Powers of Apostles Ended With Their Deaths?

[bjryman]

I have a question the may already have been addressed, but cannot locate it herein.

Recently, I engaged in a rather congenial conversation with an associate of mine that also is an elder of a local Baptist congregation. Somehow the discussion that day turned to how one could not believe in Apostles ability to forgive sins was not passed down to their chosen leaders.

I noted that other Baptists informed me that they believe that power ended with the death of the Apostles. When I noted that there is no actual biblical reference to that view, which would be especially true for sola scripture teachings, my friend stated that in fact there is reference by John in Revelations. That reference deals with this topic of the Apostles being unique. We had to part company and I didn’t remember the passages in Revelations to which he refered.

So my question is: Is the view that most of the Apostles power granted by Jesus (but especially forgiveness of sins) ended with their deaths, one held by most, or many Protestants who don’t accept this sacrament?

Thanks for the help.
bruce

 

[SteveVH]

I have a question the may already have been addressed, but cannot locate it herein.

Recently, I engaged in a rather congenial conversation with an associate of mine that also is an elder of a local Baptist congregation. Somehow the discussion that day turned to how one could not believe in Apostles ability to forgive sins was not passed down to their chosen leaders.

I noted that other Baptists informed me that they believe that power ended with the death of the Apostles. When I noted that there is no actual biblical reference to that view, which would be especially true for sola scripture teachings, my friend stated that in fact there is reference by John in Revelations. That reference deals with this topic of the Apostles being unique. We had to part company and I didn’t remember the passages in Revelations to which he refered.

So my question is: Is the view that most of the Apostles power granted by Jesus (but especially forgiveness of sins) ended with their deaths, one held by most, or many Protestants who don’t accept this sacrament?

Thanks for the help.
bruce

The Apostles were unique, but not their office, which is the office of bishop. It was their authority that was handed down through succession to subsequent bishops. This topic is being discussed in depth on another thread.

 

[po18guy]

I have a question the may already have been addressed, but cannot locate it herein.

Recently, I engaged in a rather congenial conversation with an associate of mine that also is an elder of a local Baptist congregation. Somehow the discussion that day turned to how one could not believe in Apostles ability to forgive sins was not passed down to their chosen leaders.

I noted that other Baptists informed me that they believe that power ended with the death of the Apostles. When I noted that there is no actual biblical reference to that view, which would be especially true for sola scripture teachings, my friend stated that in fact there is reference by John in Revelations. That reference deals with this topic of the Apostles being unique. We had to part company and I didn’t remember the passages in Revelations to which he refered.

So my question is: Is the view that most of the Apostles power granted by Jesus (but especially forgiveness of sins) ended with their deaths, one held by most, or many Protestants who don’t accept this sacrament?

Thanks for the help.
bruce

If this is so, then Matthias was not a true replacement for Judas (Acts 1:12-26), since Judas had died. If Judas’ power died with him, then no replacement (including Paul!) would ever be a true successor, possessing Judas’ powers. Yet, the Holy Spirit descended upon Matthias at the Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), giving him all of the Spirit’s gifts that would have gone to Judas. Don’t expect it to change his mind, though.

 

[Victorious]

This point of view makes no sense when you stop to think that Jesus is God, and that, as God, He had to have foreseen the sin-saturated ages to come. If He loved us enough to become incarnate and suffer and die to save us from damnation, why would He not leave us a remedy for ongoing sin? Or if He failed to foresee what was to come, then He couldn’t have been God, and our faith is of no avail.

 

[GeorgeTheWild]

Recently, I engaged in a rather congenial conversation with an associate of mine that also is an elder of a local Baptist congregation. Somehow the discussion that day turned to how one could not believe in Apostles ability to forgive sins was not passed down to their chosen leaders.

One common interpretation was that Jesus was giving the apostles the authority to define what was sin and what was not sin. ie they could settle disputes over following old testament laws about circumcision and prohibited foods.

 

[Reuben_J]

**Jn 20:22-23(NIV)
22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Jn 20:22-23 (KJV)
22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. **

Jn 20:23 can be interpreted as forgiveness of sins; not any specific transgression of the laws. Perhaps it is pertinent to note v.22 – Jesus breathed on them the Holy Spirit. Today if an ordained priests that have uninterrupted apostolic succession receive the Holy Spirit, which is the same Holy Spirit that was being breathed by Jesus, they should have that power to forgive.

 

[bjryman]

The Apostles were unique, but not their office, which is the office of bishop. It was their authority that was handed down through succession to subsequent bishops. This topic is being discussed in depth on another thread.

Thanks for this response and all the others. But, my question was about the Revelations scripture passages my friend mentioned that counteracts the message of John’s Gospel.

Also, where is this topic covered in another thread. Again, I’m not looking for all the typical arguments we have using the Gospels and tradition. I’m looking for the Revelations scripture passages that my friend would deem to be so important as to set the belief of his faith

Thanks again!!
bruce

 

[agent_grey]

Jesus gave the appostles much more than that simple thing. He gave them all fullness of the authority that he held as a man. He also commanded them to follow his example(do as I do). They did… appostolic succession is born and proven by scripure and only scripture.

That said I do not like to use scriptural innerancy or scripure alone for proof of the mind and will of God as the doctrines are based on an ancient Pagan tradition known Today as Pagan Literature Worship.

 

[Zenas]

Thanks for this response and all the others. But, my question was about the Revelations scripture passages my friend mentioned that counteracts the message of John’s Gospel.

Also, where is this topic covered in another thread. Again, I’m not looking for all the typical arguments we have using the Gospels and tradition. I’m looking for the Revelations scripture passages that my friend would deem to be so important as to set the belief of his faith

Thanks again!!
bruce

The reason you can’t find the Revelation passage that says the gift of absolution disappeared with the death of the apostles is that it doesn’t exist. The nearest scripture you will find to support this theory is 1 Corinthians 13:8, and that one is a little fuzzy. What your friend was talking about is known as Cessationism, and it is not clearly spelled out in scripture. Since they don’t see tongues and healing miracles today, they just believe such things were not passed down beyond the first generation. Although Baptists deny any adherence to tradition, Cessationism is something that most people who adhere to it have acquired through their tradition.

Incidentally, GeorgeThe Wild was essentially correct in Post No. 5. There are no Evangelicals and very few Protestants of any stripe who think the apostles ever had the power of absolution. Instead they interpret this passage as meaning Christ gave the apostles the power to proclaim the gospel, therefore declaring that those who accepted the gospel were forgiven and those who did not accept the gospel were not forgiven.

 

[bjryman]

The reason you can’t find the Revelation passage that says the gift of absolution disappeared with the death of the apostles is that it doesn’t exist. The nearest scripture you will find to support this theory is 1 Corinthians 13:8, and that one is a little fuzzy. What your friend was talking about is known as Cessationism, and it is not clearly spelled out in scripture. Since they don’t see tongues and healing miracles today, they just believe such things were not passed down beyond the first generation. Although Baptists deny any adherence to tradition, Cessationism is something that most people who adhere to it have acquired through their tradition.

Incidentally, GeorgeThe Wild was essentially correct in Post No. 5. There are no Evangelicals and very few Protestants of any stripe who think the apostles ever had the power of absolution. Instead they interpret this passage as meaning Christ gave the apostles the power to proclaim the gospel, therefore declaring that those who accepted the gospel were forgiven and those who did not accept the gospel were not forgiven.

GOT IT! Thanks for the information. I’ll have to ask my friend for the specific Revelations Chapter and Verse he claims as Scriptural reference.

Interesting comment about proclaiming the gospel, etc. I have heard similar comments before…mostly though with a twist that there were Apostles and Disciples in the room when Christ appeared. Therefore, the words were directed at all Disciples who proclaim the gospel. Thus, if one believes that Christ addressed a broader audience than just the 11, then He must be saying that Disciples can witness the acceptance of the Word, Repentance of the Person, and therefore that sins of the person were forgiven by Christ in that manner.

I now understand better what they are claiming.

Thanks again
bruce