Poverty takes many forms

[ncjohn]

Those who are already in some form of poverty,
have Jesus taken from them, too - when those who
have the audacity to speak in His name, act not like Him,
driving wounded sheep away.

“My sheep know My voice.”

And it sure in heaven doesn’t sound like some of the voices
purporting to speak in His name.

That’s why it’s so quiet in His pasture, where wounded sheep go.
One can hear the sound of lambs drinking from still waters.
In His peace - and in the quiet, He gives His sheep and lambs repose.
He restores them.

And it is so wonderful, Reen, when one finds such a pasture. Where one can graze without worry about the wolf dressed in sheep’s clothing. Where all are equally poor, but all are equally rich in their blessing of being protected by Him.

There are far too many out there claiming to speak in His name but whose message is anything but “good news.” Quite frankly if their message is the good news, I’m not sure why I would want to spend eternity with that God.

 

[reen12]

I’m not ‘reconciled’ at all.
I’m outta here.

reen12
*

 

[reen12]

I’m not ‘reconciled’ at all. That supposed ‘sacrament’
has hideous memories for me.
I’m outta here.

reen12

 

[reen12]

I wish to God that I could remove my posts from my thread.
I’m not ‘reconciled’ at all. I’m outta here.

reen12

 

[reen12]

As to a discussion on the sacrament of Reconciliation - joyful, or otherwise,
I intend to give same a miss. I find my own poverty asserting. :juggle:

reen12

 

[reen12]

reen12

 

[reen12]

reen12

 

[ncjohn]

I’m sorry Reen. I didn’t catch that I was participating in taking the thread off-topic, I will remove myself from the discussion at this point.

Mea culpa.

 

[reen12]

Not to worry, John.
Sacramental absolution would trump my own, so they tell me.
I surely do not believe that, for one moment. But then there’s
a whole lot of things I no longer believe in. The Easter Bunny,
Santa Claus, the shoemaker’s elves, and Catholic doctrine. :coffeeread:

Maureen

 

[BarbaraTherese]

As to the spritual pride issue, I had to chuckle at that one. I can remember seeing a checklist posted a couple years ago–I believe by Barbara Therese–about indicators of humility. I remember going through it, happily checking off items that showed how well I was moving in that direction. And then when I was all done, having to laugh at myself and add one that read “takes great pride in their humility.” CHECK!!

I can’t recall the list, John…but then it is rare that my memory can be depended on, hence I tend to not worry it overly. Sounds like my work must admit! This is what I mean about this problem of humility, one feels one is moving happily in the general direction…and then CHECK…MATE! …and back to the drawing board and that two steps forward, three back type of spiritual tangle… I mean tango . That hymn that runs “I am Lord of the Dance, says He”…always gives me a smile…one of my favourties is “Come as you are”, although it gives me a smile too.

Barb

 

[distracted]

What I’m trying to say is that how your concerns are communicated to the priest, and how effective that communication will be, will be determined partly by what is said and how it is said

I always am very careful about what i say and how i say it (except here at the forums… ?? I have to admit that sometimes, when people are rude to me here - first - well, i don’t always handle it so well… but anyway,)… I am usually very careful not to offend, to stick to the purpose of being there in the confessional, etc… I did nothing wrong in this situation… I can say that with a clear conscience…

communicate how what he did affected you, he may be able to “hear” what you say.

I cna’t help thinking that he is a priest… has studied scripture and Church teachings, etc… He was also not young… My point is that if he doesn’t know by now how to talk to people in a christian way, how is anything i say goingto make much of adifference??

I have known many people who were turned away from God and Church by the words and actions of un-Christian people claiming to speak for God. Many will say we shouldn’t be affected by the person, but in reality we are at many different places on our spiritual paths and for a priest to become a stumbling block to one whose faith isnt’ as strong yet is scandalous.

for sure… and even if we are rather mature in our faith… it is still not right to have to be subjected to such demeaning, not to mention totally un-necessary behavior… I mean, what was the purpose of his rude-ness? to vent his frustrations? I have more frustrations than anyone can imagine, yet i do not take my problems out on other people…

Many times they are just in a habitual behavior that they aren’t even aware of,

Sorry, i am not buying this…

The mere fact of him walking out without offering absolution is something that really can’t be allowed to happen IMHO, no matter how bad a day he might be having.

Maybe he was spiritually sensitive… and could sense that i had no need of confession… since i am so holy. Seriously, though, maybe he coiuld sense i didn’t have any mortal sins on my soul… but still, i feel that confession is a good thing regardless of that… and i had not been for a long time…

You sound like you’re secure enough to know that God has forgiven you when you have sincerely confessed your sins.

sometimes… sometimes not…

But I agree that there are many whose faith who may not be as strong, or whose scrupulosity might cause them to doubt that their sins have been forgiven. That potential should not be there, yet I hear of priests actually “refusing” absolution, making judgments that someone isn’t repentant enough or that they’ve heard the same sin from them too many times and don’t believe they have an intention or desire to refrain!

that is scary… I have never been refused absolution before… (except in the aformentioned case)… I have never ben accused of not being sorry enough… I don’t think that is right… If the person SAYS he/she is not going to stop doing some sin, that is when the priest should refrain from absolving… but ifthat were the case, why would he/she be there??

 

[JReducation]

NcJohn But I agree that there are many whose faith who may not be as strong, or whose scrupulosity might cause them to doubt that their sins have been forgiven. That potential should not be there, yet I hear of priests actually “refusing” absolution, making judgments that someone isn’t repentant enough or that they’ve heard the same sin from them too many times and don’t believe they have an intention or desire to refrain!

that is scary… I have never been refused absolution before… (except in the aformentioned case)… I have never ben accused of not being sorry enough… I don’t think that is right… If the person SAYS he/she is not going to stop doing some sin, that is when the priest should refrain from absolving… but if that were the case, why would he/she be there??

Church law does allow the priest to deny absolution. There are situations when a person may be asked a question by a the priest that gives him the information that he needs.

I’m going to use a hypothetical example here.

A person confesses that they feel anger toward a cheating spouse. The priest may ask, “Can you forgive him/her?” The person responds, “Never” or “No right now.”

In such a case the priest then has the right to deny absolution to one who, even though in pain, has temporarilly or permanently lost the ability to show mercy and forgiveness. He may suggest that the person return when they have a change of heart.

You cannot offer forgiveness to one who cannot forgive. This contrary to the theology taught in the Lord’s Prayer.

That’s just a hypothetic example. But it does happen.

A person who confesses an addiction to sex and ther priest suggests counseling or some form of support group and the person rejects the idea. The priest must then question whether the person wants to overcome the problem.

Like this, there are many situations. This does not mean that God does not forgive. The priest can only go on what he is hearing. Only God can see what is happening in the heart.

The Church is very clear that absolution from a priest is not the only way of receiving forgiveness. It is the most certain way, but not exclusive. There is a difference between certain and exclusive.

JR

 

[distracted]

You cannot offer forgiveness to one who cannot forgive. This contrary to the theology taught in the Lord’s Prayer.

i didn’t mean to imply that i didn’t agree with you… I do… I know that the priest CAN refuse to absolve… I just didn’t think it was a very commong occurrence… & i don’t think it is… because, as i said… why would a person be in the confessional if he/she wasn’t really sorry? But i guess a person could be there because they are beginning to be sorry? They know that they should be sorry, even if they are not… ?

 

[JReducation]

i didn’t mean to imply that i didn’t agree with you… I do… I know that the priest CAN refuse to absolve… I just didn’t think it was a very commong occurrence… & i don’t think it is… because, as i said… why would a person be in the confessional if he/she wasn’t really sorry? But i guess a person could be there because they are beginning to be sorry? They know that they should be sorry, even if they are not… ?

The human condition is still such a mystery, isn’t it?

JR

 

[reen12]

If a discussion concerning sacramental confession is of interest,
may I request that another thread be started?
This thread concerns: “Poverty takes many forms,”
of which, I am the OP.

Thank you,

reen12

 

[distracted]

The human condition is still such a mystery, isn’t it?

JR

hmm… true enough… but not sure i understand the connection of your comment to mine… (??)

 

[reen12]

The real “poverty” I see, is in any religious entity which fails to note
that human emotions are a gift from the Creator.
That emotions exist for good and sufficient reason,
or our Creator would not have endowed us with same.
Sometimes, emotions make us experience our own poverty of heart.

And what of anger? A lack of forgiveness?

Does anger “cushion” terrible hurt? Do we feel anger, first,
so that we are protected - from the avalanche of profound hurt -
that follows great injury? Does the mind protect itself?
Is forgiveness even possible - in the early days and hours and
months of great hurt?

One does not have to act on the anger.
Whatever human beings feel, they feel.

And what of God, in all of this? Wouldn’t His prime concern
be to reach out to the one dreadfully injured, emotionally?
One in great anger?

And that is the difference, between God and given religious entities.
God really does relate to each of us as a unique creation.
He is not “parsing” our emotions. Which is “acceptable,” which isn’t.
God meets each of us where we are, not where a given religous entity
demands that we be, emotionally.

I do not at all accept the doctrines of the RCC.
Yet it did occur to me, one day, that I could ask Jesus to
ask the Father to forgive this person, because I would have
felt like a complete hypocrite - trying to ‘pretend’ that I forgave.
That comes, in time, I’ve found.
If I could tell Jesus how angry I was, and why, then He could explain this to His Father.

A religious entity sees a ‘penitent.’
Yet God, the Shepherd, heals - because He hears the great hurt keening -* behind* the anger.
He knows that anger may swathe a shattered heart.
To keep the hurt from being seen?

Anger can be like a tidal wave, given a certain degree of intentionl injury.
Does God not understand this, in one of His creatures?

“I know how hurt you are. I know that you are angry.”
“But I am glad that you have asked My Son to ask Me to give pardon.”
“I know that that is the best that you can do, now.”
“You are a plucky little creature, beloved. Remember, I love you.”

God’s one question? “Are you OK?” http://bestsmileys.com/nono/9.gif

reen12

 

[JReducation]

hmm… true enough… but not sure i understand the connection of your comment to mine… (??)

Because you and someone else asked why someone would go to confession if they did not want to change.

I said, the human condition is a mystery. In other words, why do people do many things that we don’t understand?

JR

 

[JReducation]

If I’m repeating something that has been said, I apologize.

I’m also thinking about Holy Poverty as was taught to us by people like St. Francis, St. Vincent de Paul and Bl. Mother Teresa.

I’m wondering how many of us realize that the laity is also called to embrace holy poverty as a way of life, not just religious.

In my experience, this has been very liberating. When I became a Franciscan I joined a secular fraternity of men and women who make private vows. We are not religious. We are lay secular men and women. One of the vows that me make is poverty.

Though we keep our jobs and have our homes and family, individually one has nothing of one’s own. What one has is for the good of one’s family. As far as personal property is concerned, we have only what we need to perform our duties as parents and employees.

In m personal life this is reduced to one change of clothing for each day of the week, some work clothes to clean and scrub, a suit for when needed. As to the other things that one usually finds around our home. My family has what most do. But my own life has been reduced to the basics and I am very refreshed with this. It is so much more comfortable to sleep in a smaller bed, the smallest room in the house and the only room that does not have a flat screen TV.

I’m not sharing this to brag or get an applause. Please do not misunderstand. This is not my intention. But I have found what I believe to be a pearl of great price and have always wanted to share it with others.

In my experience, when you do this for the Lord and you become as detached as possible from as many things, people and places as possible, you seem to have more time, energy and inner silence. There is something very special to that empty space that used to be filled with so many things.

That space becomes open for God to operate within us. It becomes a space where we can retreat to and hear the voice of God. I creates time for other things such as family time, parish ministry, special projects for the poorest of the poor. We begin to see that we are not so dependent on the material and we become more sensitive to the needs of others, especially those who are not loved in society.

St. Francis once said that if you have material property then you have to care for it. This makes perfect sense. The less that you have, the more you can spend on others, especially your family and the Church.

I am not sure how to explain this joy or this experience. Again, I apologize if it sounds like pride or a pat on my own back. It’s not meant to be that at all. I really want to share something that I found that makes me feel closer to God and to others.

JR

 

[reen12]

Being sensitive to others and their needs.

Like the* Poverello*?

One of the prime ways to effect this, I have found -
is to pay attention to what is happening around me.

To take eyes off “self” - long enough to see another, and their needs. :juggle:

reen12