A
Achatius
Guest
Who makes the poor poor. Why do they live in poverty, is it their fault?
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R
Rob_s_Wife
Guest
There are as many circumstances that cause poverty as there are people living in poverty. I’m sure a very small percentage is through their own fault, but the majority of the time I do not believe that to be the case.
To name a very few:
famine
war
disease
economic/racial/educational/social boundaries
collateral damage
family situations or lack there of
hopelessness
To name a very few:
famine
war
disease
economic/racial/educational/social boundaries
collateral damage
family situations or lack there of
hopelessness
C
contemplative
Guest
Let it, therefore, be a fixed rule for living well and dying well, that we must often consider and seriously ponder the account that must be given to God of our luxury in fine houses, in gardens, in carriages, in a multitude of servants, in the splendor of dress, in banquets, in hoarding up riches, and in unnecessary expenses which injure a great multitude of the poor and sick, who stand in need of our superfluities, and who now cry to God. And on the day of judgement, they will not cease crying out until we, together with the rich man, shall be condemned to eternal flames.
Page 36 Live Well, Die Holy by Saint Robert Bellarmine
Irresponsible wealth causes poverty.
Page 36 Live Well, Die Holy by Saint Robert Bellarmine
Irresponsible wealth causes poverty.
M
mlchance
Guest
Rob’s Wife said:
You left out some big ones. All of the ones you’ve listed seem to imply that being poor is someone else’s fault (i.e., “I’m poor because there are boundaries to me not being poor.”).
We also need to realize that many people are poor because of stupid decisions that are their own fault. For example, those who drop out of high school, those who get pregnant out of wedlock, and those who get involved with illegal drugs and alcohol, especially at young age, are much more likely to be economically disadvantaged.
– Mark L. Chance.
A
Achatius
Guest
Yes this is the suffering that is down to the fact that humans have free will, down to the fault of humans. but natural disasters cannot be caused by human free will, so is this explained by the devil figure? Or there is the idea formulated by St. Augustine that things like this, suffering, does not exist. Poverty is just the lack of wealth, illness the lack of health, suffering the lack of good.
But how much of suffering is the Devil responsible for? I know one view is that he is responsible for Moral evil - that which is caused by humans. What does everyone believe about these things?
C
contemplative
Guest
**The Little Match-Seller **By Hans Christian Andersen (1846)
IT was terribly cold and nearly dark on the last evening of the old year, and the snow was falling fast. In the cold and the darkness, a poor little girl, with bare head and naked feet, roamed through the streets. It is true she had on a pair of slippers when she left home, but they were not of much use. They were very large, so large, indeed, that they had belonged to her mother, and the poor little creature had lost them in running across the street to avoid two carriages that were rolling along at a terrible rate. One of the slippers she could not find, and a boy seized upon the other and ran away with it, saying that he could use it as a cradle, when he had children of his own. So the little girl went on with her little naked feet, which were quite red and blue with the cold. In an old apron she carried a number of matches, and had a bundle of them in her hands. No one had bought anything of her the whole day, nor had anyone given her even a penny. Shivering with cold and hunger, she crept along; poor little child, she looked the picture of misery. The snowflakes fell on her long, fair hair, which hung in curls on her shoulders, but she regarded them not.
Lights were shining from every window, and there was a savory smell of roast goose, for it was New-year’s eve—yes, she remembered that. In a corner, between two houses, one of which projected beyond the other, she sank down and huddled herself together. She had drawn her little feet under her, but she could not keep off the cold; and she dared not go home, for she had sold no matches, and could not take home even a penny of money. Her father would certainly beat her; besides, it was almost as cold at home as here, for they had only the roof to cover them, through which the wind howled, although the largest holes had been stopped up with straw and rags. Her little hands were almost frozen with the cold. Ah! perhaps a burning match might be some good, if she could draw it from the bundle and strike it against the wall, just to warm her fingers. She drew one out—“scratch!” how it sputtered as it burnt! It gave a warm, bright light, like a little candle, as she held her hand over it. It was really a wonderful light. It seemed to the little girl that she was sitting by a large iron stove, with polished brass feet and a brass ornament. How the fire burned! and seemed so beautifully warm that the child stretched out her feet as if to warm them, when, lo! the flame of the match went out, the stove vanished, and she had only the remains of the half-burnt match in her hand.
She rubbed another match on the wall. It burst into a flame, and where its light fell upon the wall it became as transparent as a veil, and she could see into the room. The table was covered with a snowy white table-cloth, on which stood a splendid dinner service, and a steaming roast goose, stuffed with apples and dried plums. And what was still more wonderful, the goose jumped down from the dish and waddled across the floor, with a knife and fork in its breast, to the little girl. Then the match went out, and there remained nothing but the thick, damp, cold wall before her.
She lighted another match, and then she found herself sitting under a beautiful Christmas-tree. It was larger and more beautifully decorated than the one which she had seen through the glass door at the rich merchant’s. Thousands of tapers were burning upon the green branches, and colored pictures, like those she had seen in the show-windows, looked down upon it all. The little one stretched out her hand towards them, and the match went out.
Continued…
C
contemplative
Guest
The Christmas lights rose higher and higher, till they looked to her like the stars in the sky. Then she saw a star fall, leaving behind it a bright streak of fire. “Someone is dying,” thought the little girl, for her old grandmother, the only one who had ever loved her, and who was now dead, had told her that when a star falls, a soul was going up to God.
She again rubbed a match on the wall, and the light shone round her; in the brightness stood her old grandmother, clear and shining, yet mild and loving in her appearance. “Grandmother,” cried the little one, “O take me with you; I know you will go away when the match burns out; you will vanish like the warm stove, the roast goose, and the large, glorious Christmas-tree.” And she made haste to light the whole bundle of matches, for she wished to keep her grandmother there. And the matches glowed with a light that was brighter than the noon-day, and her grandmother had never appeared so large or so beautiful. She took the little girl in her arms, and they both flew upwards in brightness and joy far above the earth, where there was neither cold nor hunger nor pain, for they were with God.
In the dawn of morning there lay the poor little one, with pale cheeks and smiling mouth, leaning against the wall; she had been frozen to death on the last evening of the year; and the New-year’s sun rose and shone upon a little corpse! The child still sat, in the stiffness of death, holding the matches in her hand, one bundle of which was burnt. “She tried to warm herself,” said some. No one imagined what beautiful things she had seen, nor into what glory she had entered with her grandmother, on New-year’s day.
She again rubbed a match on the wall, and the light shone round her; in the brightness stood her old grandmother, clear and shining, yet mild and loving in her appearance. “Grandmother,” cried the little one, “O take me with you; I know you will go away when the match burns out; you will vanish like the warm stove, the roast goose, and the large, glorious Christmas-tree.” And she made haste to light the whole bundle of matches, for she wished to keep her grandmother there. And the matches glowed with a light that was brighter than the noon-day, and her grandmother had never appeared so large or so beautiful. She took the little girl in her arms, and they both flew upwards in brightness and joy far above the earth, where there was neither cold nor hunger nor pain, for they were with God.
In the dawn of morning there lay the poor little one, with pale cheeks and smiling mouth, leaning against the wall; she had been frozen to death on the last evening of the year; and the New-year’s sun rose and shone upon a little corpse! The child still sat, in the stiffness of death, holding the matches in her hand, one bundle of which was burnt. “She tried to warm herself,” said some. No one imagined what beautiful things she had seen, nor into what glory she had entered with her grandmother, on New-year’s day.
R
Rob_s_Wife
Guest
I never claimed to list them all, only a very few. You don’t say what “big ones” I left out?. I also wrote I do believe a small percentage is due to their own faults/choices.You left out some big ones. All of the ones you’ve listed seem to imply that being poor is someone else’s fault (i.e., “I’m poor because there are boundaries to me not being poor.”).
The ones I listed are usually out of an individuals hands. They cannot make it rain in times of famine. They cannot stop bullets like superman. They cannot heal the parent/child dying of cancer. They cannot make world leaders and businessmen provide a better wages or working conditions. They cannot make their father stop beating their mother or end rape. They cannot get an education where there is none available.
**The vast majority of the world’s poor are not poor by choice. They are born that way and it is a feat fit for superheros to rise above that situation. Everything many take as being easy - is an ordeal for those in poverty. **
We also need to realize that many people are poor because of stupid decisions that are their own fault. For example, those who drop out of high school, those who get pregnant out of wedlock, and those who get involved with illegal drugs and alcohol, especially at young age, are much more likely to be economically disadvantaged.
**This is a cop-out, imho. It makes everyone feel so much better to look down on those poor stupid people who really deserve what their getting anyhow don’t they?**
Do some people make stupid mistakes in their lives? Of course they do! But that is not the majority and shouldn’t be used to taint our compassion for the poor. Especially as that attitude doesn’t help any of the poor in the world. Especially when so many of those looking down on them are better off by the pure luck of birth.
– Mark L. Chance.
It may help to keep in mind the main topic was poverty. I think many Americans and Europeans have no clue what poverty really is. Poverty is not a situation of not having name brand clothes, a cable tv, or not getting a family vacation. Poverty is waking up not knowing when your next meal is, not having a coat in winter, or penicilian for a sick child and knowing there is very little hope of the next day being any better.
There’s talk about getting help for these people, but the help is not the easy hand out many people seem to think it is - and very often the “help” is big factor in keeping them in poverty.
B
BayCityRickL
Guest
You ought to narrow this down, a bit.
Does the Bible blame people for poverty? In other words, are you looking for an answer in sacred scripture? Are you trying to distinguish between “good” poor and “bad” poor? Do you have reason to believe that there is any difference?
Does scripture condemn poverty? Or, does it promote or recommend poverty? Or, what does scripture commend about poor people?
D
dafalax
Guest
It doesn’t matter what makes poor people poor. Jesus said the poor would always be with us and told us to help them. He didn’t say figure out why they were poor and whether or not they deserved help. People make bad decisions that sink their lives. God doesn’t ask us to keep beating them over the head with it. Margaret Sanger tried to figure out what made poor people poor and she decided it was that they had too many children. And look at how birth control and abortion have cut down on the poverty rate.
This question is rather like asking why are people angry. Lots of reasons. Doesn’t matter. Help them.
This question is rather like asking why are people angry. Lots of reasons. Doesn’t matter. Help them.
P
Philip_P
Guest
People, in general, make stupid decisions. If you are poor and make a stupid decision, though, the consequences are much greater than if you are rich. If you are poor and get hooked on drugs, who is going to pay for your rehab? Who’s even around to encourage you to go to rehab? If you grow up in a neighborhood were everyone else drops out of high school, how likely are you to stick with it? How about out-of-wedlock births—do you really think rich kids have less sex, or do you think its more likely that they don’t get/stay pregnant (and think about the morality of THAT for a second).
If you’re poor, the odds are stacked against you. I think we as a society have a duty to even those odds, to create a world where it is easier to be good.
D
D_Quintero
Guest
Many people who live in poverty are in third world countries. Many of these countries have humongous debts that they owe to other countries. These debts often take the money that could be used for food and other needed supplies.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
granted poverty in this country sometimes means something different than poverty in a third world country. Here there are many circumstances that conspire to work against the poor.
a survey I believ by Consumers Report a few years ago looked at families in poverty, and found the number one reason for their situation was a health-care issue, and deduced many or most American families are one paycheck away from poverty. An illness or accident that results in loss of job, including loss of paycheck and medical benefits, sets the stage for a downward spiral into real poverty.
Also for many of the working poor, although they make enough for basic needs, do not have any kind of a cushion in savings, and do not have any or adequate health care benefits, so what may be a routine medical situation for some becomes a disaster for many.
but other things conspire to make living more expensive for the poor:
supermarkets and other stores in depressed areas often carry more limited items at higher prices.
lack of public transportation creates difficulty in getting to jobs, stores, doctor etc. for those without cars.
the cost of maintaining and running and older car is higher than for a new car
someone without a car, without a freezer or other appliances, or with a limited income often cannot take advantage of buying habits that save money for others: buying in bulk, taking advantage of sales, preparing food from scratch etc.
housing is often more expensive to obtain and to maintain in depressed areas
in many cities low-income housing disappears as colleges, medical centers etc. expand and destroy existing low-income neighborhoods.
limited health care benefits make it possible to get a diagnosis for an illness, but not to afford what is required for long term care, especially for chronic conditions such as diabetes, asthma that can have dire consequences: can’t afford the medication, can’t get transport to therapy, follow-up care etc., can’t afford or obtain special diet etc.
without a car, a doctor’s office visit for a sick child can mean an entire day off work, which for the poorer workers usually means no income for that day, or even threatened loss of a job.
I believe illiteracy and language issues also keep people from better jobs, somebody posted here a couple of days ago a link to a story that said 11-20% of American adults are illiterate.
OP illustrates an attitude that sometimes drives our approaches to poverty issues: that if we can identify one underlying cause, find a remedy, poverty will disappear. That has often failed in practice.
i.e., get these women job training so they can get off welfare.
She completes the training, gets hired, laid off 3 months later.
she completes the training, gets a job, but cost of transportation and child care makes her net income less than the family had on welfare
she gets the job, but healthcare benefits are inadequate and she can’t care for a chronically ill child properly, so healthcare costs escalate, she goes into deep debt, etc.
the cause is illiteracy so we will teach her to read:
she learns to read but can’t get hired because of other issues.
she learns to read, but needs more education, which she cannot afford, and because she is now working, does not qualify for any aid
a survey I believ by Consumers Report a few years ago looked at families in poverty, and found the number one reason for their situation was a health-care issue, and deduced many or most American families are one paycheck away from poverty. An illness or accident that results in loss of job, including loss of paycheck and medical benefits, sets the stage for a downward spiral into real poverty.
Also for many of the working poor, although they make enough for basic needs, do not have any kind of a cushion in savings, and do not have any or adequate health care benefits, so what may be a routine medical situation for some becomes a disaster for many.
but other things conspire to make living more expensive for the poor:
supermarkets and other stores in depressed areas often carry more limited items at higher prices.
lack of public transportation creates difficulty in getting to jobs, stores, doctor etc. for those without cars.
the cost of maintaining and running and older car is higher than for a new car
someone without a car, without a freezer or other appliances, or with a limited income often cannot take advantage of buying habits that save money for others: buying in bulk, taking advantage of sales, preparing food from scratch etc.
housing is often more expensive to obtain and to maintain in depressed areas
in many cities low-income housing disappears as colleges, medical centers etc. expand and destroy existing low-income neighborhoods.
limited health care benefits make it possible to get a diagnosis for an illness, but not to afford what is required for long term care, especially for chronic conditions such as diabetes, asthma that can have dire consequences: can’t afford the medication, can’t get transport to therapy, follow-up care etc., can’t afford or obtain special diet etc.
without a car, a doctor’s office visit for a sick child can mean an entire day off work, which for the poorer workers usually means no income for that day, or even threatened loss of a job.
I believe illiteracy and language issues also keep people from better jobs, somebody posted here a couple of days ago a link to a story that said 11-20% of American adults are illiterate.
OP illustrates an attitude that sometimes drives our approaches to poverty issues: that if we can identify one underlying cause, find a remedy, poverty will disappear. That has often failed in practice.
i.e., get these women job training so they can get off welfare.
She completes the training, gets hired, laid off 3 months later.
she completes the training, gets a job, but cost of transportation and child care makes her net income less than the family had on welfare
she gets the job, but healthcare benefits are inadequate and she can’t care for a chronically ill child properly, so healthcare costs escalate, she goes into deep debt, etc.
the cause is illiteracy so we will teach her to read:
she learns to read but can’t get hired because of other issues.
she learns to read, but needs more education, which she cannot afford, and because she is now working, does not qualify for any aid
C
contemplative
Guest
I currently reading Live Well, Die Holy by St. Robert Bellarmine.
from
Chapter 9 Give generously of the gifts God has given you
The passages from the Fathers are chiefly these: St. Basil, in his sermon to the rich, thus speaks, “And thou, art thou not a robber, because what thou hast received to be given away, thou supposest to be thy own.?” And a little further, he continues, “Wherefore, as much as thou art able to give, so much dost thou injure the poor.” And St. Ambrose, in his eighty-first sermon, says that it is no more a crime to steal than it is not to give to the poor out of your abundance.
St. Jerome thus writes in his letter to Hedibia: “If you possess more than is necessary for your subsistence, give it away, and thus you will be a creditor.” St. John Chrysotom says, in his thirty-fourth, homily, to the people of Antioch: “Do you possess anything of your own? The interest of the poor is entrusted to you, whether the estate is yours by your own just labors, or you have acquired it by inheritance.” St. Augustine, in his tract on Psalm 147: “Our superfluous wealth belongs to the poor; when it is not given to them, we possess what we have no right to retain.” St. Leo thus speaks: “Temporal goods are given to us by the liberality of God, and He will demand an account of them, for they were committed to us for disposal as well as possession.”
And St. Gregory, in the third part of his Pastoral Care: “Those are to be admonished who, whilst they desire not the goods of others, do not distribute their own;…so they may carefully remember that as the common origin of all men is from the earth, so also its produce is common to them all: in vain, then, they think themselves innocent who appropriate to themselves the common gifts of God.” St. Bernard, in his letter to Henry, Archbishop of Sens, says, “It is ours, for the poor cry out for what you squander; you cruelly take away from us what you spend foolishly.” St. Thomas also writes, “The superfluous riches which many possess, by the natural law belong to the support of the poor”; and again: “The Lord requires us to give to the poor not only the tenth part, but all of our superfluous wealth.”
from
Chapter 9 Give generously of the gifts God has given you
The passages from the Fathers are chiefly these: St. Basil, in his sermon to the rich, thus speaks, “And thou, art thou not a robber, because what thou hast received to be given away, thou supposest to be thy own.?” And a little further, he continues, “Wherefore, as much as thou art able to give, so much dost thou injure the poor.” And St. Ambrose, in his eighty-first sermon, says that it is no more a crime to steal than it is not to give to the poor out of your abundance.
St. Jerome thus writes in his letter to Hedibia: “If you possess more than is necessary for your subsistence, give it away, and thus you will be a creditor.” St. John Chrysotom says, in his thirty-fourth, homily, to the people of Antioch: “Do you possess anything of your own? The interest of the poor is entrusted to you, whether the estate is yours by your own just labors, or you have acquired it by inheritance.” St. Augustine, in his tract on Psalm 147: “Our superfluous wealth belongs to the poor; when it is not given to them, we possess what we have no right to retain.” St. Leo thus speaks: “Temporal goods are given to us by the liberality of God, and He will demand an account of them, for they were committed to us for disposal as well as possession.”
And St. Gregory, in the third part of his Pastoral Care: “Those are to be admonished who, whilst they desire not the goods of others, do not distribute their own;…so they may carefully remember that as the common origin of all men is from the earth, so also its produce is common to them all: in vain, then, they think themselves innocent who appropriate to themselves the common gifts of God.” St. Bernard, in his letter to Henry, Archbishop of Sens, says, “It is ours, for the poor cry out for what you squander; you cruelly take away from us what you spend foolishly.” St. Thomas also writes, “The superfluous riches which many possess, by the natural law belong to the support of the poor”; and again: “The Lord requires us to give to the poor not only the tenth part, but all of our superfluous wealth.”
G
goofyjim
Guest
Margaret Sanger had no interest in helping the poor. She just wanted to eliminate them as much of her followers do now. For example, want fewer babies with Down syndrome-abort them. I don’t think this is compassion.
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