Powerful evidence for Design?

  • Thread starter Thread starter tonyrey
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
That I have, and you have, subjective experiences is itself an “objective” fact. And philosophy includes ways of discerning that claim that there is only subject/Subject. And I do not practice a religion. In any case, I wish you well as well. Nice chatting with you 🙂 Thanks.
You would still have the opportunity to discuss your ideas about God. Or perhaps you could start a thread on this forum. 🙂
 
You would still have the opportunity to discuss your ideas about God. Or perhaps you could start a thread on this forum.
If you do so it may be transferred to another forum depending on how your question is phrased… 😉
 
You would still have the opportunity to discuss your ideas about God. Or perhaps you could start a thread on this forum. 🙂
Thank you for your good intentions! 🙂

Discussing ideas “about” God is what religionists do. I’m not a religionist, and I’m only trying to point to an experience which is attainable and is at the root of religion and what religion is necessarily an intellectual abstraction of. Wthout that experience, there can only be “discussion” about ideas about God. With that experience, there can be exegiesis that can point for others a way to see something ineffable and fundamental. That would more properly belong in, I think, the philosoapy section, as that line of activity is usally called “philosophy,” that word deriving from linguistic and experiential roots meaning “love of wisdom.”
 
Thank you for your good intentions! 🙂

Discussing ideas “about” God is what religionists do. I’m not a religionist, and I’m only trying to point to an experience which is attainable and is at the root of religion and what religion is necessarily an intellectual abstraction of. Wthout that experience, there can only be “discussion” about ideas about God. With that experience, there can be exegiesis that can point for others a way to see something ineffable and fundamental. That would more properly belong in, I think, the philosoapy section, as that line of activity is usally called “philosophy,” that word deriving from linguistic and experiential roots meaning “love of wisdom.”
In my opinion the discussion of experiences which transcend “intellectual abstraction” comes into the category of spirituality rather than philosophy. The only way to find out the moderators’ view is to start a thread on the subject!
 
  1. We can be certain of nothing except our uncertainty!
  2. Our certainty is not based on certainty about the material world.
  3. Our certainty is based on our power of reason.
  4. Our certainty is also based on the principle of contradiction.
  5. All knowledge consists of thoughts based on logical principles.
  6. Logical principles cannot exist by Chance.
  7. Therefore knowledge and logical principles are evidence of Design!
 
In my opinion the discussion of experiences which transcend “intellectual abstraction” comes into the category of spirituality rather than philosophy. The only way to find out the moderators’ view is to start a thread on the subject!
OK, so there is no spiritual aspect to design. Glad we are clear on that. Thanks.
 
Claims to privileged spiritual enlightenment are irrelevant in a philosophical discussion of Design.
There have been none made that I can see. If several people each are offered a glass of water, and some refuse, are the ones who took theirs and drank privileged?
 
There have been none made that I can see. If several people each are offered a glass of water, and some refuse, are the ones who took theirs and drank privileged?
Yes! If they are thirsty, appreciate the offer and choose to accept it gratefully…

The point is that the onus is on those who claim to be spiritually enlightened to prove they have superior knowledge and insight.
 
i wish i could understand this thread. it looks good.:o:confused:
If there are specific points you don’t understand they can be clarified. Don’t hesitate to ask. 🙂

I admit my recent post about certainty was rather recondite and abstract!
 
The early Greek philosophers were preoccupied with the nature of reality. They reached two diametrically opposed solutions: the Many and the One. Leucippus and Democritus derived everything from atoms while Parmenides and Plato attributed everything to one Mind.

The same bipolarity was present in religion. Animism was widespread at the outset but then polytheism became dominant until it was realised monotheism is more rational. The Jews were inspired in their realisation that everything is contingent and there must be is one Necessary Being: “He Who Is”.

Western philosophy developed on parallel lines eventually leading to the phenomenalism of David Hume who reduced the mind to a “bundle of perceptions” and Bishop Berkeley’s “idealism” which regards the mind as the primary reality: “esse est percipi”, (to be is to be perceived). Today these two extremes are represented by materialism and theism. The first is summed up by the title of Jacques Monod’s book “Chance and Necessity” and Richard Dawkins’s “The Blind Watchmaker”. The second is encapsulated in one word: “God” - although - unlike Berkeley - theists recognise the reality of the material world.

Materialism faces formidable difficulties even from a scientific point of view. The first observable phenomenon in the history of the universe is the Big Bang, a singularity. No one has ever explained why this event led to multiplicity and complexity: “one” became “many” for no apparent reason. Not only that. That one event has led to progressive development which has culminated in the existence of billions of autonomous, purposeful, rational beings.

The fatal flaw in atomism is its inability to explain the existence of **complex entities **and how they became integrated. Analysis has to be supplemented by synthesis. There must be reasons why unity and harmony exist in a universe of disparate particles. The whole is not simply the sum of the parts. Modern medicine is concerned not only with physical symptoms but also with the mind. The body cannot be fully understood in terms of biochemical processes because it is deeply influenced by thoughts and emotions.

The fatal flaw in materialism is its obsession with the past and neglect of the future. It is atomistic in its approach to time because it singles out one aspect of reality at the expense of the other. It totally ignores the future as if the future is insignificant. Yet any rational explanation of a process must consider it in its entirety and not just how it began. In fact the outcome is more significant than the initial state. We don’t judge people merely by their intentions but by their actions and consequences. Similarly we don’t understand the machine unless we discover what it produces.

The one essential element that is lacking in the secular interpretation of reality is purpose. Everything is supposed to be heading nowhere in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. Even in the life of one person or animal we can see maturation and fulfilment that cannot be predicted from biological facts. It is absolutely impossible to live as if there is no purpose in existence and that is the acid test of any credible philosophy. Is it consistent with the way persons - not only things - behave?

Materialism is not only theoretically unsound, it is also totally unrealistic. A scientist in a laboratory may be satisfied he has found all the explanations of the human body but he is leaving himself out of the equation! And what is the point of finding explanations if they lead to the conclusion that there are no explanations only causes of explanations? :confused:

“Methinks something is rotten in the state of Denmark!”
 
The fatal flaw in materialism is its obsession with the past and neglect of the future. It is atomistic in its approach to time because it singles out one aspect of reality at the expense of the other. It totally ignores the future as if the future is insignificant. Yet any rational explanation of a process must consider it in its entirety and not just how it began. In fact the outcome is more significant than the initial state.
In the case of the universe it is more accurate to state:

Yet any rational explanation of a process must consider it in its entirety and not just how it appears to have begun. How the universe began to exist is a mystery. We have far more indication of **why **it began to exist in the light of subsequent events!
 
Yes! If they are thirsty, appreciate the offer and choose to accept it gratefully…

The point is that the onus is on those who claim to be spiritually enlightened to prove they have superior knowledge and insight.
Who is it that you percieve as claiming spiritual enlightenment? And what would you take as proof, “Thomas?” Your own preconceptions? If you are talking about me, as I surmise, I am no more “spiritually enlightened” whatever that means, than you or anyone else. I know that. I am only speaking about my experience and its correlation to others who have had essentially the same event or expereince in their lives. And that can’t be “proved” in the sense your logical mind wishes, because it is what is before you have a mind to speak of, or with. It can only be poiinted to, not contained in logics. You have to “prove” it for yourself, as each one of us does, and will.
 
Who is it that you percieve as claiming spiritual enlightenment? And what would you take as proof, “Thomas?” Your own preconceptions? If you are talking about me, as I surmise, I am no more “spiritually enlightened” whatever that means, than you or anyone else.
You have stated you have had a subjective experience which enables you to “see something ineffable and fundamental”:
I’m not a religionist, and I’m only trying to point to an experience which is attainable and is at the root of religion and what religion is necessarily an intellectual abstraction of. Wthout that experience, there can only be “discussion” about ideas about God. With that experience, there can be exegiesis that can point for others a way to see something ineffable and fundamental. I know that. I am only speaking about my experience and its correlation to others who have had essentially the same event or expereince in their lives. And that can’t be “proved” in the sense your logical mind wishes, because it is what is before you have a mind to speak of, or with. It can only be poiinted to, not contained in logics. You have to “prove” it for yourself, as each one of us does, and will.
And that can’t be “proved” in the sense your logical mind wishes, because it is what is before you have a mind to speak of, or with. It can only be poiinted to, not contained in logics. You have to “prove” it for yourself, as each one of us does, and will.
You clearly put subjective experience before** reasons** everyone can understand. If you reject the role of logic philosophy is not the right forum for you.
 
You have stated you have had a subjective experience which enables you to “see something ineffable and fundamental”:

You clearly put subjective experience before** reasons** everyone can understand. If you reject the role of logic philosophy is not the right forum for you.
All that does is put my reasoning on an unshakable experiential premise which I reason from, instead of collecting data and building a hypothetical structure and call it “reality.” And if you, or anyone, did the work, you would understand what that means and you would not be disagreeing with me. You couldn’t. You would see what “you” is, and would be able to start from the Rock and use sand for the fun of building castles. Useful ones. I am not trying to convince you, I’m just pointing out that if you don’t know experientially what I’m talking about, you have no useful means of refuting what it is. There’s your logic.
 
All that does is put my reasoning on an unshakable experiential premise which I reason from, instead of collecting data and building a hypothetical structure and call it “reality.” And if you, or anyone, did the work, you would understand what that means and you would not be disagreeing with me. You couldn’t. You would see what “you” is, and would be able to start from the Rock and use sand for the fun of building castles. Useful ones. I am not trying to convince you, I’m just pointing out that if you don’t know experientially what I’m talking about, you have no useful means of refuting what it is. There’s your logic.
If you have “an unshakable experiential premise” which I lack there is no point in discussing the matter any further.
 
Yes, I read that. It would appear that once again our Church strikes a blow against itself.
I would like to see the date on the Pope’s letter, and the date of the Conference. It may be that the Pope is endorsing the Conference: ‘These things are worth discussing’, not that he is endorsing the results of the conference. I would also like to see precisely what aspects of evolution the Pope s criticising. In the past Papal criticisms of evolution have been far less wide ranging than those of the Kolbe Centre.

There is often a short introduction from the Pope to the plenary sessions of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, whose output often disagrees strongly with the stuff the Kolbe Centre puts out.

I read this mostly as spin from the Kolbe Centre, with not a lot of substance behind it.

rossum
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top