Practical discussion of sex?

[Xantippe]

.

1. Because in my Catholic upbringing, I learned jack squat about it

**Not at all. The whole globe teems with billions of people who had at best one awkward conversation with parents, if that.

I’m from a Protestant family, and my family sex ed consisted of being handed one book by James Dobson on adolescence.

Just about everybody is self-taught, not just Catholics. Even pretty liberal people can drop the ball. I had a classmate in high school who had very, very liberal parents who complained that her parents’ version of sex ed left her believing that her parents had only had sex twice since they had two kids.
**

1. Because reading the few vague topics on CAF have only made me more confused and such topics are frowned upon here. I love CAF, but it’s not a good resource for this subject at all…

**Really? I thought we go on and on about it.

I’d say–stick to procreative acts, don’t humiliate your spouse or cause unnecessary discomfort, be nice to your spouse, and have fun! And that pretty much covers it. Aside from the question of what is and isn’t procreative, what is and isn’t a good idea largely depends on the particular couple. I happen to own a certain amount of secular literature. It’s fairly easy to weed out the immoral suggestions, once you have a grasp of the basics. There are lots of moral options. **

If no one can point to a forum, what about a website that has essays and whatnot?

That’s a better idea.

I also like Simcha Fisher’s book The Sinner’s Guide to NFP. It’s not graphic, but you may find it helpful, and it’s a fast read.

 

[Xantippe]

Thanks.

For example,

1. explanation of permitted foreplay within marriage (as opposed to the impermissible lists, and also, they contradict each other at times, so we have crossed off virtually everything with foreplay until we can figure it out… really messing up our sex lives right now),

**If it’s safe, comfortable, mutually agreeable, and it’s actually foreplay (no climax), then there is a long list of things that are just fine.

(I have to add that I think role playing could be morally problematic, as in many cases, one would be pretending to sin.) **

1. explanation of permissible lubricant (is KY o.k. for a Catholic?),

**Of course.

If it doesn’t say “spermicide” on the box, you’re good.
**

1. explanation of permissible devices (what does it mean to be an “artificial” device?)

???

1. permissible sexual positions?
   **
   As long as it’s a procreative act, you’re good. **
2. improving communication within bedroom?

Talk! (Sorry! No, really, just talk!)

etc.

 

[underacloud]

1. explanation of permitted foreplay within marriage (as opposed to the impermissible lists, and also, they contradict each other at times, so we have crossed off virtually everything with foreplay until we can figure it out… really messing up our sex lives right now),

There are countless threads on this very forum that have discussed this. Do a search and read through those.

Bottom line - you will not find any Church authorised list of what’s OK and what’s not OK. The threads you will find via a search will provide the arguments for or against different acts and you will simply need to weigh those arguments for yourself.

1. explanation of permissible lubricant (is KY o.k. for a Catholic?),

There’s nothing wrong with lubricant per se, but some of them (including the typical ones) do slow sperm and thus impart some contraceptive effect. Thus there is a bit of grey in using them, but there are sperm-friendly lubricants available.

 

[pensmama87]

I second (actually, third ) the recommendation of Holy Sex by Greg Popcak.

A few posts have hit on this pretty well above, but really, the idea is that you and your spouse work out what you like to do together, you discover together what it means to be intimate with each other and what you enjoy. What works for some couples may not work for others.

The “limitations” set by the Church are not actually that limiting, and what is displayed as “normal” nowadays wouldn’t be considered normal without mass media - it was the select activities of a few very dark places in the world before that.

I agree with 1ke that a lot of what you’re describing is not appropriate for public forums, but you do have more resources than your doctor. Ask your doctor if it’s a health question, ask a priest if it’s theological, ask a counselor if it’s psychological. Books, essays, etc. are also good. (Simcha Fisher’s book that Xantippe mentioned is really good about discussing the relationship aspects of NFP).

I think there can be a danger in forums that people can pretend (even to themselves) that they have good intentions when really they are looking for titillation. At least in a book the content is static, and people aren’t feeding off each other.

But most importantly, ask your wife. She’s the one you make the relationship with.

 

[Xantippe]

The “limitations” set by the Church are not actually that limiting, and what is displayed as “normal” nowadays wouldn’t be considered normal without mass media - it was the select activities of a few very dark places in the world before that.

**Yep. Even over the last 20 years, the repertoire of “normal” activity has really mushroomed in the US.

I would suggest starting with basics and working from there, rather than starting by purchasing matching Ewok costumes and doing a 50 Shades of Grey-inspired renovation of one of the rooms of your (undoubtedly small) home.
**

I agree with 1ke that a lot of what you’re describing is not appropriate for public forums, but you do have more resources than your doctor. Ask your doctor if it’s a health question, ask a priest if it’s theological, ask a counselor if it’s psychological. Books, essays, etc. are also good. (Simcha Fisher’s book that Xantippe mentioned is really good about discussing the relationship aspects of NFP).

I think there can be a danger in forums that people can pretend (even to themselves) that they have good intentions when really they are looking for titillation. At least in a book the content is static, and people aren’t feeding off each other.

But most importantly, ask your wife. She’s the one you make the relationship with.

Yes! Years ago, I used to read Dan Savage, the sex columnist. He had a funny column once where he juxtaposed two letters, one from a woman saying, “Why don’t you tell men that women like XYZ? It works for me,” the other from a different woman saying something like, “Why don’t you tell men that women HATE XYZ?” So you can’t really learn from a book or an article what your wife will or won’t like.

So, talk to your wife and experiment. It will be fun!

I think the relational stuff is the really important thing. It doesn’t matter if a particular activity is technically moral if it annoys or humiliates your wife. (But the good news is that as time goes by, if you keep up the interpersonal side, the range of activities you are both comfortable with is not unlikely to expand.)

 

[Xantippe]

I would suggest envisioning a Venn diagram with a large circle with a smaller circle inside of it.

The large circle is “marital sexual activity that is kosher for Catholics.”

The smaller circle is “stuff my spouse and I actually want to do.”

It is theoretically possible for the circles to be of identical size, so that the spouses are willing to do everything that is licit, but in practice, the second circle is going to be smaller, especially since there are two people’s preferences to be considered, and one or both of them may have particular issues (for instance a history of abuse or a bad back) that shrink their circle.

 

[pensmama87]

I just realized this is a resurrected thread. Whoops. I got thrown because the OP is a regular (though I should have realized that since he’s a regular he’s probably familiar with the constant threads on the subject by now.)

 

[Xantippe]

I just realized this is a resurrected thread. Whoops. I got thrown because the OP is a regular (though I should have realized that since he’s a regular he’s probably familiar with the constant threads on the subject by now.)

Oops!