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tonyrey
Guest
It’s not a question of rejecting reason but of attempting to oust it on a philosophy forum where it should have pride of place (which is a misuse of this forum).
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reggieM
Guest
“The man who is ready to prove that metaphysical knowledge is impossible has . . . himself . . . perhaps unknowingly, entered the arena [of metaphysics] . . . . To say that reality is such that our knowledge cannot reach it, is to claim to know reality.” [F H Bradley – *Appearance and Reality, 2nd Edn. (Clarendon Press, 1930), p.1]
From a blog post:
Rationality, decision-making and science alike are founded on the principle of right reason: if an event happens, why — and, how? If something begins or ceases to exist, why and how? If something is sustained in existence, what factors contribute to, promote or constrain that effect or process, how? The answers to these questions are causes.
It is often claimed that quantum theory has proven that events can occur without a cause. Some will go as far as claim that quantum events prove that “something can come from nothing”. That is used as an attempt to refute the design argument – since whatever has been designed, must have a cause.
Quantum effects, however, do require necessary causal factors. Certain conditions must be in place and only specific results (virtual pairs) emerge as if coming from nothing.
From a blog post:
Rationality, decision-making and science alike are founded on the principle of right reason: if an event happens, why — and, how? If something begins or ceases to exist, why and how? If something is sustained in existence, what factors contribute to, promote or constrain that effect or process, how? The answers to these questions are causes.
It is often claimed that quantum theory has proven that events can occur without a cause. Some will go as far as claim that quantum events prove that “something can come from nothing”. That is used as an attempt to refute the design argument – since whatever has been designed, must have a cause.
Quantum effects, however, do require necessary causal factors. Certain conditions must be in place and only specific results (virtual pairs) emerge as if coming from nothing.
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Gaber
Guest
I’m sorry if you are defending your attempts to oust reason from these pages. l think that here is exactly where it belongs.
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reggieM
Guest
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tonyrey
Guest
Please specify where I have done so…
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tonyrey
Guest
, 2nd Edn. (Clarendon Press, 1930), p.1]From a blog post:
Rationality, decision-making and science alike are founded on the principle of right reason: if an event happens, why — and, how? If something begins or ceases to exist, why and how? If something is sustained in existence, what factors contribute to, promote or constrain that effect or process, how? The answers to these questions are causes.It is often claimed that quantum theory has proven that events can occur without a cause. Some will go as far as claim that quantum events prove that “something can come from nothing”. That is used as an attempt to refute the design argument – since whatever has been designed, must have a cause.
Quantum effects, however, do require necessary causal factors. Certain conditions must be in place and only specific results (virtual pairs) emerge as if coming from nothing.Which is quite different from asserting that **everything **comes from nothing!
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prodigalson2011
Guest
Sarcasm, heckling, insults, intellectual posturing: the universal tools of the enlightened, compassionate contemplative!
(Lest I be accused of hypocrisy, I plead spiritual immaturity!)
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Viewscreen
Guest
Exactly. Your ‘reasons’ that you give quite frankly remind me of Deepak Chopra’s rants concerning Sam Harris’s supposed “devaluing” of poetry and literature, because he does not grant a spiritual realm…
This isn’t philosophy, just so you know.
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tonyrey
Guest
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reggieM
Guest
:clapping:
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tonyrey
Guest
You are far from being the only one has borne the brunt of such charges - and I too must
plead spiritual immaturity!
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reggieM
Guest
True – that would violate the law of non-contradiction among many other essential truths.
In fact, we could say also that it’s different from asserting that **anything **comes from nothing.
Quantum events, at the very least, have electrons, energy and exist in some kind of bounded-space. Those things are not “nothing”.
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Gaber
Guest
I’ve pointed it out many times and many posts. Just read any of our exchanges. When you were “on,” I even supported your statements. I have no ax to grind with you, but I do see from a slightly different perspective, so my premise is radically different. From that perspective your “reasoning” appears to me as rationalization. And I have offered a way for you t se exactly why I make that stand, and you have been pretty dismissive about it. On the other hand, I’ve had a good deal of experience with Catholicism, even as a proselytizer for it, and have a good working basis for understanding much of where you are coming from. So, you see, it is a bit lopsided.
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Gaber
Guest
You can’t plead “spiritual immaturity” as you always already are what you “seek” from the paradigm of accepting the thought that there is a destination or something to find or complete. That is why they call it “belief.” You live as if you aren’t what you are: Conscious awareness primarily, and secondarily a person. Prove to me that you are not aware, or that what you are aware of is not the contents of your awareness. I am always only interested in that the nature of the container of beliefs itself is known.
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reggieM
Guest
Some classic New Age foolishness. You’re impersonating a shaman or a soothsayer or a run-of-the-mill wizard. As such, you’re saying nothing. I can do that all day long:
You aren’t really what you are but rather a true consciousness seeking liberation from its own container.
Be your own Being – seek the balance of your chakras and the oneness of the non-existent.
Nurture your inner child on the desires of the universe. Ground your energy in the positive vibrations of the non-mind.
Limits come from containers, man – Release your grasp on the limits of reason and discover that once you reach the good karma of irrationality, you’ll transcend illusions and become part of the dream that is Life itself.
There is nothing to seek – go out and find it.
Logic is a trap. Traps are not good. Therefore, logic is not good.
The truth does not exist – trust me, I know what I’m talking about.
My mind is a liar. I have convinced myself of that.
Trust the magic – only that is the Being that is truly the essence of happening and the true philosophy is proven by Harmonic Convergence.
Give Birth to the awareness that is the reality within and the wonder that nurtures us.
Unwrap the Gift of every day life and discover that what you were is where today would be if it was yesterday.
You cannot be what you will be tomorrow because tomorrow hasn’t come yet – except in your mind.
You need not think to have thought, and you need not have thought to fully realize the potential of the genius that is the non-entity called “You”.
If we rise above the mind-made concepts of reason and logic, we will become friends with the galaxies and embrace the knowledge which is no longer held captive by concepts and words placed in a cage.
What I am saying is invisible, and therefore it exists in the Truth that can only be sensed and not comprehended.
Look, I am here! – my reality is the undeniable core of all things that exist from now until timelessness will do away with time and we will no longer be enslaved by wristwatches and other dark energies.
You are a caterpillar – allow the sunshine to discover your Oneness with new realities.
Be your own painting – follow your own Presence.
Don’t just live life – let life live itself.
Knowledge is knowing what is unknowable.
Seeing is embracing the impossible and energizing the Manifestation of Aware-Less-Ness and Opening the Doors of your inner con-artist.
Do not believe in anything simply because it makes sense and is correct.
Make room for plenty of confusion and ambiguity so you can always dazzle yourself with the brilliance of a million mega-connections.
Proof is only certain when whatever is unproven has become the antithesis of itself and thus non-Being has transcended the space-time limits of non-awareness.
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reggieM
Guest
How, therefore, shall we satisfy ourselves concerning the cause of that Being whom you suppose the Author of Nature, … if we stop, and go no further; why go so far? why not stop at the material world? How can we satisfy ourselves without going on in infinitum? And, after all, what satisfaction is there in that infinite progression?
—* David Hume*
Hume is saying that we can (supposedly) trace back the cause of things to certain material principles, or perhaps, just to the laws of physics alone. At that point, he wants to stop the search up the causal-chain because if not, then it just goes on in infinitum.
He wants to know “the cause of the Being” who is the Author of Nature.
Some people still think this is a valid and convincing argument.
The problem should be obvious – it is through Nature that material causes can have effects and that we can have a succession of events (before and after, one event added to the next in a string of events … the progression of time).
To wonder how “The Author of Nature” was caused is to ask how the Author of material causality was caused by material processes.
Since material causality has an origin, you can’t ask how material causes caused themselves to exist.
The same is true of Being. The Author of Being cannot be caused by another being.
—* David Hume*
Hume is saying that we can (supposedly) trace back the cause of things to certain material principles, or perhaps, just to the laws of physics alone. At that point, he wants to stop the search up the causal-chain because if not, then it just goes on in infinitum.
He wants to know “the cause of the Being” who is the Author of Nature.
Some people still think this is a valid and convincing argument.
The problem should be obvious – it is through Nature that material causes can have effects and that we can have a succession of events (before and after, one event added to the next in a string of events … the progression of time).
To wonder how “The Author of Nature” was caused is to ask how the Author of material causality was caused by material processes.
Since material causality has an origin, you can’t ask how material causes caused themselves to exist.
The same is true of Being. The Author of Being cannot be caused by another being.
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tonyrey
Guest
At long last we have a new form of knowledge discovered by the one and only reggieM of CAF!
Long live our source of inspiration… :newidea:
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tonyrey
Guest
It’s certainly lopsided when one person proclaims on the basis of a non-communicable private experience that all the others are rationalising while he alone on this forum has been spiritually enlightened…
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edwest2
Guest
Excellent post. Elaborate, nonsensical claims are elaborate, nonsensical claims. Meanwhile, all of us wake up every day, deal with it as best we can, and go to bed. Real life is so much more.
Peace,
Ed
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Gaber
Guest
Yes. I agree. And clearly not what I’m talking about. Thanks, EdWest!
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