Pour Wine Before Mass

[Mordocai]

My Pastor is wanting to start having the wine already poured in the Chalices before Mass starts (covered with a veil of course so no particles get in the wine)
Is this liturgically accurate? I didn’t want to question him on it since I wasn’t 100% sure and he’s my Pastor.

Does the GIRM say anything? I don’t have a copy (I really oughta get one, but then I’m afraid that if I read it, I’ll start to see all sorts of abuses!)

Thanks for your help!

God Bless, Mary Keep,
Mordocai

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

My Pastor is wanting to start having the wine already poured in the Chalices before Mass starts (covered with a veil of course so no particles get in the wine)
Is this liturgically accurate? I didn’t want to question him on it since I wasn’t 100% sure and he’s my Pastor.

Does the GIRM say anything? I don’t have a copy (I really oughta get one, but then I’m afraid that if I read it, I’ll start to see all sorts of abuses!)

Thanks for your help!

God Bless, Mary Keep,
Mordocai

Sure that is fine. There is another thread on this topic.

 

[Servulus]

Not only is it accurate, it’s mandated by sections 106 and 117 of Redemptionis Sacramentum.

Hope that helps.

 

[John_Lilburne]

Not only is it accurate, it’s mandated by sections 106 and 117 of Redemptionis Sacramentum.

Hope that helps.

I disagree, the pouring of wine into chalices before Mass is not suggested by the 2002 Roman Missal. It is certainly not required by 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum.

What Redemptionis Sacramentum has is:
“[106.] However, the pouring of the Blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided, lest anything should happen that would be to the detriment of so great a mystery.”

So if several chalices are to be used the wine is poured into them before the consecration, not after.

The time when the wine is poured into the chalices is after the offertory procession, just have the bread is placed on the altar.

From the 2002 General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :

"141. At the altar the priest accepts the paten with the bread. With both hands he holds it slightly raised above the altar and says quietly, Benedictus es, Domine (Blessed are you, Lord). Then he places the paten with the bread on the corporal.
“142. After this, as the minister presents the cruets, the priest stands at the side of the altar and pours wine and a little water into the chalice, saying quietly, Per huius aquae (By the mystery of this water).”

“178. After the Prayer of the Faithful, while the priest remains at the chair, the deacon prepares the altar, assisted by the acolyte, but it is the deacon’s place to take care of the sacred vessels himself. He also assists the priest in receiving the people’s gifts. Next, he hands the priest the paten with the bread to be consecrated, pours wine and a little water into the chalice, saying quietly, Per huius aquae (By the mystery of this water), and after this presents the chalice to the priest. He may also carry out the preparation of the chalice at the credence table.”

These actions are clearly to take place during Mass, not before it. The complete prayer to be said inaudibly while the wine goes from the cruet to the chalice is: “By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity.”

In GIRM n. 118 it has a detailed list of what is to be prepared before Mass:

“On the credence table: the chalice, a corporal, a purificator, and, if appropriate, the pall; the paten and, if needed, ciboria; bread for the Communion of the priest who presides, the deacon, the ministers, and the people; cruets containing the wine and the water, unless all of these are presented by the faithful in procession at the Offertory;”

Again, the wine starts in the cruet, not in the chalice or chalices.

 

[Servulus]

I apologize for my lack of clarity, and for misunderstanding the question. I was considering the necessity for fractioning the wine prior to the consecration.

 

[Mordocai]

see, thats what i thought too about how it had to be in the wine cruet and not in the chalices before hand…
but what am i to do?
ask my Pastor not to?
any suggestions in how to go about this?

the hard part is i recently sent a letter to him (and the other priest at my parish) about how happy i was they were there able to serve the parish and that i was proud to have them there. as an encouragement type thing, cuz im sure priests get bogged down ya know?
so its almost like “Hey! great job! but fix this”

ya know? what should i do?

God Bless, Mary Keep,
Mordocai

 

[John_Lilburne]

Wine should be transferred from a cruet to a chalice during Mass, according to the Roman Missal.

If the priest is worried about it taking too long to fill all the chalices perhaps he would agree to fill just one.

If he will not do this he is failing to follow the liturgical book. It should be highlighted to him that this is what he is doing. It is a right of the congregation, altar servers and priests that the liturgical books be followed.

According to the 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum:
“[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.”

What is in your power to fix this?
Ask for clarification from the priest – does he realise GIRM 118(c) requires the use of cruets?
Ask the priest to use the cruets, explaining that they are required?
Bring forward the cruets during Mass, even if he does not want them?
Refuse to fill the chalices before Mass?
Resign as an altar server?
Discuss the problem with others, who have more power to persuade the priest?
Write a letter of complaint to the bishop and Vatican?
Bring a tribunal case against the priest for failing to follow canon 846: “The liturgical books, approved by the competent authority, are to be faithfully followed in the celebration of the sacraments.”?
Publicise the problem?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I disagree, the pouring of wine into chalices before Mass is not suggested by the 2002 Roman Missal. It is certainly not required by 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum.

What Redemptionis Sacramentum has is:
“[106.] However, the pouring of the Blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided, lest anything should happen that would be to the detriment of so great a mystery.”

So if several chalices are to be used the wine is poured into them before the consecration, not after.

The time when the wine is poured into the chalices is after the offertory procession, just have the bread is placed on the altar.

From the 2002 General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :

"141. At the altar the priest accepts the paten with the bread. With both hands he holds it slightly raised above the altar and says quietly, Benedictus es, Domine (Blessed are you, Lord). Then he places the paten with the bread on the corporal.
“142. After this, as the minister presents the cruets, the priest stands at the side of the altar and pours wine and a little water into the chalice, saying quietly, Per huius aquae (By the mystery of this water).”

“178. After the Prayer of the Faithful, while the priest remains at the chair, the deacon prepares the altar, assisted by the acolyte, but it is the deacon’s place to take care of the sacred vessels himself. He also assists the priest in receiving the people’s gifts. Next, he hands the priest the paten with the bread to be consecrated, pours wine and a little water into the chalice, saying quietly, Per huius aquae (By the mystery of this water), and after this presents the chalice to the priest. He may also carry out the preparation of the chalice at the credence table.”

These actions are clearly to take place during Mass, not before it. The complete prayer to be said inaudibly while the wine goes from the cruet to the chalice is: “By the mystery of this water and wine may we come to share in the divinity of Christ, who humbled himself to share in our humanity.”

In GIRM n. 118 it has a detailed list of what is to be prepared before Mass:

“On the credence table: the chalice, a corporal, a purificator, and, if appropriate, the pall; the paten and, if needed, ciboria; bread for the Communion of the priest who presides, the deacon, the ministers, and the people; cruets containing the wine and the water, unless all of these are presented by the faithful in procession at the Offertory;”

Again, the wine starts in the cruet, not in the chalice or chalices.

This would be speaking of the main chalice, not the additional chalices which do not require the addition of water to them.

 

[JC_Nixon]

This would be speaking of the main chalice, not the additional chalices which do not require the addition of water to them.

Precisely.

We have the ‘cruet’ of wine at the back of the Church to be brought up with the unconsecrated hosts at the Presentation of the Gifts. There is enough wine in the cruet for the priest’s chalice. The filled chalices for the distribution of the Precious Blood to the faithful are brought to the altar by an EMHC at the time of the Presentation of the Gifts.

This was instituted about 2 years ago when our new Pastor realized our procedure of transferring the Consecrated Blood to the chalices was against the GIRM, etc. After much discussion and checking with Diocese, we changed to our current and correct procedure.

 

[Mordocai]

Yes, he still pours into the larger chalice, but i just didnt know if it had to be poured for all chalices.
but now its clearer, no abuse right?

 

[John_Lilburne]

Yes, he still pours into the larger chalice, but i just didnt know if it had to be poured for all chalices.
but now its clearer, no abuse right?

I would still see it as an imperfect following of the Roman Missal, specifically 2002 GIRM n. 118(c):

"118. The following are also to be prepared: …
“c. On the credence table: the chalice, a corporal, a purificator, and, if appropriate, the pall; the paten and, if needed, ciboria; bread for the Communion of the priest who presides, the deacon, the ministers, and the people; cruets containing the wine and the water, unless all of these are presented by the faithful in procession at the Offertory;”

Only cruets are mentioned as having water and wine in them.

If the wine is poured into the chalices during Mass it is clearer what is happening. It is following the encouragement of the 2002 GIRM n. 73: “The offerings are then brought forward. It is praiseworthy for the bread and wine to be presented by the faithful.” The Norms for the USA at nccbuscc.org/liturgy/current/norms.shtml sound more strict about this in n. 36:
“The gifts of bread and wine are brought forward by the faithful and received by the priest or deacon or at a convenient place.”

Obviously it is a more serious abuse if there are no cruets and no prayer when the wine and water are added to a chalice.

So it would be harder to convince a priest not to pre-fill any chalices. He could make the following arguments:

• the current Roman Missal does not have detailed instructions on using more than one chalice;
• the reason for using extraordinary ministers is to avoid unduly prolonging the Mass, so anything else that prolongs it is suspect;
• the reason for preventing the Precious Blood being poured into other chalices is that it may be spilt, so the same risk exists for the wine before consecration;

So I can understand the priest’s decision. But I would not encourage it myself. But I would see it as a fairly minor issue.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I would still see it as an imperfect following of the Roman Missal, specifically 2002 GIRM n. 118(c):

"118. The following are also to be prepared: …
“c. On the credence table: the chalice, a corporal, a purificator, and, if appropriate, the pall; the paten and, if needed, ciboria; bread for the Communion of the priest who presides, the deacon, the ministers, and the people; cruets containing the wine and the water, unless all of these are presented by the faithful in procession at the Offertory;”

Only cruets are mentioned as having water and wine in them.

If the wine is poured into the chalices during Mass it is clearer what is happening. It is following the encouragement of the 2002 GIRM n. 73: “The offerings are then brought forward. It is praiseworthy for the bread and wine to be presented by the faithful.” The Norms for the USA at nccbuscc.org/liturgy/current/norms.shtml sound more strict about this in n. 36:
“The gifts of bread and wine are brought forward by the faithful and received by the priest or deacon or at a convenient place.”

Obviously it is a more serious abuse if there are no cruets and no prayer when the wine and water are added to a chalice.

So it would be harder to convince a priest not to pre-fill any chalices. He could make the following arguments:

• the current Roman Missal does not have detailed instructions on using more than one chalice;
• the reason for using extraordinary ministers is to avoid unduly prolonging the Mass, so anything else that prolongs it is suspect;
• the reason for preventing the Precious Blood being poured into other chalices is that it may be spilt, so the same risk exists for the wine before consecration;

So I can understand the priest’s decision. But I would not encourage it myself. But I would see it as a fairly minor issue.

I’m not 100% certain but I believe the GIRM never says chalices. It only refers to “the chalice”, meaning the priests chalice. The GiIRM was written without multiple chalices being the norm.

 

[John_Lilburne]

I’m not 100% certain but I believe the GIRM never says chalices. It only refers to “the chalice”, meaning the priests chalice. The GiIRM was written without multiple chalices being the norm.

The word “chalices” is used four times.
From the 2002 General Introduction to the Roman Missal (GIRM) which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“207. In the sanctuary there should be prepared
a. Seats and texts for the concelebrating priests;
b. On the credence table: a chalice of sufficient size or else several chalices.”
246a "The concelebrants approach the altar one after another or, if two chalices are used, two by two. They genuflect, partake of the Blood of Christ, wipe the rim of the chalice, and return to their seats. "
“285. For Communion under both kinds the following should be prepared:
a. If Communion from the chalice is carried out by communicants’ drinking directly from the chalice, a chalice of a sufficiently large size or several chalices are prepared. Care should, however, be taken in planning lest beyond what is needed of the Blood of Christ remains to be consumed at the end of the celebration.”
“330. As regards chalices and other vessels that are intended to serve as receptacles for the Blood of the Lord, they are to have bowls of nonabsorbent material. The base, on the other hand, may be made of other solid and worthy materials.”

 

[JC_Nixon]

I believe if you read further along in the GIRM, specifically Chapter IX - Adaptations Within the Competence of Bishops and Bishops’ Conferences, that there is a certain amount of latitude given to the Bishop of the Diocese to approve adaptations within his Diocese so long as they are not in direct abuse of the norm. I am a stickler when it comes to going ‘by the book’, but I think this is splitting hairs over the chalices. Our pastor has worked diligently in the past 2 years to be sure we are doing everything in accord with the GIRM and the Bishop’s directives, so I have to believe that bringing the chalices for the faithful to the altar already filled with wine is not an abuse.