Practical Reasons Support Use of Organ in Mass

[opus101]

This article is very informative and steers clear of all the usual bickering and “opinionating” that is usually associated with the topic of liturgical music.

The facts presented need to be seriously considered by those involved with liturgical music.

The article is very short and to the point, please read and share your thoughts.

theologyinworship.com/2015/04/13/5-reasons-to-keep-the-organ-in-worship/

 

[schaeffer]

For older churches that already have an organ, I think it is great to keep it and keep it in good condition.

I’ve been part of several churches that needed to overhaul their organ, and yes it was astoundingly expensive, as is purchasing and old one and having it installed into a different space etc.

These churches weren’t installing state of the art sound systems either, they had no interest in it, and had they, the cost was prohibitive.

Mega churches may be a different issue, but they are not the norm. For every mega church there are a few thousand modest churches for whom a pipe organ is basically a pipe dream.

I agree with all the other points. And I have been part of churches who had massive capital campaigns to rebuild or purchase organs. Their not dead yet!

 

[pianistclare]

Yup.

When a pastoral council is faced with a capital campaign to raise 100 grand for a pipe organ, and then factor in the 40 thousand remodel that goes with it, those 18 thousand digital jobs start looking really good. And they sound good too if you get a Kawai. Their digital sampling is the Pipe Organ from Westminster Abbey.
You just have to convince the choir director to USE the organ settings.
Most have begun to rely on the piano option only. But you need an organ for funeral s and weddings, even if you use a lot of contemporary music. Some things just need to be played on an organ.

 

[on_the_hill]

I learned from a pipe organ repairman that a somewhat accurate estimate of cost is $20,000 per stop.

 

[drforjc]

It always comes down to dollars vs. what SC said about pipe organ having pride of place.

 

[opus101]

Question: What electronic organs are the best for parishes? Since pipe organs are out of the question for many (due to cost), what would be the best non-pipe organ to get?

I do realize that the “real thing” is leagues better than what I’m asking about, but I think an electronic organ would be so much better at sustaining the singing than a piano/keyboard/guitar. The organ sound is completely sustained and doesn’t die away.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I learned from a pipe organ repairman that a somewhat accurate estimate of cost is $20,000 per stop.

Sounds about right. The massive Hazel Wright organ at our new Christ Cathedral [diocese of Orange California, previously the Chrystal Cathedral] has been shipped to Italy to be rebuilt by the original builders. Cost: $2 million for 56 stops; that’s about $35 thousand per stop. It is a special case of course.

 

[bobballen_18]

This article lays out quite well some practical reasons for using organ for Church; for many people today, simply stating that the Church prefers the organ to be used is not enough - they want to know if it is “really practical” for the church to prefer/promote something like the organ. But here is what I think: the Church has to get a couple or a few decades older before she will go more completely back to promoting only true sacred music. What’s more, it will be a number of decades before everyone realizes that the, shall we say, not-so-beautiful, modern churches built after the 1960s need to be renovated/rebuilt to look like a real Church - a truly sacred place. I think that in time, the faithful’s mind will be more in tune with the mind of the Church, and will be more willing to spend money on Church in general, and along with that will include things such as beautiful churches, and with the proper organ for each building (which in the bigger churches would mean a big, “fancy” organ). I suppose that a particular parish’s diocese might be able to help out a little bit financially, but indeed, it is up to each parish’s parishioners to sacrifice their time, talent, and treasure for the good of their own parish, which contributes to the good of the Church as a whole.

Not to say that no parish today has such people - just that priorities are different today than they have been in the past. I know I am probably gonna get “yelled” at for putting so much emphasis on nice churches (and nice organs), but come on, if people could build awesome churches hundreds and hundreds of years ago, how much more beautiful should we be able to make them today?? I realize some people literally don’t have any money to give, but on the other hand, that’s when giving is the most fruitful - when one doesn’t have any money to give. And yes, I’m just as guilty as anyone out there - I don’t do nearly as well as I should in this area. I’m working on it though.

Anyway. To summarize my point, practical reasons for using the organ in Church are only going to go so far. If organs ever make a comeback in the Catholic Church, it will only be because of 1) a heightened awareness and desire for beauty and 2) a heightened sense of thinking with the mind of the Church, which prefers certain things for the sanctification of its members.

I hope I didn’t babble on too much.

 

[pianistclare]

This article lays out quite well some practical reasons for using organ for Church; for many people today, simply stating that the Church prefers the organ to be used is not enough - they want to know if it is “really practical” for the church to prefer/promote something like the organ. But here is what I think: the Church has to get a couple or a few decades older before she will go more completely back to promoting only true sacred music. What’s more, it will be a number of decades before everyone realizes that the, shall we say, not-so-beautiful, modern churches built after the 1960s need to be renovated/rebuilt to look like a real Church - a truly sacred place. I think that in time, the faithful’s mind will be more in tune with the mind of the Church, and will be more willing to spend money on Church in general, and along with that will include things such as beautiful churches, and with the proper organ for each building (which in the bigger churches would mean a big, “fancy” organ). I suppose that a particular parish’s diocese might be able to help out a little bit financially, but indeed, it is up to each parish’s parishioners to sacrifice their time, talent, and treasure for the good of their own parish, which contributes to the good of the Church as a whole.

Not to say that no parish today has such people - just that priorities are different today than they have been in the past. I know I am probably gonna get “yelled” at for putting so much emphasis on nice churches (and nice organs), but come on, if people could build awesome churches hundreds and hundreds of years ago, how much more beautiful should we be able to make them today?? I realize some people literally don’t have any money to give, but on the other hand, that’s when giving is the most fruitful - when one doesn’t have any money to give. And yes, I’m just as guilty as anyone out there - I don’t do nearly as well as I should in this area. I’m working on it though.

Anyway. To summarize my point, practical reasons for using the organ in Church are only going to go so far. If organs ever make a comeback in the Catholic Church, it will only be because of 1) a heightened awareness and desire for beauty and 2) a heightened sense of thinking with the mind of the Church, which prefers certain things for the sanctification of its members.

I hope I didn’t babble on too much.

While I get what you’re saying, the fact is that Diocese’ and Archdiocese’ just don’t have the money or the inclination to do this. They expect the congregations to raise the funds. You can borrow from the Diocese, but you have to pay it back within 10 years (or the “juice” starts. Parishes are not permitted (around here) to get a loan from a bank. They must go through the Diocese.
We have a beautiful church. Non-existent space for education, and pretty lousy sound system. We still owe 2 million. No $$$ for a quality instrument of any sort.
Realistically, what you speak of is way out of the reach of many parishes. If you get permission even to open a new parish, then you have to use their contractors, and get pre-approval for every detail. Parishioners get tired of being pressed for money constantly. It can be debilitating for parishes to be drowning in debt. I’ve seen pastor literally get physically ill worrying about the debt. Does nothing constructive for their ministry, I can tell you.
It’s not as though parishes don’t desire great music. They simply don’t have the cash for the equipment or the staff to make it happen. I’ve been a church musician for 30 years. I have never once been paid commensurate to my ability or education level. Never. Never made a living wage, but people in the pews sure have a lot to say if the soloist is having a bad day, or heaven forbid, you are sick just one day.

 

[schaeffer]

Not to say that no parish today has such people - just that priorities are different today than they have been in the past. I know I am probably gonna get “yelled” at for putting so much emphasis on nice churches (and nice organs), but come on, if people could build awesome churches hundreds and hundreds of years ago, how much more beautiful should we be able to make them today??

The times they are a changing.

Hundreds and hundreds of years ago…well, some of those cathedrals took decades or hundreds of years to get to the condition that we see them in today. Most parishes are on a different sort of timeline.

Also, back then people could do a lot of the work themselves. Meaning that a stone mason could contribute his services, not necessarily money, and wood carvers and goldsmiths, and stone setters, etc etc.

Now a days, we must hire contractors. Who’s costs are higher because there is an endless stream of “middle men” who must also be paid, inspected, insured. There are permits to pay for. Construction codes that must be met…fire codes, handicap accessibility, electric and plumbing must be up to code, materials used have to meet specific requirements. It’s nearly endless.

Very few parishes have people who will build pews, make stained glass and build and install organs.

So, technically we certainly can build churches as beautiful today, but there are SO many factors now that didn’t have to be contended with then.

 

[opus101]

This article lays out quite well some practical reasons for using organ for Church; for many people today, simply stating that the Church prefers the organ to be used is not enough - they want to know if it is “really practical” for the church to prefer/promote something like the organ. But here is what I think: the Church has to get a couple or a few decades older before she will go more completely back to promoting only true sacred music. What’s more, it will be a number of decades before everyone realizes that the, shall we say, not-so-beautiful, modern churches built after the 1960s need to be renovated/rebuilt to look like a real Church - a truly sacred place. I think that in time, the faithful’s mind will be more in tune with the mind of the Church, and will be more willing to spend money on Church in general, and along with that will include things such as beautiful churches, and with the proper organ for each building (which in the bigger churches would mean a big, “fancy” organ). I suppose that a particular parish’s diocese might be able to help out a little bit financially, but indeed, it is up to each parish’s parishioners to sacrifice their time, talent, and treasure for the good of their own parish, which contributes to the good of the Church as a whole.

Not to say that no parish today has such people - just that priorities are different today than they have been in the past. I know I am probably gonna get “yelled” at for putting so much emphasis on nice churches (and nice organs), but come on, if people could build awesome churches hundreds and hundreds of years ago, how much more beautiful should we be able to make them today?? I realize some people literally don’t have any money to give, but on the other hand, that’s when giving is the most fruitful - when one doesn’t have any money to give. And yes, I’m just as guilty as anyone out there - I don’t do nearly as well as I should in this area. I’m working on it though.

Anyway. To summarize my point, practical reasons for using the organ in Church are only going to go so far. If organs ever make a comeback in the Catholic Church, it will only be because of 1) a heightened awareness and desire for beauty and 2) a heightened sense of thinking with the mind of the Church, which prefers certain things for the sanctification of its members.

I hope I didn’t babble on too much.

 

[bobballen_18]

While I get what you’re saying, the fact is that Diocese’ and Archdiocese’ just don’t have the money or the inclination to do this. They expect the congregations to raise the funds. You can borrow from the Diocese, but you have to pay it back within 10 years (or the “juice” starts. Parishes are not permitted (around here) to get a loan from a bank. They must go through the Diocese.
We have a beautiful church. Non-existent space for education, and pretty lousy sound system. We still owe 2 million. No $$$ for a quality instrument of any sort.
Realistically, what you speak of is way out of the reach of many parishes. If you get permission even to open a new parish, then you have to use their contractors, and get pre-approval for every detail. Parishioners get tired of being pressed for money constantly. It can be debilitating for parishes to be drowning in debt. I’ve seen pastor literally get physically ill worrying about the debt. Does nothing constructive for their ministry, I can tell you.
It’s not as though parishes don’t desire great music. They simply don’t have the cash for the equipment or the staff to make it happen. I’ve been a church musician for 30 years. I have never once been paid commensurate to my ability or education level. Never. Never made a living wage, but people in the pews sure have a lot to say if the soloist is having a bad day, or heaven forbid, you are sick just one day.

Yes, you’re right, Clare - that was my point, that each individual parish needs to take up the brunt of the cost of these things, but that there needs to be a change in mindset of nearly every parish before things like that once again become a priority. So that parishioners are willing to give money for things like that.

The times they are a changing.

Hundreds and hundreds of years ago…well, some of those cathedrals took decades or hundreds of years to get to the condition that we see them in today. Most parishes are on a different sort of timeline.

Also, back then people could do a lot of the work themselves. Meaning that a stone mason could contribute his services, not necessarily money, and wood carvers and goldsmiths, and stone setters, etc etc.

Now a days, we must hire contractors. Who’s costs are higher because there is an endless stream of “middle men” who must also be paid, inspected, insured. There are permits to pay for. Construction codes that must be met…fire codes, handicap accessibility, electric and plumbing must be up to code, materials used have to meet specific requirements. It’s nearly endless.

Very few parishes have people who will build pews, make stained glass and build and install organs.

So, technically we certainly can build churches as beautiful today, but there are SO many factors now that didn’t have to be contended with then.

Yeah, that’s a good point - that specialists within each Church just helped build the nice Churches before. Again, your post is definitely correct - but I think again my point applies here - that I think a mindset change will occur (eventually) to the extent that people will desire to spend their money for these purposes.

And just so ya’ll know, I don’t expect every single parish that exists to build an extremely expensive, exquisite Church, that contains a big, fancy pipe organ. I mean, I certainly wouldn’t object to something if each individual parish came up with the money for it somehow, but I don’t expect that to happen. I would say that the minimum is a simple, yet beautiful Church (meaning, not modern/circle/auditorium style - at least resembling what older Churches look like), with at least a decent electronic organ.

Since this thread is related to Church music - I would extend my point to say the following: part of this mindset change towards thinking with the Church, will entail putting more of a priority on actually paying competent Church musicians, to ensure that music at each and every parish can be as good as possible for that particular parish. And by “competent Church musicians” I mean qualified - those with the ability to lead/develop a music program and especially those who have studied sacred music and are on board with the Church’s preferred music.

Many parishes today simply don’t have the resources to pay even one qualified Church musician, but I think that in the future people will be willing to pay for this.

Admittedly, the number of qualified Church musicians (including organists) is dwindling today, but perhaps that is another thing that will make a comeback as well in the next 50 years or so.

 

[opus101]

Yes, you’re right, Clare - that was my point, that each individual parish needs to take up the brunt of the cost of these things, but that there needs to be a change in mindset of nearly every parish before things like that once again become a priority. So that parishioners are willing to give money for things like that.

Yeah, that’s a good point - that specialists within each Church just helped build the nice Churches before. Again, your post is definitely correct - but I think again my point applies here - that I think a mindset change will occur (eventually) to the extent that people will desire to spend their money for these purposes.

And just so ya’ll know, I don’t expect every single parish that exists to build an extremely expensive, exquisite Church, that contains a big, fancy pipe organ. I mean, I certainly wouldn’t object to something if each individual parish came up with the money for it somehow, but I don’t expect that to happen. I would say that the minimum is a simple, yet beautiful Church (meaning, not modern/circle/auditorium style - at least resembling what older Churches look like), with at least a decent electronic organ.

Since this thread is related to Church music - I would extend my point to say the following: part of this mindset change towards thinking with the Church, will entail putting more of a priority on actually paying competent Church musicians, to ensure that music at each and every parish can be as good as possible for that particular parish. And by “competent Church musicians” I mean qualified - those with the ability to lead/develop a music program and especially those who have studied sacred music and are on board with the Church’s preferred music.

Many parishes today simply don’t have the resources to pay even one qualified Church musician, but I think that in the future people will be willing to pay for this.

Admittedly, the number of qualified Church musicians (including organists) is dwindling today, but perhaps that is another thing that will make a comeback as well in the next 50 years or so.

I couldn’t agree with you more.
Now for the question I asked above: if a pipe organ is out of the question, what type of electronic organ would be best/ most affordable?
Small parishes with limited resources can at least get one of these, even if it takes years to raise the money.

 

[pianistclare]

I couldn’t agree with you more.
Now for the question I asked above: if a pipe organ is out of the question, what type of electronic organ would be best/ most affordable?
Small parishes with limited resources can at least get one of these, even if it takes years to raise the money.

I take it you didn’t like my answer.
What size and type are you seeking?

 

[HelenRose]

Churches also have to considered whether or not they have or can afford a competent organist.

Organs improperly played are like Chant improperly sung. Not heavenly at all.

 

[pianistclare]

Churches also have to considered whether or not they have or can afford a competent organist.

Organs improperly played are like Chant improperly sung. Not heavenly at all.

 

[opus101]

I take it you didn’t like my answer.
What size and type are you seeking?

Thank you for the info on the digital kawai!
I was just wondering if anyone else had any (name removed by moderator)ut. Thank you.

 

[opus101]

Churches also have to considered whether or not they have or can afford a competent organist.

Organs improperly played are like Chant improperly sung. Not heavenly at all.

Agree! There seems to be a great lack of organists and organ teachers, and it takes
many years to learn the instrument.

I guess, if there is to be a “revival” of sorts, it needs to start now!

Sounds like a really difficult endeavor.

 

[schaeffer]

Agree! There seems to be a great lack of organists and organ teachers, and it takes
many years to learn the instrument.

I guess, if there is to be a “revival” of sorts, it needs to start now!

Sounds like a really difficult endeavor.

That is so true. With there being less of a demand for organists, and being able to make a decent living at it (and lack of wonderful inspiring instruments to play on) fewer and fewer are going into the field.

Also, understandably, not all those who play the organ (or other instruments) are automatically qualified or gifted in leading choir. Though I have known several that were truly wonderful at both.

 

[bobballen_18]

I couldn’t agree with you more.
Now for the question I asked above: if a pipe organ is out of the question, what type of electronic organ would be best/ most affordable?
Small parishes with limited resources can at least get one of these, even if it takes years to raise the money.

I don’t personally know a lot about organs and their different types. You ask a good question though, because some electronic organs (or keyboards with organ settings) do not even closely resemble a real organ’s sound, and in my opinion, that should be taken into consideration. Maybe to a lot of people in the congregation today, it wouldn’t make a difference, but that’s only because they don’t know what a real organ sounds like!

I am working as an organist right now, and I am lucky enough to have a decent electronic organ. Not a big fancy one, but at least it doesn’t sound fake…haha. I can’t remember what kind of organ it is though…I’ll look at it when I go to Mass today.

In my case I never really thought about playing organ for Mass until relatively recently. In fact, I never considered Church music a career choice for me until probably 2 years ago. In addition, I would have never insisted on more organ at Mass until probably 3-4 years ago. Anyway, piano was my specialty growing up - began in 1st grade. Began playing a little bit of organ at the end of high school - nothing fancy, no pedals - just hymns/antiphons at Mass. Took a year of lessons sophomore year of college, then quit. Then, at the same time I was applying to my current job, began lessons again in earnest, a little over a year ago (my last semester of college). It only took a few months’ worth of practice before I could use the pedal without much (if any) trouble.

This is another comment about making music a priority - but I think that any church-goer who has had any musical training at all should heavily consider helping with Church music. The more talented ones who have had piano lessons (or just those otherwise interested) could attempt to pick up organ; anyone else could sing. Then of course you have to have a competent director. Except for having a well-trained director, I strongly believe that nearly every single parish, even small parishes, have the “man power” to have at least a small choir. Then it’s just a case of making it a priority.

Now, of course this is coming from a Church musician, who does not have a family to take care of. But still, despite that, I think things could be much better than they are today, both in terms of number of volunteers (but of course directors and organists should be paid), quality of music, and style of music.