Powerful evidence for Design?

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Multi-functional!
  1. Ay, there’s the rub for the materialist…
  2. There is no obvious reason why there should be anything but chaos.
  3. Order is a luxury not a necessity.
  4. Even with order there is no obvious reason why there should be any functions, let alone multifunctional substances.
  5. Nor is sustained order an inevitable feature of material existence.
  6. Nor is it necessary for the universe to be dynamic rather than static.
  7. Causality could be circular rather than linear.
  8. The universe could be contracting rather than expanding.
  9. There could be nothing at all!
  10. So why does this universe exist in all its richness, beauty and splendour that we can appreciate and understand to a remarkable extent? 😉
Yes. So?

Why should any of this be fixed, when it is enough that this is what we observe? And if your designer exists, what is his/her/its purpose for existing, and why design this universe rather than some other one? For all we know, a designer could just exist, for no purpose. Unless that purpose is/was to design…something. A bit circular and vague, don’t you think?
 
I disagree. We only have the model to analyze, we do not have reality.
If the model doesn’t analyze reality then we know nothing about reality. If the model doesn’t analyze reality, then we cannot observe reality.
If we cannot observe, model or analyze reality – then there is no reason to talk about reality at all.
But we do observe reality (or what we think is reality) and we use models as tools to measure what we observe.
There are many aspects of reality that are not in our model;
Very true. We know this from both the Buddhist and Christian views. But when we model some part of reality, we try to infer conclusions about all of reality. Since it’s not possible for any human being to fully comprehend all of reality (that’s an assumption but is very easily supported with evidence), we have to draw conclusions based on what we can know, even though it is partial.
each of our many models only covers a part of reality. Again, your are confusing the model with reality. The model is not reality.
I think this is a problem with terminology once again and I’m probably saying something that has a different definition than what you’re saying. To the best of our knowledge and experience, we think that some things are deliberately designed for a purpose. We model those things and look for patterns that indicate intention and purpose.
That is the fundamental mistake made in the design argument. Everyone agrees that the models are designed. By mistaking the property of the model for a property of reality so it appears that reality is designed. It isn’t, it is just a property incorrectly transferred from the model.
I could follow you all the way to the last sentence. We don’t know that the property is incorrectly transferred from the model. How would we know that reality does not possess the property that the model indicates? To the best of our knowledge (admittedly it is incomplete and could be inaccurate), we observe aspects of reality that “are modelled” and “appear to have properties”.

When we model the speed of objects falling to the earth, you’re right to say that we’re just looking at models. Actually, even the “data” that we use is a form of a model. Data is not reality. It’s a unit of measurement. Falling rocks or raindrops don’t come labelled with measurements or units that mean data. So, we extract data (human concepts) from reality in order to measure things.
So, you’re right. But all of that said … we still consider mass, weight, volume, density, etc. to be properties of matter. Those properties don’t really exist. They’re just models. But because we can, at least, understand (in human terms) something about reality (or we think we do) by using those human-created models, we can talk about reality and make things in reality based on those properties.

The design argument uses other observations and measurements on aspects of reality to draw some conclusions.
With an infinite number of possible theories to pick from there are always going to be incorrect theories that are very close to giving the correct predictions in many cases.
That’s true. There’s another point here also. With an infinite number of possible theories and possible models, we choose one that matches our assumptions at the beginning.
Some of those assumptions are:
  1. It is possible that something will work.
  2. We will be able to know something about reality by this theory and model.
  3. There is a difference between “something that works” and “something that doesn’t work”.
  4. The reason that we’re measuring things is meaningful, has purpose and value.
  5. Knowledge about reality is a good thing and not evil.
  6. Some things are good and others evil.
  7. We are able to tell the difference between good and evil.
Those are just some of the (faith-based) assumptions imported into the task of choosing a model out of an infinite number of choosing to measure and test anything at all.

This is not at all different than what the Design Argument does. It starts with assumptions and then looks at the evidence.
 
Yep. Succinctly stated. So. Why all the hub bub? Seems rather obvious to me…

Methinks (some) Atheists do not reject God from a strictly intellectual foundation. Rather, from an experiential one of some pain or some such they have endured. Ergo they then rant against God like a child acting out against one’s parents perhaps.🤷
Agreed, Nimzovik. With a little faith in God, many truths become obvious. But some people struggle with some obstacles – which could come from many sources: personal, society and culture, educational or family background.
 
Multi-functional!
  1. Ay, there’s the rub for the materialist…
  2. There is no obvious reason why there should be anything but chaos.
  3. Order is a luxury not a necessity.
  4. Even with order there is no obvious reason why there should be any functions, let alone multifunctional substances.
  5. Nor is sustained order an inevitable feature of material existence.
  6. Nor is it necessary for the universe to be dynamic rather than static.
  7. Causality could be circular rather than linear.
  8. The universe could be contracting rather than expanding.
  9. There could be nothing at all!
  10. So why does this universe exist in all its richness, beauty and splendour that we can appreciate and understand to a remarkable extent? 😉
That is excellent – thanks!

I think one problem people stumble on is that these are not scientific questions. So people will not think about them, or they don’t think that they need to be answered. But they are very important for science and human life itself. The facts lead to the question in point #10. The argument from design offers an answer that is reasonable and consistent with the facts. There is order, complex functionality, dynamism, consistency, linear progress and Being itself because these things come from an intelligent origin, for a purpose and design.
 
Multi-functional! …
4. Even with order there is no obvious reason why there should be any functions, let alone multifunctional substances.
It’s not only that in nature, one substance offers many different functions to support an orderly and consistent process – which is amazing and inexplicable from a purely random origin, but … we humans can use and manipulate the same simple substances for entirely new, incredibly powerful unique functions (transportation, health, communication).

And as stated … there’s no reason why any of these substances should have any function at all, even just on their own, but far less that they work together so well with other independent substances.
 
That is excellent – thanks!

I think one problem people stumble on is that these are not scientific questions. So people will not think about them, or they don’t think that they need to be answered. But they are very important for science and human life itself. The facts lead to the question in point #10. The argument from design offers an answer that is reasonable and consistent with the facts. There is order, complex functionality, dynamism, consistency, linear progress and Being itself because these things come from an intelligent origin, for a purpose and design.
Yes, and most of them are semantically null: incomplete or meaningless.
 
ToneyRey wrote:"

There is another reason. Many find some (or even all) moral laws irksome and prefer to make their own - on the pretext that morality is subjective anyway. The fatal flaw in that view is the criminal’s values are as valid as anyone else’s!

Some sceptics genuinely cannot reconcile suffering with a loving God yet they willingly admit life is immensely valuable. It is obviously more reasonable not to rule out Design when most philosophers concede some suffering is inevitable. How could it possibly be demonstrated that suffering is excessive?

Nimzovik responds:

The first Paragraph is too true.

Please elaborate on the 2nd paragraph.
 
ToneyRey wrote:"
Some sceptics genuinely cannot reconcile suffering with a loving God yet they willingly admit life is immensely valuable. It is obviously more reasonable not to rule out Design when most philosophers concede some suffering is inevitable. How could it possibly be demonstrated that suffering is excessive?

Nimzovik responds:

The first Paragraph is too true.

Please elaborate on the 2nd paragraph.
Actually, that is kind of easy. What most people experience as “suffering” is equal to thoughts about pain. So if one can change thoughts about pain, one can reduce suffering. That is demonstrable and experiencible. Pain and suffering are two, not one. That may be the reason we have two words, one for each? 🙂
 
There is another reason. Many find some (or even all) moral laws irksome and prefer to make their own - on the pretext that morality is subjective anyway. The fatal flaw in that view is the criminal’s values are as valid as anyone else’s!
Some sceptics genuinely cannot reconcile suffering with a loving God yet they willingly admit life is immensely valuable. It is obviously more reasonable not to rule out Design when most philosophers concede some suffering is inevitable. How could it possibly be demonstrated that suffering is excessive? Nimzovik
The first Paragraph is too true.
Please elaborate on the 2nd paragraph.
  1. Accidents rarely have valuable consequences.
  2. Valuable consequences are generally caused by rational activity.
  3. The greater the** value **of life the greater the probability that its value outweighs suffering.
  4. The immense **value **of life makes it immensely probable that its value outweighs suffering.
  5. The greater the** complexity **of life the greater the probability that life is caused by purposeful activity.
  6. The immense** complexity **of life makes it immensely probable that life is caused by purposeful activity.
  7. The combined probabilities of the value and** complexity of life **imply that the probability that life is not caused by benevolent, purposeful activity is negligible.
 
Actually, that is kind of easy. What most people experience as “suffering” is equal to thoughts about pain. So if one can change thoughts about pain, one can reduce suffering. That is demonstrable and experiencible. Pain and suffering are two, not one. That may be the reason we have two words, one for each? 🙂
I have practised self-hypnosis and two small scars on my arm vouch for the truth of your statements. 😉
 
  1. Accidents rarely have valuable consequences.I had three seperate accidents, each one taught me valuable lessons, in one instance saved my life, because something very seriousI could not have known about was discovered and treated, and one totally, profoundly changed my life perspective and introduced me to dimensions of awareness I had no suspicion of.
 
Yes. So?

Why should any of this be fixed, when it is enough that this is what we observe? And if your designer exists, what is his/her/its purpose for existing, and why design this universe rather than some other one? For all we know, a designer could just exist, for no purpose. Unless that purpose is/was to design…something. A bit circular and vague, don’t you think?
Purpose means a final cause. God, as that Who directs all to their final causes,and in Whom the forms subsist, thus has no purpose - not that He exists for no reason, since He is existence and being itself; and not that He is nakedly purposeless, but that He is that person Who brings purpose about, and thus precedes it; not that God changes from one state to another in order to align with His supposed purpose, but that God, as pure act, cannot change in such a way at all.
 
Multi-functional!
  1. To believe human life is valuable implies that we value our beliefs.
  2. To believe all beliefs are valueless is self-refuting.
  3. Even false beliefs are valuable to the extent that they demonstrate our power and right to choose what to believe.
  4. Rational existence is intrinsically valuable because it is the basis of our power and right to choose what to believe.
  5. To reject the intrinsic value of rational existence is a form of insanity.
  6. It presupposes that the act of rejection is valuable.
  7. Rational existence presupposes purposeful activity.
  8. A designer is necessarily purposeful because design implies purposeful activity.
  9. It is absurd to believe a designer exists for no purpose.
  10. The intrinsic value of rational existence is not restricted to design but is based on the power of creativity.
  11. The power of creativity enables us to choose what is true, good and right not only for ourselves but for everyone else.
  12. By choosing what is true, good and right we love everyone and live in harmony like our Creator.
 
  1. Accidents rarely have valuable consequences.
We assign greater value to some things and lesser value to other things. To believe that “life is extremely valuable” means that it has a much higher value than other things.
  1. Valuable consequences are generally caused by rational activity.
Rational activity is required to determine if there are valuable consequences. So value relies on a rational interpretation of reality. Accidental causes cannot offer an understanding of value because all of reality is reduced to exactly the same value (none) if everything emerged from accidential-chance origins.
  1. The greater the** value **of life the greater the probability that its value outweighs suffering.
That is a very good point! Suffering is a problem because we value life.
  1. The immense **value **of life makes it immensely probable that its value outweighs suffering.
The value of life is so immense that we endure suffering, and many actually embrace a path of life that leads to suffering and pain, in order to preserve and honor life itself.
  1. The greater the** complexity **of life the greater the probability that life is caused by purposeful activity.
We can observe the difference between what is caused by purposeful activity and what is caused by non-purposeful actions. Life possesses ordered, functional complexity to an immensely higher degree than what we find in accidental outputs.
  1. The combined probabilities of the value and** complexity of life **imply that the probability that life is not caused by benevolent, purposeful activity is negligible.
It also implies that, because of the complexity and value of life, the pain and suffering that we encounter is part of the purpose and order that are evident in the design of life itself.
 
Purpose means a final cause. God, as that Who directs all to their final causes,and in Whom the forms subsist, thus has no purpose - not that He exists for no reason, since He is existence and being itself; and not that He is nakedly purposeless, but that He is that person Who brings purpose about, and thus precedes it; not that God changes from one state to another in order to align with His supposed purpose, but that God, as pure act, cannot change in such a way at all.
God cannot exist for a reason because that would mean that the reason was something other than God, and would have to exist before God. So, God doesn’t try to fulfill some purpose – because all purpose comes from God. Nothing can have purpose and meaning without God since He is the origin of all.
God is necessary. Things have purpose because God exists.
If God needed to act for a purpose or have a reason to exist, then God would not be the explanation for where that purpose and reason came from.
Being comes from somewhere. To prevent an infinite regress, we reason that there must be a source of Being that did not come from previously existing being. Because things are in progress, we reason that there had to be a starting point. Because all things are dependent on other things and are ultimately unnecessary, there must be a Being that is self-existing and necessary.
 
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