Practical Reasons Support Use of Organ in Mass

[pianistclare]

I don’t personally know a lot about organs and their different types. You ask a good question though, because some electronic organs (or keyboards with organ settings) do not even closely resemble a real organ’s sound, and in my opinion, that should be taken into consideration. Maybe to a lot of people in the congregation today, it wouldn’t make a difference, but that’s only because they don’t know what a real organ sounds like!

I am working as an organist right now, and I am lucky enough to have a decent electronic organ. Not a big fancy one, but at least it doesn’t sound fake…haha. I can’t remember what kind of organ it is though…I’ll look at it when I go to Mass today.

In my case I never really thought about playing organ for Mass until relatively recently. In fact, I never considered Church music a career choice for me until probably 2 years ago. In addition, I would have never insisted on more organ at Mass until probably 3-4 years ago. Anyway, piano was my specialty growing up - began in 1st grade. Began playing a little bit of organ at the end of high school - nothing fancy, no pedals - just hymns/antiphons at Mass. Took a year of lessons sophomore year of college, then quit. Then, at the same time I was applying to my current job, began lessons again in earnest, a little over a year ago (my last semester of college). It only took a few months’ worth of practice before I could use the pedal without much (if any) trouble.

This is another comment about making music a priority - but I think that any church-goer who has had any musical training at all should heavily consider helping with Church music. The more talented ones who have had piano lessons (or just those otherwise interested) could attempt to pick up organ; anyone else could sing. Then of course you have to have a competent director. Except for having a well-trained director, I strongly believe that nearly every single parish, even small parishes, have the “man power” to have at least a small choir. Then it’s just a case of making it a priority.

Now, of course this is coming from a Church musician, who does not have a family to take care of. But still, despite that, I think things could be much better than they are today, both in terms of number of volunteers (but of course directors and organists should be paid), quality of music, and style of music.

I hear you, but honestly.
I have been a Church pianist/organist/choir Director for over 30 years. MOST of my life I have not been compensated. The past position I left because it was pretty much me doing everything at every Mass, (including liturgy and environment) and the Pastor and the Finance Director blew up when I asked for a raise. I had been there 16 years…was making 12 thousand a year. I had to have a full time job elsewhere to even make ends meet, and it was a 25 mile commute there. Never once did anyone offer me gas money. People seldom paid me anything for funerals, assuming the church paid me well.
I have always offered my services DESPITE the fact that no one thinks there’s any education or value involved in it. The Finance chair literally said to me "well, you sit down and play the piano…what kind of salary are YOU thinking of?
People think it’s easy.
To this day when I run into people from that parish they practically weep and tell me how much they miss the good music. They’ve hired a Baptist college student who doesn’t understand the Mass. For cheap. Poor kid.
There are plenty of capable people in the pews.
They get treated very poorly or taken advantage of.
People who love good music are in the minority, despite the people on CAF that push the issue. Most people in the pews do not care, one way or another. If it meant they’d have to give more, they’d just as soon skip it all together. The current Director at our parish makes an embarrassingly small amount of money and she has 3 small children. Once, I asked why there no music for a specific celebration, and the Deacon said “well, we pay her so little I didn’t even ask her to come. You wanna play something?”
See? They prey on your good will.
I’m constantly asked to lead the singing or sit down and play. And of course, I have a God-given talent. I really can’t and do not refuse. But it perpetuates that notion that it’s no big deal. No expertise, or that this expertise was easily gained. You can imagine how I feel when the music is awful. it doesn’t have to be that way. But I don’t see it changing anytime soon. Only the HUGE parishes around here have good music of any sort or style. And I mean HUGE. Parishes just can’t work it into their budgets. With so few people contributing, the collections only go so far. It’s not a topic that many parishes even focus on.
Ok, rant over.

 

[DCNBILL]

As long as they put them in a loft in the back of the church with the rest of the choir I am all for it!

 

[pianistclare]

As long as they put them in a loft in the back of the church with the rest of the choir I am all for it!

HA! Add on another 100 grand fro construction of a choir loft.

 

[DCNBILL]

HA! Add on another 100 grand fro construction of a choir loft.

And well worth the money!

 

[cheezey]

Churches also have to considered whether or not they have or can afford a competent organist.

Organs improperly played are like Chant improperly sung. Not heavenly at all.

Agreed.
FYI: We have a fabulous organ and the young man behind it is also fabulous.
And 25 years old.
I know nuthin’ 'bout organs, but some of the pipes are at a 90 degree angle from the others.
Couldn’t fit 'em all?!

 

[pianistclare]

Agreed.
FYI: We have a fabulous organ and the young man behind it is also fabulous.
And 25 years old.
I know nuthin’ 'bout organs, but some of the pipes are at a 90 degree angle from the others.
Couldn’t fit 'em all?!

those are horns. (sounding)

 

[cheezey]

those are horns. (sounding)

really?! See?! Toldya! I know nuthin’. 'cept they can be really loud.
We have an ardent organist. Sometimes that first note blows me outta the church.

 

[bobballen_18]

I hear you, but honestly.
I have been a Church pianist/organist/choir Director for over 30 years. MOST of my life I have not been compensated. The past position I left because it was pretty much me doing everything at every Mass, (including liturgy and environment) and the Pastor and the Finance Director blew up when I asked for a raise. I had been there 16 years…was making 12 thousand a year. I had to have a full time job elsewhere to even make ends meet, and it was a 25 mile commute there. Never once did anyone offer me gas money. People seldom paid me anything for funerals, assuming the church paid me well.
I have always offered my services DESPITE the fact that no one thinks there’s any education or value involved in it. The Finance chair literally said to me "well, you sit down and play the piano…what kind of salary are YOU thinking of?
People think it’s easy.
To this day when I run into people from that parish they practically weep and tell me how much they miss the good music. They’ve hired a Baptist college student who doesn’t understand the Mass. For cheap. Poor kid.
There are plenty of capable people in the pews.
They get treated very poorly or taken advantage of.
People who love good music are in the minority, despite the people on CAF that push the issue. Most people in the pews do not care, one way or another. If it meant they’d have to give more, they’d just as soon skip it all together. The current Director at our parish makes an embarrassingly small amount of money and she has 3 small children. Once, I asked why there no music for a specific celebration, and the Deacon said “well, we pay her so little I didn’t even ask her to come. You wanna play something?”
See? They prey on your good will.
I’m constantly asked to lead the singing or sit down and play. And of course, I have a God-given talent. I really can’t and do not refuse. But it perpetuates that notion that it’s no big deal. No expertise, or that this expertise was easily gained. You can imagine how I feel when the music is awful. it doesn’t have to be that way. But I don’t see it changing anytime soon. Only the HUGE parishes around here have good music of any sort or style. And I mean HUGE. Parishes just can’t work it into their budgets. With so few people contributing, the collections only go so far. It’s not a topic that many parishes even focus on.
Ok, rant over.

I’m sorry about your situation, Clare! That is too bad. Your mentioning the people in the pews not caring is probably mostly correct. And not to be a broken record, but…I think that is something that, if the general mindset of the Church-goers changes, the area of Church music is something that will greatly improve. You’re absolutely right that musicians are undervalued/underpaid in the Church. If I were to make a guess, I’d say that I am paid more than a good number of Church musicians, but going by the American Guild of Organists website standards, I am underpaid.

I know I’m biased, but here’s my take on it: We are attempting to further the New Evangelization in the Catholic Church, are we not? And I think one of the biggest things is restoring marriage and family life within the Catholic Church, which will require correct formation of the human person. Well, correct formation is best obtained in the context of good education. Good education will heavily involve the traditional study of the liberal arts. And one of the liberal arts is music. I believe in the New Evangelization, beauty needs to be emphasized. Beauty in the Truth of the Church and most especially Beauty in the Liturgy, since the Liturgy is the ultimate goal for those we are trying to bring to the Church. It is so sad that most Catholics are robbed of the rich tradition of music within their own Church - indeed, even though this music is the preferred music. Music can be such a powerful tool in our spiritual lives. The Mass used to very often be completely sung, and for a good reason. Music has the power to elevate our minds to heavenly things (apart from simply arising our emotions).

This is why I hope and pray that the Church’s members - both clergy and laity - begin to conform their minds to the mind of the Church, so that every effort is made to make the Church’s preferences, not our own, a reality. I certainly intend to do all I can to further make this hope/prayer a reality. All for the greater glory of God.

 

[pianistclare]

I hear you.
The last place I applied to was horrified when I said I could introduce some chant, and some more sacred music. People talk a big line about traditional music, but they stand comfy with the benign Christian radio station stuff. They also complained that they never sing anything new and the lyrics are bad. DOH~! yeah, got that memo alright. But they were not willing to make even a small shift to re-introduce even regular hymn singing, forget about chant.
Crazy.
There’s really a place for everything, but many places just don’t want to put in ANY effort at all. People, as we see all the time on CAF, tend to not be very open-minded. Either way. I was actually told “we don’t sing those songs…we’re a MODERN parish”. Our Archdiocese held a Church music conference that was awesome. Many great composers and clinicians. The Director at the time said to me “it was awful. Absolutely nothing we could use”. You have to want to use it.
I laughed to myself. Yup. And no one sings, and everyone hates the music. But y’all just keep goin the way you’re goin.

The pastor was afraid the whole choir would quit. But you know what? The great musicians that sit in the pews because they can’t stand the existing music would step up!
But they wouldn’t take that leap of faith. And the existing choir member said later that they would have enjoyed the change. Oh well. I’ve resolved myself that if I want to continue to play in church, I’ll have to just stick to volunteering with the Spanish choir. I’m teaching them to read music. They only use about 5 chords…but they are a happy bunch, eager to learn. Ranchera music, is at least, joyful.

 

[pnewton]

It is a good article and worth considering. I think the first point is especially valid. The second is as well, though I would not that it is not the only instrument that sustains notes and fills the room. An electronic keyboard can do both of these as well.

The other three points I do not agree with. I do not think the range is all that great, as far as being able to be played softly, but that may very well be my ignorance and my experience of never having heard a pipe organ played this way. I also do not agree that it can play a wide range of musical styles or is inexpensive. They are in fact, very expensive, though this is assuming that the article is referring to pipe organs, as that is all it shows and references.

That being said, I wish we had one. There are so many great hymns that the organ just beats the pants off every other instrument. To this end, I have been considering buying an electronic one, as I think it would be better than nothing, out of my own pocket. I still haven’t decide what to do with this idea though.

 

[bobballen_18]

It is a good article and worth considering. I think the first point is especially valid. The second is as well, though I would not that it is not the only instrument that sustains notes and fills the room. An electronic keyboard can do both of these as well.

The other three points I do not agree with. I do not think the range is all that great, as far as being able to be played softly, but that may very well be my ignorance and my experience of never having heard a pipe organ played this way. I also do not agree that it can play a wide range of musical styles or is inexpensive. They are in fact, very expensive, though this is assuming that the article is referring to pipe organs, as that is all it shows and references.

That being said, I wish we had one. There are so many great hymns that the organ just beats the pants off every other instrument. To this end, I have been considering buying an electronic one, as I think it would be better than nothing, out of my own pocket. I still haven’t decide what to do with this idea though.

You know, although I currently work as an organist at a Catholic parish, I’m not an organ expert by any means. But here we go: regarding point #3, organs can most certainly be played softly. You may be correct that some organists play too loud, but it is not always used to blast out every other noise. In any case, I rarely use very loud settings at Mass. The loudest I ever have the organ is when I play a postlude. Otherwise, when I play a postlude, I play a gentle, usually quiet piece; when I accompany a hymn I use different settings, some louder, some softer, but never with the intention of drowning out the congregation; when I accompany the Propers and the Ordinaries they are also usually quite soft. Then, I may not be the norm since I consider myself a “fake organist” and I would rather not drown out the people. But I just want to say not all organists, even outside myself, blast out the people. In any case, with point #3, good organists know that (on good organs, at least) many, many sound combinations can be used. There are three main classes of pipes (regular/I-don’t-know-the-correct-term, flutes, and reeds), and within those classes, there are absolutely many different sounds that can be made, and when combined with the other types of pipes, so many different sounds can be made. This is just a fact about (good) pipe organs - and it is one of the reasons the Church prefers the organ - precisely because of its ability to make a wide range of beautiful music.

Regarding point #4, well, I guess I never mentioned this in my original post. While I agree that, in a certain sense, many different styles of music can be played on the organ, I disagree with his assertion that there are “many styles of music that reside under the umbrella of traditional music”. Or maybe I just don’t like the way he puts it; what I personally mean is that there are NOT many different styles that can be called “sacred” music. As Pius X laid out in 1903, there are three conditions that must be met in order for a certain piece of music to be sacred. Based on those three conditions, there are not “many styles of music” that can be truly called sacred music; Pius X also lays out three types of music, representing three different degrees of sacred music. The music which fully meets these three conditions is Gregorian chant. The next level (lower) is sacred polyphony, exemplified in Renaissance polyphony by composers such as Palestrina. The only other level he mentions of sacred music is “modern music”, by which he meant music composed by contemporary composers, but whose style was still based on the musical tradition within the Church and still met the three conditions. OK, I’ve babbled on enough about that.

Regarding point #5, you’re probably right that in general, real pipe organs are too expensive for parishes today, although he does mention cheaper options for pipe organs rather than getting a completely new one. But as I mentioned before, as far as I know, there are acceptable electronic organ options which are more in the range for which parishes today would be willing to pay. Then again, hopefully in the future people will be more open to spending more of their money on Church endeavors.

 

[pnewton]

Or maybe I just don’t like the way he puts it; what I personally mean is that there are NOT many different styles that can be called “sacred” music. .

I wonder if this point was not made in a circular way, something like, “Pipe organs can play almost any music for Mass because I define music for Mass as being something that could be played on a pipe organ, (plus chant)”

Now while I am at it, does anyone know of any decent but inexpensive keyboard options?

 

[pianistclare]

I wonder if this point was not made in a circular way, something like, “Pipe organs can play almost any music for Mass because I define music for Mass as being something that could be played on a pipe organ, (plus chant)”

Now while I am at it, does anyone know of any decent but inexpensive keyboard options?

Anything less than 20 grand is inexpensive.

 

[ProVobis]

I wonder if this point was not made in a circular way, something like, “Pipe organs can play almost any music for Mass because I define music for Mass as being something that could be played on a pipe organ, (plus chant)”

Now while I am at it, does anyone know of any decent but inexpensive keyboard options?

You probably didn’t mean to imply that pipe organs can play themselves but the sad reality is given the proper mechanism and a programmer who knows something about music (I’m thinking midi-compatible), that can be done. It’s discouraging to all organists and guitarists and pianists but that’s the way it has become.

 

[pianistclare]

You probably didn’t mean to imply that pipe organs can play themselves but the sad reality is given the proper mechanism and a programmer who knows something about music (I’m thinking midi-compatible), that can be done. It’s discouraging to all organists and guitarists and pianists but that’s the way it has become.

Midi files (for entire pieces)are not permitted in Mass though, so that’s not really an issue.
Files of instrumentation are permitted. Organs have them as well.

 

[pnewton]

Anything less than 20 grand is inexpensive.

That is considerably more than I can afford. I was thinking more along the lines of a Korg, Roland or Yamaha.

 

[pianistclare]

That is considerably more than I can afford. I was thinking more along the lines of a Korg, Roland or Yamaha.

Don’t get a Roland. Junk. You’ll really regret it.
Sounds like an organ grinder, I kid you not. Our parish bought one because it had a fancy case. But that’s it. it’s pretty, sounds awful, and the top came unattached form the bottom early on.
Korg is ok if you’re going to interface with a lot of other instruments.
I’d go Yamaha if you’re not going to look at a Kawai.
Any company that makes REAL instruments knows how to make digital instruments. They have a frame of reference for touch, and sound.

 

[pnewton]

Don’t get a Roland. Junk. You’ll really regret it.
Sounds like an organ grinder, I kid you not. Our parish bought one because it had a fancy case. But that’s it. it’s pretty, sounds awful, and the top came unattached form the bottom early on.
Korg is ok if you’re going to interface with a lot of other instruments.
I’d go Yamaha if you’re not going to look at a Kawai.
Any company that makes REAL instruments knows how to make digital instruments. They have a frame of reference for touch, and sound.

Thanks. I know nothing can replace a real pipe organ, but as a way of bringing back this traditional sound, I view it as a start. After all, a better instrument in my hands would be worth nothing. Maybe one day we will have someone who knows to play properly.

 

[pianistclare]

Thanks. I know nothing can replace a real pipe organ, but as a way of bringing back this traditional sound, I view it as a start. After all, a better instrument in my hands would be worth nothing. Maybe one day we will have someone who knows to play properly.

They are easy to play. Operate just like a piano. Pedals and all.
You’ll have to try some out.
Don’t be afraid of getting one with many options fro instrumentation. People think they’ll never use them, but they really come in handy for all kinds of Liturgy.
If you can get a used one with a built in cd burner that helps greatly with rehearsals. I used to burn the choir parts for people, and then when we came together for practice, we spent more time on the ensemble and the blend than pounding out parts. They sing along in the car on their commute.

 

[pianistclare]

Thanks. I know nothing can replace a real pipe organ, but as a way of bringing back this traditional sound, I view it as a start. After all, a better instrument in my hands would be worth nothing. Maybe one day we will have someone who knows to play properly.

Kawai comes close. Just one of their organs is a digital sampling of the Westminster Abbey organ. There are probably 6 organ choices, from Chapel organ, to pipe organ, to home/room size organ. Everything form lush and full to the kind of music you get at wake services.