Powers of Apostles passed on?

[ni8_shadow]

Spoke to a friend about Confession and I pointed out the usual John 20. His reply was “That power is only for them. They are Apostles, your priest is not an Apostle. Only god can forgive sins.” I went on about the instances where God uses men to act out His will. Such as Moses and the other Prophets. I also pointed out that the Apostles power to firgive sins is not their own, but God’s given to them.

I know of verses that speak of passing on the knowledge and teachings, but none that discuss a passing on of “powers” like absolving sins. Any help would be great!!

thanks

 

[NotWorthy]

Who said the power would die with the Apostles? Where does the Bible say that? For the early Church certainly understood that the authority continued on.

But, since your friend won’t look at anything but Scripture, ask him if the Apostles went out to all nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The answer is no. So, either the Apostles didn’t fulfill Jesus’ last commandment or His last commandment has been fulfilled in the Apostles successors - the Bishops of the Catholic Church.

Also, look to the tradition of the “laying on of hands”. Throughout the ancient world, this was a sign of a transfer (or more specifically, a continuation) of authority. The “laying on of hands” took on at least a couple of roles in the Early Church. The Faithful received the Holy Spirit when the Apostles laid their hands on them. And early Church leaders, presbyters such as Timothy, Titus, and Barnabas, received their authority to teach and preach through the laying on of hands.

 

[NotWorthy]

His reply was “That power is only for them. They are Apostles, your priest is not an Apostle. Only god can forgive sins.”

Now see, your friend is already contradicting himself. Is it “only God”? Or is it “only God and Apostles”.

But truly, it is still only God who is forgiving our sins. The priest is just His means of passing on that forgiveness that we all so very much need.

 

[Snerticus]

Here is a good passage to give to your friend. I just heard it tonight on a CAL podcast!

Matt: 9

5 Now, which of these is easier: to say, “Your sins are forgiven,” or to say, “Get up and walk”? 6 But to prove to you that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins,’ – then he said to the paralytic-‘get up, pick up your bed and go off home.’ 7 And the man got up and went home. 8 A feeling of awe came over the crowd when they saw this, and ***they praised ***God for having given such authority to human beings.

What does your friend think this means?

Snert

 

[ni8_shadow]

Here is a good passage to give to your friend. I just heard it tonight on a CAL podcast!

What does your friend think this means?

Snert

That the men who said that mistook Jesus as just an ordinary man. Jesus was God and only God can forgive sins, but not everyone knew that Jesus was God, so they wrongly assumed that Jesus was an ordinary man and that is why they were surprised.

I am trying to work the angle using John 20, the end of James, and the verse where Paul said “the sins I forgave, I forgave in Christ.” Is there a flow to using these verse that would give a big “BOOM!”

I know he’ll pull out the “well, actually, forgiving and not forgiving sins refers to people accepting or denying the Gospel” thing. How do you folk counter that? I see and hear that one a lot.

 

[incense]

If you prove your point, get ready for his next angle, which will be that he only needs to confess to any Christian. That priests aren’t special, but any Christian will do. And some churches have people confess their sins to the whole congregation. (That’s a gossip fest.)

 

[ni8_shadow]

I guess I would point out last part of James? The Sacrament of the sick thing. But then he might say that is only for cases of the sick…err!!! Non stop back and forth

 

[NotWorthy]

That the men who said that mistook Jesus as just an ordinary man. Jesus was God and only God can forgive sins, but not everyone knew that Jesus was God, so they wrongly assumed that Jesus was an ordinary man and that is why they were surprised.

I am trying to work the angle using John 20, the end of James, and the verse where Paul said “the sins I forgave, I forgave in Christ.” Is there a flow to using these verse that would give a big “BOOM!”

What does “forgave in Christ” mean? It means to “forgive with the authority given to me by Christ”. That will punch a hole in their next objection.

I know he’ll pull out the “well, actually, forgiving and not forgiving sins refers to people accepting or denying the Gospel” thing. How do you folk counter that? I see and hear that one a lot.

They are completely ignoring John. “Those sin YOU forgive, they are forgiven”. Not “if you accept the Gospel, your sins are forgiven”. In John’s Gospel, the impetus is on the Apostles. “***IF *the Apostle forgives someone’s sins, THEN they are forgiven” and Paul kicks it up a notch by adding “IN CHRIST”.

Your friends objection places the impetus on the person accepting the Gospel, which is not what John’s Gospel intends. “If someone accepts the Gospel, then their sins are forgiven”.

Why did Jesus feel the need to give the Apostles the gift of the Holy Spirit if their participation in the forgiveness of sins was not important?!?

 

[Snerticus]

I’d say just do the best you can and move on. Most times we never see the big “AHA” moment in others, they usually have that at some point way down the road when we are not part of their lives anymore. However, you can try and plant the seeds that will sprout from there…

Snert