Poverty and it's answers

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Poverty is here apparently to stay. There is a lot of back and forth on this forum as to how we as a people/country/Catholic should approach this problem. We have a welfare system that is flawed but it still helps millions I will not argue the merit of those being worse off morally because they take charity-I seek real answers to a huge problem.

Will if we end welfare social security and the like do a better job as some here suggest?

I ask because I was an innocent “victim” of welfare if you want to call it that. My dad got sick early 1960’s and could no longer work. My mom was raising 4 kids. I remember trips to St Joseph’s rectory where she’d get a few dollars, never more then 10 as I can recall and no where close enough to pay or $42 a month rent (yeah believe it lol) I do remember hunger and days without any food. the feeling of wearing the same clothes and being put down was tough at that age as kids can be cruel. Anyway, when we got on welfare, we paid our rent and we got gov food like cheese and peanut butter and while we did not live well, we had a roof and we ate. I am grateful to FDR and LBJ who pushed these programs. All the kids did well and went on to jobs in human service helping others. One brother died young but the other three lived the "dream’

Sadly I got hurt bad in an auto accident and can no longer work. now on SSD i live ok no complaints but have to wonder what would be without these programs? I mean yeah I’d be worried about disability and retirement but at the wages I got, cannot see me putting anywhere enough away to help in those area’s.

I am anti abortion and like the idea of less gov but cannot in faith be a Republican or liberterian as I see nothing in their “plank” that seems to be helpful to the poor or disabled or old.

Please I’m not trying to take sides on the welfare issue-Just trully want to know the vision of a country without social programs-or do we keep some and get rid of others?

all I’ve seen thus far for the most part here is a divide with no real answer to this question. So in a nutshell, what is the vision of America for it’s poor.

Please as exact as possible rather then platitudes without answers.

Thanks I really need to know maybe i’ll switch sides if a program of private charity can really be laid out.

Thnaks

Glen
 
Hi Glen,

This might not be what you are looking for, but in a nutshell, there is no solution, at least not in the USA. Notice that USA politics are largely centered on “foreign” interests and issues, as if our country is obliged to other countries more than it is to it’s citizens. We have the worst healthcare system in the developed world, we have more people struggling from the effects of the economy than anywhere in the world. What is worse, is that “this is America” the global super power. Bottom line, neither Republicans nor Democrats will fix anything.

In any country, the poor and the struggling are sadly forgotten and if they receive any attention, it is always “third world” treatment.
 
LumenGent said:
Hi Glen,

This might not be what you are looking for, but in a nutshell, there is no solution, at least not in the USA. Notice that USA politics are largely centered on “foreign” interests and issues, as if our country is obliged to other countries more than it is to it’s citizens.
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Forty-three percent of our budget (in 2007 or 2010) went to Medi-care, Medi-Caid, and Social Security, which includes Disability. Something like 1.5% goes to foreign aid.

And it is the federal government’s job to take care of our relatiins with other nations, so it’s not surprising that that is an important part of our national politics.*
We have the worst healthcare system in the developed world,
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According to criteria which are biased against our system and for socialized systems! But we have the most medical advances, which are used in other parts of the world. We resucitate early prematurely born babies and sometimes they don’t make it, but in other countries they just list them as stillborn, so on our statistics the babies are considered part of infant mortality when in other nations that’s not where they are listed.

It is true that 15% of our people (in 2008) were uninsured, but that did not mean they went without medical care or that they were devastated by medical bills. Many were young healthy people just starting out who were not offered health care and couldn’t afford private insurance; others were rich enough not to worry about it (Rush Limbaugh mentions this about himself). Still others were eligible for state aid but had not applied.*

Some people fall through the cracks, but in terms of medical care, we do have better outcomes for people who get sick than in other nations.
we have more people struggling from the effects of the economy than anywhere in the world.
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Every couple of weeks I see a headline that Europe is just days away from utter collapse. Guess what? they have spent all their money on welfare… and when the collapse comes, those people will be in much worse shape than people here.

Some Eurpean nations already have much higher unemployment than we do: Spain for example is at 20%.
What is worse, is that “this is America” the global super power. Bottom line, neither Republicans nor Democrats will fix anything.
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Well, I’ll agree with you on that!
In any country, the poor and the struggling are sadly forgotten and if they receive any attention, it is always “third world” treatment.
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Most of the poor in the US are cared for: they have adequate food,clothing, housing, etc. It is true that they may not have the latest gadgets, but they are not destitute the way people are in third world nations, where there are families living in the garbage dumps looking through the trash for food and clothing.
 
A healthy economy that creates jobs is best for everyone.

Men are men, they stand up for what is right, do not walk away from their wives and children - they work and support those families. People do not turn their back on God, they have a church home who is an extended family in times of need.

The good economy has jobs where families can actually live on one income.

Christians start acting like Christians and help their family, extended family and fellow parishioners. They help widows and orphans and those who are actually too disabled to work.

It all comes down to strong families, strong Christians and a strong business booming kinda economy.

Oh, and the most generous people I know on this planet happen to be “evil republicans”.
 
Thanks costello but you did not answer the question but posed platitudes about how we should help each other

Try and really answer if you can-I am not trying to cause a riff. I really have not heard a direct clear answer to how we will help the poor. Jobs is nice but we had poor in good times.

I will not debate the jobs maker issue as it is clear the wealth is there but not the will to make jobs. Banks and companies have record profits but still no jobs. Ok lets say we end all EPA rules allow coal to be burned or whatever it is they want to make jobs, then jobs are made ok then what? We depend on local help? Will local communities really have the resource to help high rent?

Same with the tax, say we allow the wealthy to keep all their earnings for the next 4 years-Will they then take care of our poor?

Please someone tell me who will hear the cry of the poor? Please, please, please, no more platitudes or 'just give em a job" I know that would help a lot of folk but what about the chronic poor? Those millions with illness, ,mental or otherwise who for whtever reason cannot work? What can we do if not as a collective through Welfare Social security etc?

Please search for your thoughts on this as a REAL program not wishful thinking. thanks

i know as Catholics we all care deep to out core for those less fortunate as well as it being a mandate of our Lord Jesus Christ

Glen
 
Thanks Butcher but it would be nice if you can offer a real solution

I do believe the poor are blessed and will inherit the Kingdom but it can be hell here on earth

Glen
 
Glen,

Poverty as unfortunate as it is, will always be a part of society. To fix it equires more than a philosophical answer which serves no other purpose than to uphold the status quo. Whilst it is true that God did not seek equality in the natural order, he certainly did create us all equal in dignity. That is what the Church has always taught. Our job is to ensure that the dignity that God has given to all people is upheld at all costs. Sadly, economics and poltics do not look upon the poor and disabled as the Church does and this is where the problem exists.

The most fundamental principle, is that the state must work for the common good and in the best interests of it’s citizens. The State ought to be focused on exapnding the existing infrastructure, promoting free education (or at least low fees), funding more and more into the resource sector etc. It does no good when many companies are heading off shore because of cheaper costs, and this is where the state has an obligation to protect the rights of the citizens. In an age where almost everybody is well educated, the state has an obligation to create matching jobs for the increasing demands. We don’t need a situation where 1000 people are applying for the same job. I would rather a stable-good economy where all citizens are benefiting and contributing to it’s growth, than a strong and economy where only half of the population benefits and expands it.

Now, we come to the inalienable rights and basic needs of every person, and once again, the USA is by far behind. We ought to look to countries like Australia or Canada where universal healthcare is offered and pharmaceuticals are government subsidized. In Australia, it doesn’t matter if you are Bill Gates or Mother Theresa, everyone has access to free medical care. The private health sector is also much better than what it is over here and the costs are much more affordable. I think there is also a system where low income earners have access to free legal services.

Finally, the disabled who can’t work must rely on the state for economic sustainability. They have a right to be taken care of by the state, not totally disregarded.The Social security system was created for that purpose, however, it is highly unregulated and needs a lot of fine tuning.

For a country like the USA, the current system is absolutely disgraceful. The rich are getting wealthier and the poor are getting poorer. All this suggests is that the system in place is designed to benefit some and disregard others.
 
Castello said:
Sit down and give the Church a read -

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

Scripture says if a man will not work he shall not eat. Scripture tells us to care for widows and orphans. Scripture tells us to give food, water and clothing to those who need it.

Pretty simple. Jobs. People work so they can eat.
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**

:gopray:Sadly, unemployment is rampant, so people looking for work cannot always find it and thanks to the Banksters, countless homes are foreclosed upon and people formerly working go homeless. Food pantries go bare, and each night, tens of thousands of children across our country go hungry. 😊

Yes, Christians must take literally the responsibility of feeding widows, orphans and those who are hungry and thirsty. Glen is right when he said that poverty can be like hell on earth to those experiencing it. :gopray2:

If one does not believe in government programs to help the poor, and does not believe that every person should have access to affordable health care and decent housing, then it will be up to Christ’s followers to fill in the huge gaps. This is a very sobering enterprise, as we are now at near - Depression levels of hunger and rising homelessness. :gopray:

My heart goes out to people living day to day and not knowing where they will sleep or where their next meal will come from. One of the best ways I’ve found is to support the local shelters, many who help people transition from homelessness to finding jobs and living independently. Catholic parishes can find such places in every city and lend a hand. There may be no one answer to all these questions except that of active compassion, and Christ showed us His path, each of us seeing Christ in the face of every person who is hungry, thirsty, imprisoned or ill. When we learn to see Christ in disguise in everyone we meet, we will be on the right path.**
:highprayer::angel1:
 
I have no answer to poverty. I can only mention some things that have worked to alleviate it in my own locality.

Here, the diocese operates a food kitchen–really a restaurant, with a restaurant license–which provides one free meal a day to all comers, no questions asked. Families come with their children. It is operated with a couple of paid employees by the diocese and over 6,000 volunteers.

For medical care, there are in town at least two free or pay-what-you-can medical clinics, one of which is under Catholic auspices and staffed by medical professionals who volunteer their time.

I think that a lot more physicians would volunteer their time except some are afraid of malpractice suits. A friend asked a specialist once about this. He makes a yearly trip to Latin America to do specialty medical work for the poor. He was asked why he did it for those in Latin America but not for those in this town. He said “because my patients in Latin America won’t sue me.”
 
Castello said:
Sit down and give the Church a read -

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/justpeace/documents/rc_pc_justpeace_doc_20060526_compendio-dott-soc_en.html

Scripture says if a man will not work he shall not eat. Scripture tells us to care for widows and orphans. Scripture tells us to give food, water and clothing to those who need it.

Pretty simple. Jobs. People work so they can eat.
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You reference Church teaching and then go on to spout the Protestant Work Ethic which is not Catholic Social Teaching.

You are simply seeking to forward opinions and ideals held by the Republican Party of the US. It’s pretty transparent and has nothing to do with Catholic Social Teaching.
 
The Church has a long list of very good encyclicals outlining its social teachings.

There is nothing in Church social teachings, however, which requires national bankruptcy, and that is what we are faced with. The collapse of the nations debt bubble will not benefit the poor.
 
JimG said:
The Church has a long list of very good encyclicals outlining its social teachings.

There is nothing in Church social teachings, however, which requires national bankruptcy, and that is what we are faced with. The collapse of the nations debt bubble will not benefit the poor.
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There is also no reference to only helping the “worthy” poor in Catholic Social Teaching.

The tenets of trickle down economics are not escoused by the Church either.
 
ringil said:
There is also no reference to only helping the “worthy” poor in Catholic Social Teaching.

The tenets of trickle down economics not escoused by the Church either.
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The poor should get all the help possible. I think it’s possible to provide more help at the local level than through a national bureaucracy, but whatever works is fine with me. What won’t work, from a national standpoint, is for the federal government to spend $4 billion more than it takes in every single day. That leads to disaster for the poor. The rich will somehow survive.
 
Castello said:
A healthy economy that creates jobs is best for everyone.

Men are men, they stand up for what is right, do not walk away from their wives and children - they work and support those families. People do not turn their back on God, they have a church home who is an extended family in times of need.

The good economy has jobs where families can actually live on one income.

Christians start acting like Christians and help their family, extended family and fellow parishioners. They help widows and orphans and those who are actually too disabled to work.

It all comes down to strong families, strong Christians and a strong business booming kinda economy.

Oh, and the most generous people I know on this planet happen to be “evil republicans”.
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I believe Japan has a slightly lower rate of poverty than the US despite a decade of economic stagnation and secular society (about 70% of the people do not adhere to any religion.)

Also, if you look at the numbers, I think you will find that poverty trends don’t fit your model:
stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?QueryId=9909&QueryType=View
 
ringil said:
You reference Church teaching and then go on to spout the Protestant Work Ethic which is not Catholic Social Teaching.

You are simply seeking to forward opinions and ideals held by the Republican Party of the US. It’s pretty transparent and has nothing to do with Catholic Social Teaching.
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Ummmm… I “spouted” Sacred Scripture.
 
Thank you all for interesting points of view.

Castello you are of course welcome with a sort of view while I do not support seems acommon view in many threads

I think your point is valid as animals will eat the runts of a litter to 'thin" the herd. trees need pruning to allow for the best growth and Darwin supported the theory of the strong surviving as did many in the 'Eugenics" field of the 20’s and 30’s. They had science on their side because we may indeed wean a master race if we eliminate bad traits like drug addiction, laziness, mental illness etc.

I feel deep inside we are viewed a society by how we treat as Jesus said, “the lest”

But you do make a strong point-let them starve as it is their choice!

Glen
 
Jim

Thanks for responding to my thread. You say the poor can be better handled and a “local” level. What do you mean exactly?

Should States be responsible? or do you mean private agency’s or Church"s. If private and or church, how exactly will they be funded? Well not exactly but at least a fair guess would do.

I can see it now (just a point of levity not serious here lol) “This housing unit brought to you by the real thing-Coca Cola!” Or people wearing clothing with the donor’s name on it. “Bank Of America jeans!”

The food stamps could be vouchers for Big Macs or Starbucks coffee. Sadly the Church has not up to now anyway, been able to put a real dent in poverty so I guess the Church could recieve vouchers ALA Bush’s plan of “Faith based inititives”

Anyway, kidding aside, do you favor vouchers for private charity or church’s after all it will still be tax based in the end.

I dunno I’m kinda being funny but there is a thread of reality that I for one can just not see it working well at the local level unless the FED lets go some money

Thanks again and I look forward to details

Glen
 
LumenGent #7
In Australia, it doesn’t matter if you are Bill Gates or Mother Theresa, everyone has access to free medical care
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This is limited., and is obviously wasteful when applied to the well-off as well as the needy, which is precisely why Bl John Paul II condemned the Welfare State.
Ringil #11
to spout the Protestant Work Ethic which is not Catholic Social Teaching.
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The virtue of work, gleaned from St Paul and the esteem in which Jesus held work, were “evident in the sixth century by St Benedict, who wrote in his famous rule: ‘Idleness is the enemy of the soul. Therefore the brothers should have specified periods for manual labour as well as prayerful reading’…” (Rodney Stark, The Victory of Reason, Random House, 2005, p 62). It is very much Catholic teaching, therefore, as based on faith and reason.

The Catholic tradition is to encourage formation in skills and the virtue of work while helping a society to help themselves as Fr James V Schall, S.J., in Does Catholicism Still Exist?, Alba House 1994, p 184-185, explains:
“Since the Catholic Church wants poverty confronted, since She wants this confrontation to be done justly and with the interest and cooperation of the workers and the poor, She has had to acknowledge, as did the socialist systems themselves, that there are certain ways that must be employed if mankind is to meet its economic problems. These ways can be known and imitated, but they must include a juridical system, profit, enterprise, knowledge, exchange, a market, voluntary organisations, a relatively independent economy, private property, and respect for work and excellence.”

The reality from Bl John Paul II in Centesimus Annus, 1991:
#48. “Another task of the State is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the State but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society. The State could not directly ensure the right to work for all its citizens unless it controlled every aspect of economic life and restricted the free initiative of individuals. This does not mean, however, that the State has no competence in this domain, as was claimed by those who argued against any rules in the economic sphere. Rather, the State has a duty to sustain business activities by creating conditions which will ensure job opportunities, by stimulating those activities where they are lacking or by supporting them in moments of crisis.

“In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of State, the so-called “Welfare State”. This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the “Social Assistance State”. Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.”

It is Welfare Statism which has contributed to the European debacle, and deficit spending over decades which has contributed to the meltdown in the U.S.A.
 
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