power given to priests

[mpjw2]

hi twopekinguys, you brought up another good point

Many Catholics have their favorite priest to go to for confession. If I were to go to my confessor every week and tell him I am living in sin with a woman, and having sex outside of marriage. He may absolve me once or twice, but there will come a time when he will not absolve me, and **he shouldn’t. **

agree

If I am repeating the same sin over and over, he is going to come to the conclusion that I am not remorseful no matter how I may “sound” in the confessional.

I also agree with you here

now we get into my concern in the OP and it falls in line with the limitations of power guyonthestreet braught up …

but I could not think of a good illustration.

which you just did…thank you.

consider the same scenario if you do not mind with a liitle more detail added…

what if, in your heart, you knew that the fifth time you slept with the other woman was your last, you broke the relationship, she moved out of state…you poured your remorseful heart out to the priest in confession, (by the way I realize this is just an illustration and you are not admitting to being an adulterer), but somehow the priest did not absolve you because he came to the, as you said…

conclusion that I am not remorseful no matter how I may “sound” in the confessional

lets take it one step further

You are now leaving the confessional with a unforgiven mortal sin still on your soul

Now what do you believe you would do?

in due respect, walk to to the next confessional where a priest would here your confession for the first time is not an option

thank you and God bless

mpjw

 

[StillWondering]

You are now leaving the confessional with a unforgiven mortal sin still on your soul

Now what do you believe you would do?

While there are some unscrupulous people that “shop” around for a confessor that agrees with them. They cannot “shop” around for a God to agree with them. There is only one God and if anyone had a faulty confession they will have to face God in the end. That’s my understanding.

As for a sin you think you should be forgiven but is not. Well, that “thinking” is itself a sin if it is not just. And hardly are we **just **when forgiving ourselves. Now if we are just, we can fine books and readings, particularly from the Magisterium, that shows that priest does not understand what our sin is and we need another confessor. Hopefully a mistaken priest will learn or a bishop will guild the mistaken priest. If there is no particular reason to doubt the priest and *most *of the time there is no reason, then it is our obligation to reevaluate ourselves and find out where we went wrong.

If at any time a priest does not forgive us and we simply did not fully look into our selves and the priest’s theological understanding, then we are committing the sin of thinking we are better then the Church that Christ created. Leaving this Church because of a priests is even more harmful for our souls (forget about the priest, our soul is too important to worry about little things). We are here as Catholics so that we can follow Christ – the end and beginning of our story.

I do not know the sins or faults or mistakes of others. I just know that confession is very important to living in Christ. I am not saying that non-Catholics will not be saved. I am saying I know humans and humans are not all saints. The Church is here not for us to simply be members, but to help us be within the flock with Christ as the shepherd.

---

As for the rock scene, confessing it now many years later will work as well if we can truly let go of the past, repent for whatever sin it was, and intend not to do so again. At that moment in the past though, if I could be a talking fly on the wall and not sin for hearing a confession, I would tell the penitent to ask the priest what God would have him/her do to fully be contrite. If a priest can forgive serious sins such as adultery when there is true contrition, he can definitely forgive a thrown rock. It is up to the penitent to find out why he/she was not forgiven and what can he/she do to rectify it.

Personally if I am sinning and think I have changed but in reality have not, I will be glad for a priest to teach me instead of leading me to believe I’m in God’s graces when I am not! It’s better to die in God’s hands after challenging myself then to die with smile on my face and a ticket to Hell.

 

[mpjw2]

While there are some unscrupulous people that “shop” around for a confessor that agrees with them. They cannot “shop” around for a God to agree with them. There is only one God and if anyone had a faulty confession they will have to face God in the end. That’s my understanding.

As for a sin you think you should be forgiven but is not. Well, that “thinking” is itself a sin if it is not just. And hardly are we **just **when forgiving ourselves. Now if we are just, we can fine books and readings, particularly from the Magisterium, that shows that priest does not understand what our sin is and we need another confessor. Hopefully a mistaken priest will learn or a bishop will guild the mistaken priest. If there is no particular reason to doubt the priest and *most *of the time there is no reason, then it is our obligation to reevaluate ourselves and find out where we went wrong.

If at any time a priest does not forgive us and we simply did not fully look into our selves and the priest’s theological understanding, then we are committing the sin of thinking we are better then the Church that Christ created. Leaving this Church because of a priests is even more harmful for our souls (forget about the priest, our soul is too important to worry about little things). We are here as Catholics so that we can follow Christ – the end and beginning of our story.

I do not know the sins or faults or mistakes of others. I just know that confession is very important to living in Christ. I am not saying that non-Catholics will not be saved. I am saying I know humans and humans are not all saints. The Church is here not for us to simply be members, but to help us be within the flock with Christ as the shepherd. .

thank you still wondering
good answer and I agree with all you are saying …but

the point is if one new from the bottom of there heart how sorry they were they sinned that it would be the last, whether it was the 1st time confessed or the 10th time, they were denied absolution by the priest, what then?

they still have an unforgiven mortal sin on there soul which the priest did not absolve.

If this happened to me, I would immediately go to the altar and pour my heart out directly to God right at the altar. I would not leave God’s house with sin on my soul.
I would trust God that He knew how sincere I was in my confession.
I would have the faith and trust that the precious blood Jesus shed on the cross would forgive me of that sin

Then if God forbid, I died immediately after confessing, I will face God without that sin on my soul

Thank you and God bless

mpjw

 

[twopekinguys]

hi twopekinguys, you brought up another good point

I also agree with you here

now we get into my concern in the OP and it falls in line with the limitations of power guyonthestreet braught up …

but I could not think of a good illustration.

which you just did…thank you.

consider the same scenario if you do not mind with a liitle more detail added…

what if, in your heart, you knew that the fifth time you slept with the other woman was your last, you broke the relationship, she moved out of state…you poured your remorseful heart out to the priest in confession, (by the way I realize this is just an illustration and you are not admitting to being an adulterer), but somehow the priest did not absolve you because he came to the, as you said…

lets take it one step further

You are now leaving the confessional with a unforgiven mortal sin still on your soul

Now what do you believe you would do?

in due respect, walk to to the next confessional where a priest would here your confession for the first time is not an option

thank you and God bless

mpjw

Let me preface my answer with something first.

If I read correctly, you were a practicing Catholic at a younger age, but are not now. Is that correct?

If it is, something you many not be aware of is that confession contains alot more conversation now than just confessing 1 sin of this nature, 2 of that nature, and so on. You can also receive this sacrament face to face.

Given the additions to the scenario. If I was at my regular confessor, I’m sure there would be a dialog about the adulterous relationship, if it ended, etc. If I did in fact end the affair, and the priest (acting in the place of Christ) still refused to absolve me, I would ask him why, and ask what it would take. Again, there is a lot of dialoge in confession these days.

Now, as far as going to another priest, that isn’t familiar with me and my situation, that is always a possibility. But I would be deciving him, myself, and God. Even though that priest may say the words of absolution, to me, it wouldn’t be valid, as I was just trying to pull a fast one.

To anyone that may be tuning in late, and not read the entire thread…I am not in an adulterous affair…lol

 

[twopekinguys]

By the way, there is a really good discussion on face to face confession on the liturgy and sacrament threads.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=370781&page=5

 

[Evan]

It is not just repentance that is required but a desire to reform your life. Another example I have heard used is someone comes and confesses extramarital sexual relations, BUT the one confessing has a means of support, lives with that person, intends to continue living together, and to continue having relations.

There may be a feeling of contrition, a feeling of sorrow, a feeling of regret, but there is no intention to avoid the sin in the future.

 

[PJM]

=mpjw2-]Hi all and PJM (I hope you see this),

PJM made the following statement in another thread. Unfortunately it got closed.

To make sure I understand what PJM is saying, do catholics believe that if I go into confession in a catholic church and confess a number of sins, the priest has the power, given by Christ, to make a decision NOT to give me absolution for one of the sins should the priest be led to do so?

If this is true then I would go to the altar, say my penance and get up from the altar knowing all my sins have been forgiven but the “one sin” the priest refused to give me absolution for.

Then when leaving the church while stepping off the curb to cross the street, a car goes out of control hits me and instantly kills me.

I would then be facing God with a major sin on my soul that the priest did not offer me absolution for in confession no more than 15 minutes ago.

Am I wrong in my understand of catholic belief here?

Please correct me if I am wrong

God bless you for all your help

***Hi, God lead me to your post

First I must point out that Catholic Sacraments are for the most part “Catholic” Sacraments, meaning that they are intended only for Catholics. Christian Baptism
of Water and the Trinity, and possibly Marriage being the exceptions. So as not to get off track I will only respond to your stated concerns.

The short answer is YES a priest does have the Power to refuse Absolution. However such power is NOT arbitary and is VERY Seldom exercised.

This is because it is Jesus, NOT the Priest who forgives your sins! The role of the Priest is to confirm a sincere Contrition and sorrow, and to comfort us in the certainty and knowledge that God has forgiven us. [Mt. 16:19 and 18:18] Because its possible to “fool the preist” BUT NOT to fool God who actually does the forgiving, the Priest will always error on the side of trusting the person Confessing sencere sorrow, knowing that God si the Final Judge.

Having said that. if your Confession is Complete, sorrow is real and Albolution is granted and Penance id performed, God WILL NEVER orveride the Priestly absolution. Thus we KNOw, we don’t have to guess if we are forgiven

If the extremely unlikely case that a priest error [they are guided by the HS] God who is and must be fair and just, will not hold it ahainst you.***

For those who may not have seen my other post. The Bible verses in “play” are:

Mt. 16:19, Mt. 19:16. 1 Jn.1: 8-10, 1 Jn. 5’16-17, John 20: 22-23, Mt. 18:18.

Love and prayers,

 

[DOShea]

the point is if one new from the bottom of there heart how sorry they were they sinned that it would be the last, whether it was the 1st time confessed or the 10th time, they were denied absolution by the priest, what then?

they still have an unforgiven mortal sin on there soul which the priest did not absolve.

The missing piece in all these scenarios is what the priest says. I have never ever heard of a priest who refused and absolve and also refused to say why. I can’t even conceive of that happening, and if it did I would go find another priest to hear my confession and pray for the first priest.

The way some of these scenarios are posed it’s as though the priest is making an arbitrary decision to refuse to absolve. It is very serious business doing that, and I’m sure every priest who would do that understands the potential for that being the last day that soul will ever set foot in a Catholic Church for the rest of their life. I’ve never met a priest that would be so callous with anyone’s immortal soul, though I have met and known many who, like every one of us, is imperfect in some way. Never one callous in that way.

Priests have voices and aren’t back there flipping a coin. If they sense some problem with understanding the error of sin or wonder about your contriteness, they will try to help you view it from the correct perspective. Priests help you with your confession, not try to hold you up against a perfect confession standard and slam the door shut if you don’t have all your 'i’s dotted and "t"s crossed. They help you dot and cross them.

For most people, contriteness is a good part of what brings them to that confessional in the first place. But the most important part is the contriteness you leave with, not the one you bring there. That’s part of the priest’s job, to help you have the right perspective to give you a better chance to beat temptation the next time you run into it.

More than once I have gone in the confessional thinking this should be “an easy one” and came out of there with my head spinning. Not that the priest was unkind or not compassionate in any way, far from it, but what he said to me made me consider my failings in ways I had not thought of before. I am eternally grateful for those times, as they helped me to grow, and didn’t really hurt me at all.

So please consider that aspect of the Sacrament also. I think it goes a ways toward demonstrating how… unusual, for lack of a better term, some of the posed scenarios are.

 

[mpjw2]

So please consider that aspect of the Sacrament also. I think it goes a ways toward demonstrating how… unusual, for lack of a better term, some of the posed scenarios are.

Hi DOShea

I first want to apologize for being a little overdramatic in my scenario, I was trying to get to a point, I might of went at it the wrong way.

As a former catholic I certainly know the value of the sacrament of reconciliation.

I want to thank you all for your responses God bless

It has been a long time since I was in confession with a priest. I never engaged a long conversation with the priest. At least I do not remember

However, it is clear to me that catholics do not believe it is the priest who does the actual forgiveness of sins

believe it or not that was my belief as a youngster

From your response that a priest is not the one who actually forgives sins,

how then do you view a non catholic christian like myself who prays to God directly for forgiveness and also has an accountability partner, who in a way would have the same role as a steady priest to go to, they can trust?

Do you believe all the sins I confess to God directly, with the same contrite, remorseful, repentent heart I would if I were a practcing catholic be forgiven?

thank you and God bless

 

[PJM]

=mpjw2

Hi DOShea

I first want to apologize for being a little overdramatic in my scenario, I was trying to get to a point, I might of went at it the wrong way.

As a former catholic I certainly know the value of the sacrament of reconciliation.

I want to thank you all for your responses God bless

It has been a long time since I was in confession with a priest. I never engaged a long conversation with the priest. At least I do not remember

However, it is clear to me that catholics do not believe it is the priest who does the actual forgiveness of sins

believe it or not that was my belief as a youngster

From your response that a priest is not the one who actually forgives sins,

how then do you view a non catholic christian like myself who prays to God directly for forgiveness and also has an accountability partner, who in a way would have the same role as a steady priest to go to, they can trust?

Do you believe all the sins I confess to God directly, with the same contrite, remorseful, repentent heart I would if I were a practcing catholic be forgiven?

thank you and God bless

***Great question.

And the answer is we [neither you nor me can know with certitude] for the following reasons.

It clearly is not the way intended and specified by God Himself in His “instruction manual” that we call His Bible.

On the other hand, God desires salvation for everyone, and God being “God” must be and has to be “fair and just.” So God will read your heart.

But only in the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation can one be absolutely sure that God has forgiven us! That is one of the VERY GOOD reason to be an inforned, practicing Catholic.***

A previous post posed the question of being unable to make the normal [and necessary] restituation for past sin. The priest would grant Absolution, and likely give as Pennance either a nominal restituation [say a $1.00 a week] or extra prayers for the damaged party.

Absolution would only be denied if the preist were VERY confident of insincere Contrition. Extremely unlikely!

Love and prayers,

 

[mpjw2]

***Great question.

And the answer is we [neither you nor me can know with certitude] for the following reasons.

It clearly is not the way intended and specified by God Himself in His “instruction manual” that we call His Bible.

On the other hand, God desires salvation for everyone, and God being “God” must be and has to be “fair and just.” So God will read your heart.

But only in the Catholic Sacrament of Reconciliation can one be absolutely sure that God has forgiven us! That is one of the VERY GOOD reason to be an inforned, practicing Catholic.***

A previous post posed the question of being unable to make the normal [and necessary] restituation for past sin. The priest would grant Absolution, and likely give as Pennance either a nominal restituation [say a $1.00 a week] or extra prayers for the damaged party.

Absolution would only be denied if the preist were VERY confident of insincere Contrition. Extremely unlikely!

Love and prayers,

thank you PJM for responding we are so so so close to seeing eye to eye.

I wanted too ask you a followup question but the answer would take the thread off topic.

I did copy the part of your response which I wanted to inquire to my
“is heaven or hell awaiting me? pt2” thread

I hope to see you there

God bless…

Thank you for your prayers

I am praying God keeps you strong and faithful

 

[DOShea]

Hi DOShea

I first want to apologize for being a little overdramatic in my scenario, I was trying to get to a point, I might of went at it the wrong way.

No apology necessary, this is a friendly discussion. I try to take into consideration there are others who are not Catholic reading this and may be confused at the level of “drama” posed, so I was trying to answer your questions while sort of posing what I thought was a more realistic, everyday scenario. None of that changes the validity of your questions, which are good ones.

It has been a long time since I was in confession with a priest. I never engaged a long conversation with the priest. At least I do not remember

Some I know are afraid to talk to the priest in any way other than reciting a list of sins for whatever reason, perhaps because most of what you read about and what most have been taught about it is just the basic formula, i.e- the “how it’s done” aspect. As for me, one of the things that makes this Sacrament more real to me is that I can ask the priest for clarification if I’m confused about something, or feel I need another perspective besides my own on some failing. I didn’t know this early on; I was one of the rote-reciting-and-nothing-else types for a long time.

One day many years ago I did a face-to-face confession, something I dreaded would be the most embarrassing thing I could imagine, but it turned out to open a whole new universe of understanding for me. It was the first time I ever really experienced Reconciliation in a dialogue kind of way. Now in addition to absolution and grace, I look forward to the times I can learn more about how or why I fail as I do, each additional tidbit helping me in some way.

However, it is clear to me that Catholics do not believe it is the priest who does the actual forgiveness of sins.

No one believes a priest does the actual forgiving. Everyone believes God does the forgiving.

how then do you view a non catholic christian like myself who prays to God directly for forgiveness and also has an accountability partner, who in a way would have the same role as a steady priest to go to, they can trust?

How do I view it? Well I view the desire to repent of sin better than no repentance at all, and I hope that God recognizes your repentance. But I don’t agree that your accountability partner would have the same role as a priest. This is why, if you read any Catholic Church bulletin, you will never see the Sacrament of Reconciliation offered at Joe’s house on some day of the week at a given time. Joe might be good with tools and might have made his own confessional; he might have bought a stole and a set of clerics on eBay; but what he doesn’t have is the authority from God, granted Sacramentally, to act in His stead and provide His absolution of sins.

Do you believe all the sins I confess to God directly, with the same contrite, remorseful, repentent heart I would if I were a practcing catholic be forgiven?
thank you and God bless

My answer is “I do not know,” because the question asks me to know the mind of God, and I have trouble enough knowing my own. What I do know is that the faith I believe teaches some things about it. One, salvation is a grace-driven, and the source of that grace for those who have fallen out if it is through the Sacraments. Doing it outside of a Sacramental confession would confer no grace, and under those circumstances there would be no salvation as the result. However we also acknowledge that God’s love and mercy have no bounds. His giving of grace is not bound by our Sacraments, meaning He could absolve you and grant you grace. The difference is, we are assured of it via the Sacrament, and not assured of it any other way.

If I go to a train station and I want to go from NY to St. Louis, I can find a train that will be advertised as “the” train to St. Louis. If I get on that train, I KNOW I’m going to St. Louis. Now I could also jump on any train I see and HOPE I get to St. Louis, and probably some people could do so and end up there. But they could equally end up in Dallas, Phoenix, or San Francisco. So what is the best approach to take if I want to be prudent about my travel plans?

 

[PJM]

=hank you PJM for responding we are so so so close to seeing eye to eye.

I wanted too ask you a followup question but the answer would take the thread off topic.

I did copy the part of your response which I wanted to inquire to my
“is heaven or hell awaiting me? pt2” thread

I hope to see you there

God bless…

Thank you for your prayers

I am praying God keeps you strong and faithful

***Your welcome,

I’ll look for it.

Love and prayers.

Pat***

 

[StillWondering]

thank you still wondering
good answer and I agree with all you are saying …but

the point is if one new from the bottom of there heart how sorry they were they sinned that it would be the last, whether it was the 1st time confessed or the 10th time, they were denied absolution by the priest, what then?

they still have an unforgiven mortal sin on there soul which the priest did not absolve.

If this happened to me, I would immediately go to the altar and pour my heart out directly to God right at the altar. I would not leave God’s house with sin on my soul.
I would trust God that He knew how sincere I was in my confession.
I would have the faith and trust that the precious blood Jesus shed on the cross would forgive me of that sin

Then if God forbid, I died immediately after confessing, I will face God without that sin on my soul

Thank you and God bless

mpjw

I may have directly answered this in a previous post or just in my mind without writing it down. My answer is based on the spirit of a faithful Catholic who both trusts the authority of the Church as being from Christ so would flow from Christs teaching as well as understanding that I am a sinner whether I am in grace at any moment of my life.

Given that context, what I would do is then ask the priest “why”. I would tell the priest I am truly sorry and have confessed. If the priest explains that it is because what I did could cause harm. I would ask why does causing harm prevent me from having a complete confession. He may say that it is because I must now go repair that situation first then confess then I would go do so. This would lead from the fact that a branch connected to the vine would bare fruit as opposed to a pruned away branch. By being connected and required to repair the situation, the only logical action would be to repair as the priest says and return to confession.

If on the other hand the priest does not tell me what I need to do for confession, I would conclude that the priest is not spiritually guiding me. This is one of the roles of the confessor. Thus by my understanding of Catholic teaching and the norms of the confession, it is my duty to go to a different priest to confess if one is available. If one is not, I would need to wait till another confession or confront the priest that he is not performing his pastoral role. If I am young and do not know better, then I am not responsible to do all this. When I am responsible later in life that I know and am capable of going to confession again is to do so. Confessing the sins I have committed as best as I can since my last confession (if it is a long time then probably a general confession with the explicit statement of about how long ago was my previous confession). And within this confession, also explain this situation with the priest and mention the original sin in question for that to be absolved as needed as well.

I think this covers every possible avenue including maintaining full communion with Christ or returning to full communion with Christ. It is never to late while we are yet alive to fix mistakes and/or be with Christ is a full and sacramental way.

Important Edit: I should put out that I am coming form an experience where in confession I talk to the priest. I mean I talk from my heart. I just realized reading the other posts that maybe this is not always the case with others. Whether the priest wants me to or not, the only way I know how to confess after properly admitting to the priest and God that I fully acknowledge myself to be a sinner. That I am sorrowful. That I still doubt my own ability to discern sins. And as best as I can tell my previous confession. The rest of the conversion or even these parts are all in conversation. Thus I automatically would ask why or tell the priest I do not understand if needed. I never had any other type of confession and I hope everyone who goes to confession will be able to honestly have a dialogue with their priest, whether its the first time or the hundredth time.

 

[PJM]

Originally Posted by mpjw2
thank you still wondering
good answer and I agree with all you are saying …but

the point is if one new from the bottom of there heart how sorry they were they sinned that it would be the last, whether it was the 1st time confessed or the 10th time, they were denied absolution by the priest, what then?

they still have an unforgiven mortal sin on there soul which the priest did not absolve.

If this happened to me, I would immediately go to the altar and pour my heart out directly to God right at the altar. I would not leave God’s house with sin on my soul.
I would trust God that He knew how sincere I was in my confession.
I would have the faith and trust that the precious blood Jesus shed on the cross would forgive me of that sin

Then if God forbid, I died immediately after confessing, I will face God without that sin on my soul

Thank you and God bless

mpjw

***My dear freind in Christ,

Allow me once again to be clear. You asked “can” a Priest refuse Absolution, and the answer is yes. If one were to rephrase the question to: How often will this occour? The answer would be about as often as “hen have teeth” It’s not impossible, BUT it is extremely rare, and I suspect the SUPER majority of Priest never, ever have done so.

The reason for this is that it is God who forgives ones sins, not the priest. So if your insincere, dilbertly lie our leave out Mortal sins you know you have not confessed, even if the priest grants Absolution and you do the Pennance, you must still deal with God, who knows all. The priest will always error in your favor, unless he has proof positive that your repentance is not sincere.***

On the other hand, God honors the decision of the priest, if you forget to confess a sin, or get the number of times committed accidently wrong. God is and must be fair and just.

So please, no more what if’'s. These are the standards. If I am unclear please request a clairification. God and the priest are both on your side, if given the opportunity.

Love and prayers,