - would you like me to go on? Because that is the reality of the fire with which you are playing!!!)

You cannot go back to being the girl you were before you were married. You will not get a do-over of the life you would have had if you had had the backbone not to marry your husband. Get a backbone now and live the commitment that you made.

God bless you and your family.
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Your post really spoke to me. Thank you and cheers for taking the time 🙂
 
dans0622 said:
Hello,

No tribunal would ever “investigate” your baptism unless there were reasons to doubt it.

As for the presumption question–the law can only have presumptions regarding the validity and binding nature of certain actions. You and me, as individuals, don’t have to limit ourselves to that notion. I can honestly and blamelessly say that I “know” that my marriage and my baptism are valid. The law, however, restrains itself to “presuming” that they are valid.

All that being said, I understand your opposition to the (basically mandated) “get divorced first” "guideline."I also oppose an across the board application of that rule.

Dan
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You do not know your marriage is valid. You believe it is.

The Church will not answer you if it is or not even if you have doubts until you get a certificate by the government…

You don’t see a problem with this?

FWIW the Church investigates baptisms all the time. If a person says, I don’t know if a trinitarian formula was used or not during my baptism the Church will find out… No need to go to court, no need to obtain a certificate from the state.

Recently, there was a matter in Argentina about ordinations. (specifically the SSPX) The Church had to certify to the state that the SSPX were Catholics. But it was not the other way around where the Church needed a decree from the state renouncing the ordination…

Part of the problem as well is that a marriage involves two people. So you cannot know yours is valid any more than you can know what your spouse thought at the time…😉
 
Hoosier_Daddy said:
You do not know your marriage is valid. You believe it is.

The Church will not answer you if it is or not even if you have doubts until you get a certificate by the government…

You don’t see a problem with this? …

Part of the problem as well is that a marriage involves two people. So you cannot know yours is valid any more than you can know what your spouse thought at the time…😉
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Hello,

As I said, I think it is a “rule” that should not be set in stone. I don’t know how strict tribunals are in implementing it…I have yet to see anyone even ask my own tribunal to examine a marriage before divorce.

How can you tell me that I don’t know what my wife was thinking? Putting that aside, though, if you want to say that you will only assert that you “believe” that your marriage is valid, that’s ok. My main point is that you don’t have to limit yourself to “presumption” as that term is used in law.

A Tribunal would never say that a particular marriage is valid, by the way.

Dan
 
dans0622 said:
Hello,

As I said, I think it is a “rule” that should not be set in stone. I don’t know how strict tribunals are in implementing it…I have yet to see anyone even ask my own tribunal to examine a marriage before divorce.

How can you tell me that I don’t know what my wife was thinking? Putting that aside, though, if you want to say that you will only assert that you “believe” that your marriage is valid, that’s ok. My main point is that you don’t have to limit yourself to “presumption” as that term is used in law.

A Tribunal would never say that a particular marriage is valid, by the way.

Dan
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I am not sure what your point is.
My main point is that you don’t have to limit yourself to “presumption” as that term is used in law.
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Ok, so show where you can use the term “knowledge” as in I have True Knowledge that my sacrament (marriage) is valid? If this were the case, there would not be so many annulments. One could simply find out the validity of their sacrament. But yet, many who have the Presumption of validity do so wrongly, finding out later, after the divorce and annulment.

My main points are that
  1. We cannot tell the OP what they wish to know.
  2. The Church will not attempt to help the OP find out the validity of the sacrament until a divorce is had.
  3. The Church has in effect given undo power to the state in regards to this sacrament. It is the ONLY sacrament the Church requires something from the state to investigate.
Since you are a Canon lawyer and have given the answer that it is a “rule that should not be set in stone” kindly direct me to how I can find out if my marriage is valid?
 
As an “aside” what do folks consider “so many” annulments?

We have an average of about 2 per year at my parish. Sometimes only one.
It’s my experience as a parish employee that not many people even seek one.

If it’s too off-topic…never mind. 😊
 
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