Pouring Wine into the Chalice

[kxaddiso]

Hi all

When the Altar is being prepared, can anyone other than a priest or deacon pour the wine into the chalice. I was at the Feast of the Assumption mass, and an Altar server poured the wine into the Chalice. This was a Senior Altar server.

Is this allowed. On looking this up in James Akin’s book “Mass Confustion” it specifically states that the rubrics say “The deacon (or priest) pours wine and a little water into the chalice…”

This seems odd, and has never happened in our parish before.

Thanks for your comments

Kim

 

[Crusader]

kxaddiso:

Hi all

When the Altar is being prepared, can anyone other than a priest or deacon pour the wine into the chalice. I was at the Feast of the Assumption mass, and an Altar server poured the wine into the Chalice. This was a Senior Altar server.

Is this allowed. On looking this up in James Akin’s book “Mass Confustion” it specifically states that the rubrics say “The deacon (or priest) pours wine and a little water into the chalice…”

This seems odd, and has never happened in our parish before.

Thanks for your comments

Kim

This function is limited to the celebrant or deacon. Once the wine and bread have been consecrated, even a priest is no longer able to distribute it between vessels – this has to take place before the consecration.

For what it’s worth there is no title in the Church of “Senior Altar server”, although some parishes (and dioceses) have made-up functions and titles.

 

[kxaddiso]

Hi Crusader,

Thanks for the comments,

Would this be a liturgical abuse?

Regards

 

[GeorgeCooney]

I do not know the rubrics, if there are any, controlling the pouring of unconsecrated wine into the chalice, but let me tell you what used to be done in the St. Pius V (traditional) Mass.

The altar boys(s) carried the cruets of wine and water, handles forward, to the side of the altar and the priest takes each one in turn to pour into the chalice. This is before the Consecration. After Communion, the altar boys present the cruets once again at the side of the altar, but this time they hold the cruets by the handles. When the priest holds the chalice toward the altar boy, the altar boy pours in wine until the priest raises the chalice indicating that is enough. The priest will consume this wine, then presents the chalice again with his thumbs and forefingers over the lip. The altar boys will pour a little wine, and then a generous portion of water over the priests thumbs and forefingers to wash away any remnants of the Sacred Species.

From my experience, I would say that only the priest or a full deacon may pour the wine and water before the Consecration

 

[Crusader]

kxaddiso:

Hi Crusader,

Thanks for the comments,

Would this be a liturgical abuse?

Regards

This instruction is not in the GIRM, but in Redemptoris Sacramentum:

“#106. However, the pouring of the Blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided, lest anything should happen that would be to the detriment of so great a mystery. Never to be used for containing the Blood of the Lord are flagons, bowls, or other vessels that are not fully in accord with the established norms.”

Because failing to follow this directive would make the Mass neither illicit or invalid, I’m not so sure I would call it a liturgical abuse. I would label it a liturgical irregularity with horrible possible consequences.

 

[Crusader]

GeorgeCooney:

I do not know the rubrics, if there are any, controlling the pouring of unconsecrated wine into the chalice, but let me tell you what used to be done in the St. Pius V (traditional) Mass.

The altar boys(s) carried the cruets of wine and water, handles forward, to the side of the altar and the priest takes each one in turn to pour into the chalice. This is before the Consecration. After Communion, the altar boys present the cruets once again at the side of the altar, but this time they hold the cruets by the handles. When the priest holds the chalice toward the altar boy, the altar boy pours in wine until the priest raises the chalice indicating that is enough. The priest will consume this wine, then presents the chalice again with his thumbs and forefingers over the lip. The altar boys will pour a little wine, and then a generous portion of water over the priests thumbs and forefingers to wash away any remnants of the Sacred Species.

From my experience, I would say that only the priest or a full deacon may pour the wine and water before the Consecration

Pouring of the unconsecrated wine is not done by laypersons. That’s already been established. I find your note fascinating however.

The celebrant you describe was purifying the sacred vessel and his fingers mainly with unconsecrated wine – a most acceptable procedure.

Today it’s very uncommon for even an ablution cup (“finger bowl”) to be placed on the side of the altar for the celebrant’s use.

Then again with the number of EMHC’s that touch the Most Blessed Sacrament during Mass at my parish, would would need a porta-sink on wheels.

Tragic…

 

[Servant1]

GeorgeCooney:

From my experience, I would say that only the priest or a full deacon may pour the wine and water before the Consecration

I’m a new user here… may I seek a little help/definition?

What is a “full” deacon? I know of the office of deacon and its ancient history going back to St Stephen, but what is a “full” deacon? I may not be understanding your wording completely, but it seems to imply that there is also a deacon that is less than a “full” deacon.

Thanks!

Pax Christi!

 

[Ham1]

Servant1:

I’m a new user here… may I seek a little help/definition?

What is a “full” deacon? I know of the office of deacon and its ancient history going back to St Stephen, but what is a “full” deacon? I may not be understanding your wording completely, but it seems to imply that there is also a deacon that is less than a “full” deacon.

Thanks!

Pax Christi!

Perhaps he is referring to a permanent deacon as opposed to a seminarian who is ordained a deacon approximately 1 year before being ordained to the priesthood. Although, in the context above that would not make too much sense because a newly ordained deacon (soon to be a priest) is certainly able to act fully as a deacon within the mass.

Just a guess. I’ve never heard the term “full deacon.”

 

[Crusader]

Servant1:

I’m a new user here… may I seek a little help/definition?

What is a “full” deacon? I know of the office of deacon and its ancient history going back to St Stephen, but what is a “full” deacon? I may not be understanding your wording completely, but it seems to imply that there is also a deacon that is less than a “full” deacon.

Thanks!

Pax Christi!

He might be referring to subdeacons. As a minor order they were supressed as a result of Vatican II, but either a priest or “full” deacon may assume the duties of a subdeacon at Tridentine Pontifical High Masses.

 

[Reyno]

In Redemptionis Sacramentum (on certain matters to be observed or to be avoided regarding the Holy Eucharist) states that it is not allowed to pour wine which is the blood of Christ from one vessel to another after it is consecrated.

 

[mgy100]

Hi all

When the Altar is being prepared, can anyone other than a priest or deacon pour the wine into the chalice. I was at the Feast of the Assumption mass, and an Altar server poured the wine into the Chalice. This was a Senior Altar server.

Is this allowed. On looking this up in James Akin’s book “Mass Confustion” it specifically states that the rubrics say “The deacon (or priest) pours wine and a little water into the chalice…”

This seems odd, and has never happened in our parish before.

Thanks for your comments

Kim

No the priest does this. The altarboy hands him the cruet though. IT may have been a simple mistake by an altarboy who was new. Perhaps Father gave him a talk after Mass about this.
The only time an altarboy pours anything is water at the washing of the priests hands.

 

[Greg72]

Hi all

When the Altar is being prepared, can anyone other than a priest or deacon pour the wine into the chalice. I was at the Feast of the Assumption mass, and an Altar server poured the wine into the Chalice. This was a Senior Altar server.

Is this allowed. On looking this up in James Akin’s book “Mass Confustion” it specifically states that the rubrics say “The deacon (or priest) pours wine and a little water into the chalice…”

This seems odd, and has never happened in our parish before.

It is odd, but I’ve done it as a server myself. I’m unsure of the cirumstances at the Mass you attended, but for me it was as follows -

When I presented the Priest with the wine, he didn’t take it and continued to hold the Chalice with both hands. After a few seconds he asked me to please pour the wine, which I did.

Afterwards, I learned that the Priest’s arthritis had flared up and he didn’t feel strong enough to handle the Chalice as he normally would.

Whether or not it’s allowed, it was done. I’m generally a stickler for the rules, but in this case it didn’t trouble me much since my duty was to assist the Priest and I was also helping (a very important) someone in need.

 

[John_Lilburne]

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :

“142. After this, as the minister presents the cruets, the priest stands at the side of the altar and pours wine and a little water into the chalice, saying quietly, Per huius aquae (By the mystery of this water). …”. (From Mass Without a Deacon)

“178. After the Prayer of the Faithful, while the priest remains at the chair, the deacon prepares the altar, assisted by the acolyte, but it is the deacon’s place to take care of the sacred vessels himself. He also assists the priest in receiving the people’s gifts. Next, he hands the priest the paten with the bread to be consecrated, pours wine and a little water into the chalice, saying quietly, *Per huius aquae *(By the mystery of this water), and after this presents the chalice to the priest. He may also carry out the preparation of the chalice at the credence table.”

The rubrics in the Roman Missal’s Order of Mass also make it clear that the priest or deacon pours the water and wine:
“The deacon (or the priest) pours the wine and a little water into the chalice, saying inaudibly:
By the mystery …” (Roman Missal, Catholic Book Publishing Co., New York, 1985, page 370).

The same instructions are found in Latin in Missale Romanum, Libreria Editrice Vaticana, 2002, ISBN: 8820972719, page 514.

 

[BenedictMary]

He might be referring to subdeacons. As a minor order they were supressed as a result of Vatican II, but either a priest or “full” deacon may assume the duties of a subdeacon at Tridentine Pontifical High Masses.

A deacon and subdeacon assist the priest at a Solem High Mass (High Mass/Solemn Mass). A Pontifical High Mass is celebrated with a bishop as celebrant, deacon and subdeacon, two assistant deacons at the throne and 4 chaplains to the bishop. ie mitre bearer, crosier bearer, bugia bearer and book bearer.