Pouring the Precious Blood

[Crusader]

It is striking to see how different parishes/places of worship respond to directives from the Church.

I watched James Cardinal Hickey’s Requiem Mass at the National Basilica on EWTN and there was not a glass flagon in sight. There were 2-3 dozen gorgeous chalices of all sorts right on the altar. It was actually a wonderful display – chalices of all types and sizes. Per RS, there was no distribution of the Precious Blood into different vessels.

Conversely I just watched a Mass from the Basilica at Notre Dame University. Glass flagons galore. Distribution of the Precious Blood into many chalices just before communion.

If anything, the Mass at the National Shrine was larger than the one at Notre Dame so size isn’t an excuse. One wonders why some comply with the Church while others do not…

 

[Ray_Marshall]

Crusader:

One wonders why some comply with the Church while others do not…

I also wonder. Especially when you figure there must be many chalices in storage. Glass just showed up recently. What happened to all the gold chalices.

Or is it that some feel that uniformity of shape rather than the use of precious metals is the desired goal?

 

[Panis_Angelicas]

Ray Marshall:

What happened to all the gold chalices.

Ever try visiting ebay and searching under “Catholic” or “chalice” ? Sadly some lucky Wiccan is probably sacrificing to the gods with chalices once used to contain the Precious Blood…
The glass chalices won’t last.
They’ll chip, crack, get scratches, and have to be discarded.
Then, they’ll be looking for something more durable…(Hopefully, not plastic!)

 

[Crusader]

Ray Marshall:

I also wonder. Especially when you figure there must be many chalices in storage. Glass just showed up recently. What happened to all the gold chalices.

Or is it that some feel that uniformity of shape rather than the use of precious metals is the desired goal?

Oh, Notre Dame had a large number of uniform and rather plain gold chalices, but the point was the Precious Blood rather than the wine was distributed amongst the chalices and the Church directs against this.

The display of different chalices at the National Shrine did look rather awesome – very befitting His Precious Blood.

Maybe Notre Dame is simply slow in implementing RS…

 

[Crusader]

Panis Angelicas:

Ever try visiting ebay and searching under “Catholic” or “chalice” ? Sadly some lucky Wiccan is probably sacrificing to the gods with chalices once used to contain the Precious Blood…
The glass chalices won’t last.
They’ll chip, crack, get scratches, and have to be discarded.
Then, they’ll be looking for something more durable…(Hopefully, not plastic!)

Very doubtful as used chalices on eBay do command high prices, while wiccan-gear is about 1/8 the price of the Catholic gear when new…

 

[Sir_Hubert]

Crusader

I agree with you on the transfer of the Precious Blood. I can’t understand why our priest have trouble with this. It’s clear that the Precious Blood is not to be transfered from vessel to vessel as stated in both the new GIRM and RS. If the Precious Blood is to be offered, chalices are to be filled with wine and water ***before the concecration. ***

The parish that I attend still does this even after bringing it to the Pastors attention. This is just one of the many “abuses” that happens.

One has to wonder; are many of our priests uneducated on the teachings from the Vatican, or are they just being defiant? Either way, it’s not good. Let us remember them in our prayers, and help in any way that we can.

In His Peace.

 

[kmmd]

I can’t find the exact reference right now but some bishops, I know Bishop Clark and Cardinal Mahoney, think that pouring the precious blood from “one cup to many” is a more complete symbol of the sharing of one cup. Cardinal Mahoney (I am quite sure it was him) published something in his diocese recently saying that the rule was not to change there. When Cardinal Mahoney published “Gather Faithfully together” his vision of what Mass should look like, the Liturgy folks in this diocese treated it like a new gospel. Not so with documents from Rome…I have been told that they are not the law in the Diocese of Rochester until they have been promulgated by the Bishop. Never a peep from the ambo about any of those published in the last 10 years. We do what we like and the Bishop applauds our “vibrant liturgies”

May Lord have mercy on us.

 

[Crusader]

kmmd:

I can’t find the exact reference right now but some bishops, I know Bishop Clark and Cardinal Mahoney, think that pouring the precious blood from “one cup to many” is a more complete symbol of the sharing of one cup. Cardinal Mahoney (I am quite sure it was him) published something in his diocese recently saying that the rule was not to change there. When Cardinal Mahoney published “Gather Faithfully together” his vision of what Mass should look like, the Liturgy folks in this diocese treated it like a new gospel. Not so with documents from Rome…I have been told that they are not the law in the Diocese of Rochester until they have been promulgated by the Bishop. Never a peep from the ambo about any of those published in the last 10 years. We do what we like and the Bishop applauds our “vibrant liturgies”

May Lord have mercy on us.

Sadly, it’s not up to Cardinal Mahony, it’s up to the Church. His dissent from the Church directive on this matter was documented in the Tidings: the-tidings.com/2004/0910/liturgy.htm

"Some have inquired about the continued use of specially designed carafes in which the wine is presented at the Preparation of the Gifts, placed upon the altar, consecrated during the Eucharistic Prayer, and then distributed into smaller chalices for Holy Communion. Our overwhelming experience with this practice over the years has been most positive.

Because our practice has become an Archdiocesan custom of over seven years, with both the Catholic faithful and the ministers accustomed to this practice, I am willing to grant exceptions to no. 106 of Redemptionis Sacramentum for legitimate reasons, such as the following: where the altar table is too small to accommodate many chalices, thus creating a greater danger for spillage; and where the number of chalices is so large that they would visibly detract from the important sign of One Bread and One Cup, as well as increase the danger of tipping over the chalices."

The best answer I have ever seen on this issue was released by the USCCB. It’s worth a look: usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/chalice.shtml See how it compares to Cardinal Mahony’s position shown above.

I used to get angry at antics such as this. I wondered why the Vatican didn’t intervene. Now my viewpoint has changed.

Now actions such as this one by Cardinal Mahony give me the creeps. It’s certain he knows it’s not his decision to make, yet he disobeys the Church anyway. A Cardinal of the Church who is driven by pride and arrogance. That truly is creepy (and just a bit scary) and it does beg the question about what role Satan is playing in the Cardinal’s decision…

One can only pray that Cardinal Mahony’s eventual successor is a man that’s true to his vows. Someone who is obedient to the Archbishop of Rome.

Finally, the altar is Cardinal Mahony’s cathedral is 10’x15’, or 150 square feet. About the same square footage of a small bedroom. When would the “altar table” ever be too small in this case to hold the chalices? Utter hubris…

 

[Minerva]

they’re using glass at Notre Dame? This must be a very recent development. I graduated in 2003 and never saw anything but a gold chalice used at the Basilica. They have plenty of them and plenty of money to get new ones if they need to. As for distributing the blood among several vessels, I don’t remember - I wasn’t aware that this is an abuse so I didn’t notice it at ND. Although the homilies at the Basilica were incredibly banal, the Mass was done reverently otherwise with no abuses AFAIK.

 

[kidderdoc]

Ray Marshall:

I also wonder. Especially when you figure there must be many chalices in storage. Glass just showed up recently. What happened to all the gold chalices.

(Tongue in cheek)…maybe some of them made a golden calf!

 

[amasimp]

Crusader:

Sadly, it’s not up to Cardinal Mahony, it’s up to the Church. His dissent from the Church directive on this matter was documented in the Tidings: the-tidings.com/2004/0910/liturgy.htm

"Some have inquired about the continued use of specially designed carafes in which the wine is presented at the Preparation of the Gifts, placed upon the altar, consecrated during the Eucharistic Prayer, and then distributed into smaller chalices for Holy Communion. Our overwhelming experience with this practice over the years has been most positive.

Because our practice has become an Archdiocesan custom of over seven years, with both the Catholic faithful and the ministers accustomed to this practice, I am willing to grant exceptions to no. 106 of Redemptionis Sacramentum for legitimate reasons, such as the following: where the altar table is too small to accommodate many chalices, thus creating a greater danger for spillage; and where the number of chalices is so large that they would visibly detract from the important sign of One Bread and One Cup, as well as increase the danger of tipping over the chalices."

The best answer I have ever seen on this issue was released by the USCCB. It’s worth a look: usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/chalice.shtml See how it compares to Cardinal Mahony’s position shown above.

I used to get angry at antics such as this. I wondered why the Vatican didn’t intervene. Now my viewpoint has changed.

Now actions such as this one by Cardinal Mahony give me the creeps. It’s certain he knows it’s not his decision to make, yet he disobeys the Church anyway. A Cardinal of the Church who is driven by pride and arrogance. That truly is creepy (and just a bit scary) and it does beg the question about what role Satan is playing in the Cardinal’s decision…

One can only pray that Cardinal Mahony’s eventual successor is a man that’s true to his vows. Someone who is obedient to the Archbishop of Rome.

Finally, the altar is Cardinal Mahony’s cathedral is 10’x15’, or 150 square feet. About the same square footage of a small bedroom. When would the “altar table” ever be too small in this case to hold the chalices? Utter hubris…

I’m prety sure the Cardinal has requested an indult to be exempt on this matter and that he is allowing to the practice to continue while the issue is being reviewed.

 

[Crusader]

amasimp:

I’m prety sure the Cardinal has requested an indult to be exempt on this matter and that he is allowing to the practice to continue while the issue is being reviewed.

That is not true.

An indult was requested by the USCCB to pour the Precious Blood and it was formally denied by the Congregation for Divine Worship.

Here is the definitive reference a second time:

usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/chalice.shtml

 

[deaconswife]

Crusader:

I
One wonders why some comply with the Church while others do not…

It could be that in the diocese the Mass was celebrated the date for implementation had not yet passed. In my diocese, when RS was issssued our bishop was out of the country. In fact, he was in Rome for his ad limina visit, so we had to wait for him to return to review and study the document and set a date for its implementation in the diocese. The date for implementation is today.

 

[Crusader]

deaconswife:

It could be that in the diocese the Mass was celebrated the date for implementation had not yet passed. In my diocese, when RS was issssued our bishop was out of the country. In fact, he was in Rome for his ad limina visit, so we had to wait for him to return to review and study the document and set a date for its implementation in the diocese. The date for implementation is today.

I think that’s true in some cases. In others (such as Cardinal Mahony’s case described above, sometimes they simply choose not to follow the Church.)

 

[Mysty101]

OK–just remember one thing Pouring the Precious Blood was an approved procedure—It is not some off the wall abuse. USCCB has asked for a review. True a change has been denied for now, but I wouldn’t bet the ranch that this is over.

When the norm for Communion posture in the US was changed to standing, Rome was petitioned until kneeling was allowed. I don’t agree with either senario, but the similarity is something to ponder.

SuZ

 

[John_of_Woking]

Crusader:

Very doubtful as used chalices on eBay do command high prices, while wiccan-gear is about 1/8 the price of the Catholic gear when new…

Sadly big businesses are into wicca. Money is not an issue for those intent on sacrilege

 

[Brendan]

Mysty101:

OK–just remember one thing Pouring the Precious Blood was an approved procedure—It is not some off the wall abuse. USCCB has asked for a review. True a change has been denied for now, but I wouldn’t bet the ranch that this is over.

When the norm for Communion posture in the US was changed to standing, Rome was petitioned until kneeling was allowed. I don’t agree with either senario, but the similarity is something to ponder.

SuZ

Mysty,

There are a lot of differences. With the posture after Communion, Cardinal George of Chicago sent a dubiim, or request for more information to the Vatican. He asked if the Vatican intended to prohibit kneeling after Communion.

The Vatican responded that it did not, in fact, desire to prohibit kneeling after Communion only to allow standing as an option, and specifically stated that the “pious custom of kneeling should be laudably retained”

With the fractioning of the Blessed Sacrament, a dubium was issues and the Vatican responeded that fractioning was, in fact, now prohibited.

The USCCB requested an indult to continue the practice and that was denied.

The USCCB issued another request saying that the custom of fractioning had the force of particular law (doubtful) and that Liturgical Instructions do not outweigh particular law.

This logic fails on 2 points.

1 - that a custom has the force of particular law.
2. That having the ‘force of particular law’ means that it is, in fact, a particular law.

The USCCB is currently waiting on the Vatican to decide this matter.

 

[Crusader]

Mysty101:

OK–just remember one thing Pouring the Precious Blood was an approved procedure—It is not some off the wall abuse. USCCB has asked for a review. True a change has been denied for now, but I wouldn’t bet the ranch that this is over.

When the norm for Communion posture in the US was changed to standing, Rome was petitioned until kneeling was allowed. I don’t agree with either senario, but the similarity is something to ponder.

SuZ

The Church is extremely clear on this matter:

usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/chalice.shtml

Sometimes I think red herrings are propogated as nothing more than an attempt to produce semi-plausible deniability…

 

[Crusader]

This issue about pouring the Precious Blood is a concrete example of some bishops/priests choosing not to follow the Church.

The Church has made it extremely clear that pouring the Precious Blood is no longer acceptable. It were just as clear in rejecting a USCCB request for an indult.

Yet some in the Church still feel the need to discount what the Church directs in favor of their own egos.

When I see this, I do wonder what role Satan plays in influencing the dissidents…

 

[Mysty101]

Crusader:

The Church is extremely clear on this matter:

usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/chalice.shtml

Sometimes I think red herrings are propogated as nothing more than an attempt to produce semi-plausible deniability…

If you remember I was the one who originally posted that link in the other thread in response to you.

I am trying to see all sides of the picture. I will follow the norm, regardless of my personal preference, or what is “allowed.”

SuZ
“Those deceive themselves who believe that union with God consists in ecstasies or raptures, and in enjoyment of Him. For it consists in nothing except the surrender and subjection of our will.” St Teresa