Poverty and it's answers

[theswan]

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

I am now sure if you include a solution to help the poor as this was the thought behind the thread I started.

Is it your plan to make jobs available to the poor by a good economy sans a welfare state?

I mean if we would end welfare would that fix the economy? And now that lets say it is fixed, will there be jobs for all?

Mostly I am concerned about the chronic poor, the old and sick, disabled the ones who will not be able to fill the jobs made by ending welfare do you have a suggestion?

Is it the church who will fill this? or will it be private concerns and if so, please let me know if this is really do-able?

thanks again, I agree we should let a man have his dignity, hold his head high etc and practice that big word you took from an encyclical (subsid…never mind I guess I need a dictonary)

Please know I am not trying to be sacarstic, I like less gov anti abortion plank but have a concern for the poor first hand

Thanks

 

[JimG]

Jim

Thanks for responding to my thread. You say the poor can be better handled and a “local” level. What do you mean exactly?

Should States be responsible? or do you mean private agency’s or Church"s. If private and or church, how exactly will they be funded? Well not exactly but at least a fair guess would do.

I can see it now (just a point of levity not serious here lol) “This housing unit brought to you by the real thing-Coca Cola!” Or people wearing clothing with the donor’s name on it. “Bank Of America jeans!”

The food stamps could be vouchers for Big Macs or Starbucks coffee. Sadly the Church has not up to now anyway, been able to put a real dent in poverty so I guess the Church could recieve vouchers ALA Bush’s plan of “Faith based inititives”

Anyway, kidding aside, do you favor vouchers for private charity or church’s after all it will still be tax based in the end.

I dunno I’m kinda being funny but there is a thread of reality that I for one can just not see it working well at the local level unless the FED lets go some money

Thanks again and I look forward to details

Glen

I’m no expert on such matters; I can’t provide a complete solution to poverty, but I mean things like local food pantries, local St. Vincent de Paul Societies, the many helping groups operating under local Catholic Charities auspices, reduced fee or free medical medical clinics, local senior services, and a whole host of other local organizations too numerous to mention.

I checked the local diocesan website and other sites for local help organizations, and listed just a few of them below. Most of these organizations use volunteers and support from local donations. Just looking at our parish stewardship forms I am amazed at the variety of services offered which would fall under the heading of social justice for the poor. There is even a local parish organization whose mission it is to visit prisoners.

The more I learn about these parish and diocesan organizations, the more surprised I am at how well they work and with what little bureaucracy. I mentioned in a previous post about our local Diner which provides a free meal every day of the year to all comers. You don’t have to file paperwork to prove poverty; there are no embarrassing questions. Having been a government employee, I know that a government operated or government regulated operation could never work so efficiently.

It’s not as though localities are helpless. We can help one another. We don’t require help to be routed through a huge bureaucracy. And if the Federal government goes bankrupt, we will be more dependent than ever on one another.

Here are a few examples:

The Lord’s Diner

Guadalupe Clinic

Grace Med Clinic

Catholic Charities

More Catholic Charities services

St. Vincent de Paul Society

There are many others, operated by other religious groups, by the city, by the county, by the state. Catholic organizations are not the only religious groups providing such help.

 

[Abu]

theswan
I mean if we would end welfare would that fix the economy? And now that lets say it is fixed, will there be jobs for all?
Mostly I am concerned about the chronic poor, the old and sick, disabled the ones who will not be able to fill the jobs made by ending welfare do you have a suggestion?
Is it the church who will fill this? or will it be private concerns and if so, please let me know if this is really do-able?

By knowing what has gone wrong, helps us to avoid repeating the same mistakes.
We distinguish between State intervention and the primary role of government which is to support families in solidarity, and the role of the Church in subsidiarity, and that’s why laws exist to seek and punish those who steal, cheat, swindle, and against monopolies.

In any society, some important fraction of the citizenry is bound to be without income, because of age (too old or too young), disability, illness, or ill fortune. Some will be permanently, some only temporarily, so. A good society will provide care for such persons. Preferably, as the Pope notes, this should be done according to the principle of subsidiarity, with an emphasis on local and “neighborly” assistance, through family, neighbors, churches, unions, fraternal societies, or other associations. JimG’s post #21 is very helpful – aiding the poor is taking place.

So in Centesimus Annus, #49: “Apart from the family, other intermediate communities exercise primary functions and give life to specific networks of solidarity. These develop as real communities of persons and strengthen the social fabric, preventing society from becoming an anonymous and impersonal mass, as unfortunately often happens today. It is in interrelationships on many levels that a person lives, and that society becomes more ‘personalized’.”

Bl John Paul II shows us the way which many are following.
“By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending.

“In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbors to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need.” Centesimus Annus, 1991, 48].

The problems of manufacturing and the exchange rate manipulation especially by China are other major factors for later, as are the distortions by U.S. administrations and the Federal Reserve over 80 years.

 

[theswan]

Thanks Jim

I am well aware of many programs-St Francis assisi on 31st street has a huge effort in helping.

I do wish private industry got more involved as they do spend huge amounts on so many things-even if it is only goodwill or PR, it would be nice if they really rolled up their sleeves and helped with maybe housing.

Housing as you know is the biggest item, a roof over one’s head but at the moment the only real chance at decent housing is HUD. i’m sure it could be managed privately and better if the incentive was there.

I’m glad we can at least realize there is a issue and look at solutions rather then just fighing over who is responsible.

Glen

 

[LumenGent]

This is limited., and is obviously wasteful when applied to the well-off as well as the needy, which is precisely why Bl John Paul II condemned the Welfare State.

This isn’t welfare. Medicare allows people equal access to healthcare which is funded largely by the people through taxation.

 

[Abu]

LumenGent #2
We have the worst healthcare system in the developed world, we have more people struggling from the effects of the economy than anywhere in the world.

Professor Luckey cites facts.
drwilliamluckey.com/index.cfm/2009/6/20/Government-Health-Care
Government “Health Care”
June 20, 2009, Dr. William Luckey
"Firstly, the proper term for what is being discussed is “medical care,” not health care. Health care is the responsibility of each and every person according to his ability to influence events that affect his or her health. This would include eating good foods, getting enough sleep, trying to stay away from dangerous situations if possible, and so forth. But when even doing these things do not work to preserve one’s health, one seeks out medical professionals to aid in returning to health, if possible. So we are really speaking about medical care, not health care.

"Next, the medical care system in the United States is the best in the world. We have the best-trained physicians, nurses and technicians in the world, and we have the most up-to-date medical equipment.

"Thirdly, we have the best medical financing system in the world. We have many medical insurance companies, including one that will insure you for $10 per day, which advertises on television. Our emergency rooms are required by law to take anyone who comes in, and our ambulances are required to take anyone who wants to go. This includes people who have colds, flu, a “boo-boo,” regardless of their ability to pay, and the cost for this is foisted on the paying patients of the hospital, unknown to them. The hospital is not required to cure the nonpaying patient who is seriously ill or injured, but must get them at least to where they are stabilized.

"Fourthly, physicians and hospitals are willing to take payments.

"Fifthly, there is Medicare and Medicaid for the poor.

“This week, both the president and his press secretary stated that there were countries where the people were completely satisfied with a “single payer” (i.e., socialist, government-run) medical system. When the press secretary was asked to name one, he could not. But a study by the Cato Institute has some very interesting data. Patients having to wait for more than four months for non-emergency surgery: Britain, 36%; Canada, 27 %; New Zealand, 26%; Australia, 23%; the United States, 5%. The elderly evaluate their health care way better in the UK than in either Canada or the United States. During a 12-month period, in Ontario, 71 patients died waiting for coronary bypass surgery. The United States also has the lowest hospital stay period compared to the other western socialist countries. Prostate cancer mortality rates among those diagnosed with the disease: UK, 57%; France, 49%; Germany, 44%; Australia, 35%; New Zealand 30%; Canada, 25%; and the United States, only 19%. Remember, this is under the current systems, which, in the US, is a free-market system, but in all the aforementioned other countries is a socialist system.”

Dr. William R. Luckey is Professor of Political Science and Economics at Christendom College and has expertise in Political Philosophy, Business and Economics, and Theology. He is an Adjunct Scholar of the Mises Institute and of the Acton Institute for the Study of Religion and Liberty. Dr. Luckey is also on the advisory board of the Center for Economic Personalism, and is on the Board of Scholars of the Virginia Institute for Public Policy Studies.

 

[Castello]

Thank you all for interesting points of view.

Castello you are of course welcome with a sort of view while I do not support seems acommon view in many threads

I think your point is valid as animals will eat the runts of a litter to 'thin" the herd. trees need pruning to allow for the best growth and Darwin supported the theory of the strong surviving as did many in the 'Eugenics" field of the 20’s and 30’s. They had science on their side because we may indeed wean a master race if we eliminate bad traits like drug addiction, laziness, mental illness etc.

I feel deep inside we are viewed a society by how we treat as Jesus said, “the lest”

But you do make a strong point-let them starve as it is their choice!

Glen

I ask that you apologize. I am not an eugenicist and have done nothing more than speak of Scripture and Church teaching.

 

[Abu]

An interesting example of an answer to increasing wealth is the following, in which government can help or hinder. The uniqueness of American property laws seems to favour such developments.

The Marcellus Shale Boom
December 2, 2011 | by Steve Irwin
visionandvalues.org/2011/12/the-marcellus-shale-boom/
An important effect of natural gas production in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and West Virginia is simple: jobs. In contrast to America’s chronically high unemployment rate, the Marcellus-generated job activity within these regions can only be described as a gold rush. Thousands of trucks, ranging from semi-tankers to white diesel crew-cab pickups, have flooded the streets and back roads of many towns. While billions of dollars in federal spending have done little to nothing to improve jobs and infrastructure, the dollars invested into these reborn communities, once hurting by economic depression, are all thanks to subsurface layers of dirty black shale.

Infrastructure improvements and job creation are not the only byproducts of Marcellus Shale drilling. Land owners are likewise reaping tremendous benefits. Three years ago, some land leased for gas production had a market value of $10 an acre, tops. The driving market force of competition has caused that number to surge, with landowners negotiating payment terms upwards of $3,000 an acre with 15 percent or better royalty rates. That’s cash in hand, checks in the mail, and escrow in the bank.
And still, a mere one percent of expected wells have been drilled within the Marcellus-rich region, with a potential of 200,000 wells. The full potential offers a source of American energy that is hard to estimate. The pipeline system needed to transport the hydrocarbons has only begun to be constructed, with boom-centers of crackers and compressors along the way. This could portend an economic viability extending 100 years.

This phenomenon can be understood in very basic economic terms. The development of Marcellus Shale could only happen in America. Consider: citizens in this nation have long enjoyed not only the unique freedom to pursue happiness but the liberty to own property. Although other portions of the globe could be cashing in shale—namely China, Canada, and Europe—an individual citizen’s control of land, even to the depths of thousands of feet, is unique to the United States. Furthermore, it is only through private industry and corporations that the efficient technology of hydrofracturing is made available. Companies like Chesapeake Energy, Range Resources, Hess, BP, and Consol are all publicly traded and held liable to their creditors, and thus are making private business decisions for their own sake and profit.

Of course, also part of the American phenomenon is the government’s regulatory role, which plays a crucial role in Marcellus development—or the lack thereof. Look no further than the state of New York, where a moratorium on natural gas exploration has capped economic activity.

 

[theswan]

I apologize!

I did not mean you were my friend. Anyone can quote scripture and we can all translate it as we want as well. The Church’s teaching is what we obey-right?

Ok then I believe we agree on that so my statement is that we ALL be careful of what we post vis a vis scripture. I have been guilty as well of using scripture to point out my view. I have however, corrected this and am man enough to see I was committing calumny.

Fact is when anyone here acts as an authority (believe me many do) they are twisting scripture to enhance their point of view which is effect saying the others view is false-this is calumny although folks want to disagree. My point is if we state opinion and say it is that is fine-when we use snippits of scripture or church writings, we are wrong period!

Castello, as far as eugenics, I did not believe for a moment you were guilty of this-I took this to the extreme to show as I see it, the lack of compassion in the name of this or that still has the effect of killing those who cannot fend for themselves.

As a man of compassion I have little respect for those who like yourself think we should be rid of welfare as we know it. That is why I feel it important to show what I believe is the result of a society that no longer cares for the 'lest" yes, survival of the fittess or if you will, eugenics because if we leave the weak to die, only the strong will survive.

So yeah take my apology on a personal basis but I still feel the way I do about those who have the belief that if welfare would only end we’d be so much better off.

We must take scripture as it is taught by the Church not our “slant”

G

 

[theswan]

1. The solemn proclamation of human rights is contradicted by a painful reality of violations, wars and violence of every kind, in the first place, genocides and mass deportations, the spreading on a virtual worldwide dimension of ever new forms of slavery such as trafficking in human beings, child soldiers, the exploitation of workers, illegal drug trafficking, prostitution. “Even in countries with democratic forms of government, these rights are not always fully respected”.[331]

Unfortunately, there is a gap between the “letter” and the “spirit” of human rights,[332] which can often be attributed to a merely formal recognition of these rights. The Church’s social doctrine, in consideration of the privilege accorded by the Gospel to the poor, repeats over and over that “the more fortunate should renounce some of their rights so as to place their goods more generously at the service of others” and that an excessive affirmation of equality “can give rise to an individualism in which each one claims his own rights without wishing to be answerable for the common good”.[333]

Ok this is an example of me committing the act or sin of calumny. I could but will not, take this “snippett” out of our social doctrine to show the “rich” or “more fortunate” should renounce some of their rights. hmmm maybe one of these “rights” is deciding how and when and how much tax he wants to pay toward welfare programs or whatever I choose to wean from this tiny portion of doctrine.

“See the Church says the rich have to help the poor!” hmm maybe maybe not as it is open to many interpretations. just as another may take a diferent snippett to bolster what they believe.

In doing this we are committing calumny although a very mild form (in my humble opinion)

So, I write this belief and a person tell me-'there is no where in Church teaching that says this"

Fine ok, IN YOUR OPINION!

I hope someone gets my drift about the danger of scripture and doctrine taken out of context.

G

 

[LisaA]

The greatest anti-poverty program comes from following the Church’s teaching about marriage and family life. While “The Swan” tells a horrific story of the loss of a breadwinner and dependence on charity, this is NOT the reality today. The majority of the poor in this country are single mothers who look to the state to support their children. The sperm donors for these children do little or nothing to support them.

Swan are you aware that if you do not have children before marriage, graduate from high school (which doesn’t take much) and have A job, the chances you will be poor in this country are minimal. Further if you take these steps, you might have periods of poverty (as a college student I at a lot of Top Ramen and had no heat) but it is not a permanent state of being.

LBJ’s programs have taken us down the ‘path to perdition’ by incentivizing irresponsibility and dependence. Once you have generations who have never lived in a functioning, normal family where there is a breadwinner (if not two) and cooperation of mother and father in raising children you create an endless cycle of poverty and dependence. You cannot blame the children because they only know what they’ve lived and have few if any decent role models for how to climb out of poverty.

Unfortunately requiring people to be responsible for themselves and their children is politically incorrect in today’s society. Encouraging marriage, responsibility, staying in school, and discouraging drug/cigarette/alcohol use would go a long way in reducing the poverty level.

Lisa

 

[LisaA]

Professor Luckey cites facts.
drwilliamluckey.com/index.cfm/2009/6/20/Government-Health-Care
Government “Health Care”
June 20, 2009, Dr. William Luckey
"Firstly, the proper term for what is being discussed is “medical care,” not health care. Health care is the responsibility of each and every person according to his ability to influence events that affect his or her health. This would include eating good foods, getting enough sleep, trying to stay away from dangerous situations if possible, and so forth. But when even doing these things do not work to preserve one’s health, one seeks out medical professionals to aid in returning to health, if possible. So we are really speaking about medical care, not health care.

"Next, the medical care system in the United States is the best in the world. We have the best-trained physicians, nurses and technicians in the world, and we have the most up-to-date medical equipment.

"Thirdly, we have the best medical financing system in the world. We have many medical insurance companies, including one that will insure you for $10 per day, which advertises on television. Our emergency rooms are required by law to take anyone who comes in, and our ambulances are required to take anyone who wants to go. This includes people who have colds, flu, a “boo-boo,” regardless of their ability to pay, and the cost for this is foisted on the paying patients of the hospital, unknown to them. The hospital is not required to cure the nonpaying patient who is seriously ill or injured, but must get them at least to where they are stabilized.

"Fourthly, physicians and hospitals are willing to take payments.

"Fifthly, there is Medicare and Medicaid for the poor.

“This week, both the president and his press secretary stated that there were countries where the people were completely satisfied with a “single payer” (i.e., socialist, government-run) medical system. When the press secretary was asked to name one, he could not. But a study by the Cato Institute has some very interesting data. Patients having to wait for more than four months for non-emergency surgery: Britain, 36%; Canada, 27 %; New Zealand, 26%; Australia, 23%; the United States, 5%. The elderly evaluate their health care way better in the UK than in either Canada or the United States. During a 12-month period, in Ontario, 71 patients died waiting for coronary bypass surgery. The United States also has the lowest hospital stay period compared to the other western socialist countries. Prostate cancer mortality rates among those diagnosed with the disease: UK, 57%; France, 49%; Germany, 44%; Australia, 35%; New Zealand 30%; Canada, 25%; and the United States, only 19%. Remember, this is under the current systems, which, in the US, is a free-market system, but in all the aforementioned other countries is a socialist system.”

Dr. William R. Luckey is Professor of Political Science and Economics at Christendom College and has expertise in Political Philosophy, Business and Economics, and Theology. He is an Adjunct Scholar of the Mises Institute and of the Acton Institute for the Study of Religion and Liberty. Dr. Luckey is also on the advisory board of the Center for Economic Personalism, and is on the Board of Scholars of the Virginia Institute for Public Policy Studies.

BRAVO! When I hear comments about our medical system being the “worst” and all the glories of government healthcare, my head blows off. I work in healthcare for a Catholic hospital and know of what I speak.

When we hear tales of those who have government healthcare who are happy with it, remember the vast majority have never USED it for anything more than routine and minimal care. If you were to ask cancer patients in these countries how they like their healthcare vis a vis cancer patients in the US, I suspect the answers would be different. Further these countries benefit from our innovative technology and development of drugs just as they benefit from our military protecting them.

You are right on regarding our litigious society DISCOURAGING volunteering by our healthcare providers. One of my retired doctors wanted to volunteer at a free clinic in an impoverished area of the state. Malpractice insurance, even for minimal part time practice ran $10000 a year. Needless to say he decided against volunteering in the US, instead going to India and Pakistan where he would be safe from lawsuits.

There are ways to reduce the cost of providing healthcare but the trial lawyers get in the way…even Howard Dean (a doctor) admitted this! Until that changes, we’re going to discourage healthcare providers from helping to solve the problems of medical care for the poor.

Lisa

 

[JimG]

Here is a quote from Bill Clinton’s White House staffer, William Galston:

“You need only do three things in this country to avoid poverty: finish high school, marry before having a child, and marry after the age of 20. Only eight percent of the families who do this are poor; 79 percent of those who fail to do this are poor.”

–

 

[theswan]

Yes I agree but there is one more…

Don’t get sick or disabled.

Maybe this issue is too close to me to be objective so henceforth I will no longer comment.

My “view” is from a person who has been in poverty, worked out of it while battling alcoholism. I got sober 24 years ago, got a degree, got married worked over 30 years 23 in mental health, several breaking my back schlepping furniture up tenement walkup’s and paid my due tax’s throughout.

My back was damaged from years of physical work as well as football I played 7 years. I got in an auto accident that made my back require surgery. I tried to work 10 more years mostly in agony. My wife decided to leave me (she has since begged forgivness) I was losing time at work and a final work accident pushed my pain and disability over the edge as a screw placed in my back broke in half in that last accident.

I went on workers comp then SSD. I had re joined the Faith and became active as a volunteer in a nursing home, church and prisons ( I say this to make the point that I still “give” as I’m able) Now my point:…

Where would I be if not for FDR and the new deal “social” programs? I’m a proud man and have a hard time begging family for help (they have helped me) Were I supposed to go to charity’s, well maybe i’d have to but I do not know any that will help me pay rent and bills etc throughout my disability. I wish I’d saved enough but as I was in human service, I made less then 35K a year at best! After tax it would have been near impossible to sock away say 650 thousand for retirement disability. (rough estimate)

So yes! I applaud our countries current system flawed as it is. I do not trust for a moment that private charity will or even be able to help the millions like me. History as I see it has shown a wonderful Church with great intentions but without the sheer n dollar amounts to really assist folks-All the charities together fill a niche but faced with an unjaundiced eye it is clear it has no where near the resource to do it.

I searched here to see what the right of center side has to offer as from what I read, it is not the state’s job to help but allow business to flourish with least possible government. To me that is a noble sentiment that has not thus far worked as the past shows (gilded age to the depression had much free reign for robber barons and business)

I saw greed personified in cigars acutally being lit with 100 dollar bills (ok maybe not every day but it was done) Extreme wealth and extreme poverty-Then the great depression again many did quite well while many suffered greatly.

I wanted to hear answers to see how it would work without a welfare component and at least to my satisfaction, has not shown a real solution rather then charities and “good” jobs to be had if business flows well.

So, I salute FDR I thank LBJ and I will live the rest of my days (I hope) in security with a roof over my head, food, medical care and a few dollars in my pocket. I really cringe at the though of where I’d be without the social security program.

I opt out of comment save for any private messages as the back and forth right wing-left wing banter has caused me distress.

Thanks to all who tried to answer the issue

God Bless and peace be with your spirit

 

[Abu]

theswan #33
Where would I be if not for FDR and the new deal “social” programs?..So, I salute FDR

Facing the facts of the destructive nature of government and Federal Reserve intervention is essential for facing reality.

**Economic Depressions: Their Cause and Cure **Mises Daily: Thursday, October 02, 2008 by Murray N. Rothbard
mises.org/daily/3127
“If Coolidge made 1929 inevitable, it was President Hoover who prolonged and deepened the depression, transforming it from a typically sharp but swiftly-disappearing depression into a lingering and near-fatal malady, a malady “cured” only by the holocaust of World War II. Hoover, not Franklin Roosevelt, was the founder of the policy of the “New Deal”: essentially the massive use of the State to do exactly what Misesian theory would most warn against — to prop up wage rates above their free-market levels, prop up prices, inflate credit, and lend money to shaky business positions. Roosevelt only advanced, to a greater degree, what Hoover had pioneered. The result for the first time in American history, was a nearly perpetual depression and nearly permanent mass unemployment. The Coolidge crisis had become the unprecedentedly prolonged Hoover-Roosevelt depression.”

We Could Use a Man Like Warren Harding Again, Dr. Mark W. Hendrickson, August 12, 2009.
tinyurl.com/3dd6by3
“Harding convincingly demonstrated that government intervention is NOT the solution to economic downturns. His policies were the polar opposite of FDR’s depression-lengthening interventionistic blunders.”

**Mises vs. Fisher on Money, Method, and Prediction: The Case of the Great Depression **(Mises Institute; Auburn University) Mark Thornton, Dec 19, 2006).
mises.org/periodical.aspx?Id=7
“This decade of economic boom and stock market bubble is often referred to as the Roaring Twenties….Rothbard ([1963] 1983) has persuasively shown that the principal cause of the boom and bubble was the Federal Reserve management of the nation’s money and banking systems…. The stock market crash [1929] signaled the beginning of the Great Depression, the longest and most severe economic decline in modern history.”

 

[St_Francis]

Yes I agree but there is one more…

Don’t get sick or disabled.

Maybe this issue is too close to me to be objective so henceforth I will no longer comment.

My “view” is from a person who has been in poverty, worked out of it while battling alcoholism. I got sober 24 years ago, got a degree, got married worked over 30 years 23 in mental health, several breaking my back schlepping furniture up tenement walkup’s and paid my due tax’s throughout.

My back was damaged from years of physical work as well as football I played 7 years. I got in an auto accident that made my back require surgery. I tried to work 10 more years mostly in agony. My wife decided to leave me (she has since begged forgivness) I was losing time at work and a final work accident pushed my pain and disability over the edge as a screw placed in my back broke in half in that last accident.

I went on workers comp then SSD. I had re joined the Faith and became active as a volunteer in a nursing home, church and prisons ( I say this to make the point that I still “give” as I’m able) Now my point:…

Where would I be if not for FDR and the new deal “social” programs? I’m a proud man and have a hard time begging family for help (they have helped me) Were I supposed to go to charity’s, well maybe i’d have to but I do not know any that will help me pay rent and bills etc throughout my disability. I wish I’d saved enough but as I was in human service, I made less then 35K a year at best! After tax it would have been near impossible to sock away say 650 thousand for retirement disability. (rough estimate)

So yes! I applaud our countries current system flawed as it is. I do not trust for a moment that private charity will or even be able to help the millions like me. History as I see it has shown a wonderful Church with great intentions but without the sheer n dollar amounts to really assist folks-All the charities together fill a niche but faced with an unjaundiced eye it is clear it has no where near the resource to do it.

I searched here to see what the right of center side has to offer as from what I read, it is not the state’s job to help but allow business to flourish with least possible government. To me that is a noble sentiment that has not thus far worked as the past shows (gilded age to the depression had much free reign for robber barons and business)

I saw greed personified in cigars acutally being lit with 100 dollar bills (ok maybe not every day but it was done) Extreme wealth and extreme poverty-Then the great depression again many did quite well while many suffered greatly.

I wanted to hear answers to see how it would work without a welfare component and at least to my satisfaction, has not shown a real solution rather then charities and “good” jobs to be had if business flows well.

So, I salute FDR I thank LBJ and I will live the rest of my days (I hope) in security with a roof over my head, food, medical care and a few dollars in my pocket. I really cringe at the though of where I’d be without the social security program.

I opt out of comment save for any private messages as the back and forth right wing-left wing banter has caused me distress.

Thanks to all who tried to answer the issue

God Bless and peace be with your spirit

One of the things that has struck me about the Protestant Revolt is the dissolution of the social safety net provided by monasteries and convents. Before the PR, monasteries and convents provided all kinds of care to all kinds of people in need. Afterwards, well, the Protestant work ethic came into play

Another thing that has played into the difficulties we now face in the US is the very reliance on the government. I remember when Gore was running for President, he presented a woman who would have had to choose between medicine or food… and then it came out that her son was Quite Well Off, more than able to help her with her meds. Her response? She wanted to be independent. Goodness gracious, this woman was relying on the help of complete strangers but would not want to take help from her son whose diapers she’d changed?

But we used to be more able to rely on relatives, because there used to be more relatives. When many families had 6 or 8 or more children, there were plenty of younger relatives to help out. One elderly lady I know had no children, but a couple of her 4 brothers and sisters did, and so this elderly lady is cared for by a neice.

So inbetween lots of relatives, monasteries and convents, other helpful people, and moral lifestyles, yes, I think that we could mostly manage without government aid. But I do not think that will happen without a massive conversion to the Catholic Faith.

 

[TiredinNM]

Here is a quote from Bill Clinton’s White House staffer, William Galston:

“You need only do three things in this country to avoid poverty: finish high school, marry before having a child, and marry after the age of 20. Only eight percent of the families who do this are poor; 79 percent of those who fail to do this are poor.”

–

I absolutely did all three of those things. Finished graduate school, married at 26, had my first child at 28 and my second at 32. I worked very hard, was never a stay at home mom. I often worked 60 plus hours a week to keep the bills paid. Yes, I saved, paid for private insurance. I had a retirement account and a decent but not overly nice car. Just one for all of us, and a small modest apartment. We did not live beyond our means.

Capitalism is a system of winners and losers, and I’m a loser. Both of my children had genetic disorders I had no control over. By the time we had diagnosis and realized what we were in for, what were we to do? Send them back? I did the right thing, I worked and maintained private insurance. Also caring for an autistic child and one with physical disabilities. Medicaid only helps the poor and destitute, my daughter needed care that could only be obtained out of state and Medicaid will NOT pay. She spent 4 months in the hospital in Portland Ore (Dornbeckers Childrens) about 8 years ago. That left us, even with private insurance $100,000.00 in debt. 4 months is more than family leave allows for, so I also lost my job and my insurance. Out of work for a year, the savings were gone. YES I lived for a YEAR on my savings, so I did my best. Medicaid filled that gap for colds and flu visits, but paid nothing on the extensive travel and orthopedic problems that still needed attention. Our only orthopedic children’s hospital in NM considered her beyond help and predicted she would only live a year or two. At same time, I’m out of work and with no insurance and I still have an autistic son who is also a juvenile, insulin dependent diabetic who also has seizures. Getting back to work, and getting private insurance again was a nightmare and took three years. I did the right thing, my daughter is now in High School, however, she again needed extensive surgery and treatment to save her life. So again, I cut back on work, This time we ended up in St. Louis, at St. Louis Children’s, again taking her to a place she could get appropriate care. Medicaid was useless even though we were eligible as it was out of state. Didn’t pay a dime. Private insurance paid out about $380,000.00 but we still racked up about $50,000 in unpaid bills, plus lost work and travel. Now a year past that, I’m still needing a decent job. All the stress over the last 10 years has ruined my own health and an auto-immune disorder is destroying my joints and internal organs, mostly my pancreas.

I’m TIRED. I’ve worked professional jobs and paid in thousands of dollars in taxes, YES I paid TAXES. Yet reading here, all I see is that because I’m now poor, I’m a parasite. I need disability, I’m about to lose my house, and its getting to where I cannot walk and am almost continuously nauseous from medications and pancreatic problems. My eyes are so dry I cannot see well. I still work part time as director of a program serving the elderly. I still pay for private insurance (takes almost half my husband’s check) and I do not get a dime in government assistance. The disability insurance I carried on myself is gone with my former job and of course is useless now that I need it.

I’m getting to the point I cannot physically do my job. Its not a matter of sucking it up, I’ve done that for years. Its a matter that I cannot get through a day without falling or vomiting.
If i lost my job, I lose my house. Not being unrealistic here, I need to hang on to it, our payment is less than on a 1 bedroom apartment. (as if a family of 4 would be allowed to rent a 1 bedroom) Losing it will not reduce our expenses. I only have 4 more years until its paid off, but it doesn’t look like we’ll make it. I might be eligible for a small disability payment, but it usually takes being out of work for a year to apply, then more months or even years until getting it approved. If it will even be there. Thats one of those “entitlements” that everyone loves to hate and will probably be ended long before I can get approved.

What does it matter, I’m just a useless parasite looking for a handout. I should shut up and pray to die soon so as not to inconvenience anyone.

 

[LisaA]

I absolutely did all three of those things. Finished graduate school, married at 26, had my first child at 28 and my second at 32. I worked very hard, was never a stay at home mom. I often worked 60 plus hours a week to keep the bills paid. Yes, I saved, paid for private insurance. I had a retirement account and a decent but not overly nice car. Just one for all of us, and a small modest apartment. We did not live beyond our means.

Capitalism is a system of winners and losers, and I’m a loser. Both of my children had genetic disorders I had no control over… . I only have 4 more years until its paid off, but it doesn’t look like we’ll make it. I might be eligible for a small disability payment, but it usually takes being out of work for a year to apply, then more months or even years until getting it approved. If it will even be there. Thats one of those “entitlements” that everyone loves to hate and will probably be ended long before I can get approved.

What does it matter, I’m just a useless parasite looking for a handout. I should shut up and pray to die soon so as not to inconvenience anyone.

Your story is certainly a series of incredible challenges and someone like you is exactly what the safety net is all about. No one would begrudge you receiving some help both from the government and private charities. But I do challenge you to quote one single poster who disputes someone truly in need receiving assistance. I haven’t seen one. Americans in general, and people of faith particularly are most compassionate, charitable and caring. But we are also realists and quite honestly a substantial portion of these anti poverty programs have proven to be counterproductive with money wasted on ineffective methods of breaking the cycle of poverty. That is the objection, not a case like yours.

What I have seen in this thread is a lot of frustration by people who, like you, do the right thing and see their hard earned dollars going to those who have made a series of incredibly poor choices, refusing to take responsibility for their actions and expecting someone else to pay their way. Not the poor, not the needy, not the helpless but rather the opportunists who have become corrupted by the myriad of available support for doing the wrong thing.

Trust me on this one. I’ve been a volunteer with various homeless shelters, drug & alcohol treatment centers, child abuse social service agencies. What I have seen are a lot of healthy, capable people who have learned to live off of others and do not have any concept of self reliance. Once this lifestyle starts, it gets passed along as easily as blue eyes or black hair. After a few generations of not seeing functional and sober adults working, taking responsibility for their children, it gets increasingly hard to turn this tide. This is not your situation at all and again, I think you are not seeing the difference between your situation and a third generation single mother without a high school education simply hoping TANF gets extended indefinitely.

Capitalism didn’t cause your problems and you are correct, capitalism isn’t like to solve them either. Your situation is exactly the reason we do need a safety net. The trick is not letting it become a hammock for those who would rather let someone else pull the wagon
Lisa A

 

[LindaCamp]

Pretty simple. Jobs. People work so they can eat.

And what if they CANT work? Some people have serious physical and mental problems that prevent them from holding stable or ANY employment! Besides, you can’t buy a job now that is worth anything.

 

[LisaA]

And what if they CANT work? Some people have serious physical and mental problems that prevent them from holding stable or ANY employment! Besides, you can’t buy a job now that is worth anything.

Once again, people who have serious physical or mental problems are not the issue. Do you think the majority of people in this country using social services are seriously physically or mentally disabled? Aside from that many people with physical impairments or those who are mentally challenged seek and find work.

This is not the problem nor the reason the poverty level hasn’t decreased much if at all since Lyndon Johnson declared war on poverty. Statistically speaking in this country if you have a high school education, don’t have a child out of wedlock, have A job of some kind you are unlikely to be poor barring some catastrophic health problem or serious disability.

To truly fight poverty we have to understand and be willing to speak the truth which is that like much of the ill health in this country, it’s a matter of making poor choices. However our politically correct society, particularly the Social Industrial Complex doesn’t want to face or speak the truth which is if you get knocked up in high school, don’t marry, engage in substance abuse, and cut short your education, your options are pretty limited. Further the child growing up in that environment will unfortunately often follow the same path. I remember when volunteering for an social services agency that worked with families in crisis, that the children involved were often the third or fourth generation “in the system.” Children learn what they live and as families break up or never form, the abbarant lifestyles become the new normal.

As to not being able to ‘buy a job’ worth anything, again that’s to some extent a matter of choices in education, career and geography. There are places in the midwest that are booming and there are a lot of “Women’s Studies” majors who are working at Starbucks and trying to pay of ten grand in student loans. There isn’t a happy ending to that story either.

I feel blessed to live in a country where to a great extent we can determine our fate. I just hope that we can help guide the next generation to a better life in a better world.

Lisa