Practical ways that a wife should be submissive to her husband

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VeritasLuxMea said:
If you remove the poetry, what does that leave us with? A heart does as commanded by the head? That’s the role?

Look, there’s nothing wrong with someone who is a private in the military—or an entry-level worker. Many stay those things for their whole lives. But the one key difference is that a private may aspire and work to become an officer, and an entry-level worker may aspire to be an entrepreneur and work for that, whereas a wife will never be anything more than just a lowly wife, the “heart” that does as she’s told and learns to live with it.

So, to me, the captain/first mate analogy is severely lacking. At least in the case of the first mate, he was not born to be a subordinate. The wife is born lacking, born inferior—because she’s the wrong gender. Nothing about merit, nothing about character, no—she’s just the wrong gender.

I caution you again that these are the same types of arguments that were made by the owners of chattel slaves. There’s nothing wrong with persons of a certain skin color, they were just made that way, that’s their destiny as designed by God. Of course, when the institution was abolished here in the States for example, we learned that there’s nothing about skin color that makes one inherently inferior and, in fact, persons of the “wrong” skin color could be quite efficacious in any field that persons of the “right” one could be. Likewise, we have recently produced an enormous amount of evidence that suggests women are not, in fact, like children. That they have capabilities and that they have worth, just as a man does.

If you want me to believe that women are inferior to men by birth due to their gender, please don’t also pull this phoney baloney stuff about how wonderful women are and if I would only appreciate their “true” value all would be right in the world.
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To be fair, no one here who is advocating for the headship of the husband is saying that women by virtue of their sex are inferior to men, nor are they saying that wives be seen as perpetual minors.
 
Each human being is composed by a body, by a soul and by a heart.

The male body, the male soul, the male heart: yes, each man has a heart!!!

The female body, the female soul and the female heart; yes, each woman has a brain!!!

Let’s stop with the war of sexes!!!
 
Walking_Home said:
Your are stepping into fundamentalist protestant territory. The Catholic Church has interpreted scripture – as the mutual subjection of the spouses – in reverence to God. This equality of subjection – husband subject to the wife/wife subject to the husband – does not give “headship” to the husband.
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Nope. Not a all. My degree in Theology is from Steubenville not Bob Jones!

Yes lets look to the Magisterium!

26 Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there
should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes
both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready
subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these
words: “Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is
the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church.”"

~ Pope Pius IX Encyclical Casti Connubi
  1. This subjection,however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully
    belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her
    most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her
    husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to
    wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons
    who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their
    rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs.
    But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it
    forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the
    great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin."
~ Pope Pius IX Encyclical Casti Connubi

This is all in Love! In service! In Sacrifice!
 
Bookcat said:
A heart - loves.

As Pope Pius IX noted the wife “ought to claim for herself the chief place in love”

The list of the gifts and aspects of the vocation of the wife and mother I imagine are very long…one cannot recount them all in a forum (or perhaps in even in ones lifetime).

Yes there is an order in love…an order in family…but at the very heart of a family …is the Wife the Mother! Her love!

Who was “submissive” as a wife in the most perfect way? Mary

Immaculate Heart of Mary …pray for us.
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But isn’t the husband also supposed to love?

For me, love is a decision of the will, not an emotional thing, not a heart thing. Anyway it’s a bit out of topic.
 
Sarcelle said:
But isn’t the husband also supposed to love?

For me, love is a decision of the will, not an emotional thing, not a heart thing. Anyway it’s a bit out of topic.
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Yes! see Paul on that too! And sacrifice (though of course the wife too sacrifices)
 
Bookcat said:
Nope. Not a all. My degree in Theology is from Steubenville not Bob Jones!

Yes lets look to the Magisterium!

26 Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there
should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes
both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready
subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these
words: “Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is
the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church.”"

~ Pope Pius IX Encyclical Casti Connubi
  1. This subjection,however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully
    belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her
    most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her
    husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to
    wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons
    who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their
    rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs.
    But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it
    forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the
    great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin."
~ Pope Pius IX Encyclical Casti Connubi
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After reading, in my humble opinion, we can state that the conclusion is the mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, reasonable, equal and equitable submission of spouses: not more and not less. The rule of reason is the last rule.

The moderation, balance, reason and justice are the keys. EQUITY AND EQUALITY
 
Bookcat said:
Yes! see Paul on that too! And sacrifice (though of course the wife too sacrifices)
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Exactly. When I was in boot camp I used to have a drill instructor that was fond of saying, “There is no I in team.”. The husband and wife are a team and both sacrifice for each other.
 
Bookcat said:
Nope. Not a all.** My degree in Theology is from Steubenville not Bob Jones!**

Yes lets look to the Magisterium!

26 Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there
should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes
both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready
subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these
words: “Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is
the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church.”"

~ Pope Pius IX Encyclical Casti Connubi
27. This subjection,however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully
belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her
most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her
husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to
wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons
who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their
rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs.
But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it
forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the
great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin."

~ Pope Pius IX Encyclical Casti Connubi
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I’ll bank with the ones who are the actually in charge of interpreting scripture etc. Again – no matter what machinations — the Church as authoritative teaching – does not include headship of the husband over the wife.
 
Walking_Home said:
I’ll bank with the ones who are the actually in charge of interpreting scripture etc. Again – no matter what machinations — the Church as authoritative teaching – does not include headship of the husband over the wife.
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Yes it does (see above and other places)

And Yes they do.

The word “over” though is not part of things. Not the way to put it.

brantpitre.com/excerpts.html

“Wives do what?”

Dr. Pitre
Professor of Sacred Scripture
Notre Dame Seminary
 
Walking_Home said:
Repeating it no matter how many times-- does not change – that Church teaching does not give “headship” to the husband.
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God did. The Church just teaches that he did. Repeating that it is not the Teaching is not going to change the reality that it is. See above.

The difficulty comes in when one misunderstands what that means -it is not that the husband orders the wife around or treats her like a servant or slave or what not.

And he is to be head as Christ is head - give his blood! for his bride.
 
How in the world is marriage supposed to be a sign of Christ and His Church (i.e. His Bride) if Christian marriage does not include headship of the husband? It becomes a nonsensical sign if it is stripped of any ideas of headship.
 
Remember as Pope Francis pointed out (in references to Priests):

“Those who are ordained are placed at the head of the community. They are “at the head”, yes, but for Jesus this means placing ones authority at the service , as Jesus himself showed and taught his disciples…” March 2014 emp. added
 
severus68 said:
Do you think then that Saint JPII was absurd , since he said marriage is about mutual subjection?

All, men and women, should follow Christ and model themselves on what Christ was and taught. By taking Christ out of the equation for women, you are basically stating that women are lesser than men, that Christ excluded women.
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I did not take Christ out of the equation for women. Good grief. Do you think that because a priest acts as the head of his parish, that he is the only one in the parish acting as Christ, and all the rest of the baptized are “something else,” some lower sort of being not called to “real” sanctity or “real” self-sacrifice? When Christ says that someone who wants to lead is to be the servant of all, was he saying that only leaders must imitate Christ? Of course not.
 
AnnArbor said:
I have been reading this thread with absolute fascination. The idea that maleness conveys some sort of ‘headship’ or spiritual authority in the family is bizarre to me. I didn’t know anyone interpreted Ephesians 5 literally, any more than I assumed people were literally interpreting Ephesians 6 in order to determine how to treat their slaves.
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OK, read it figuratively, then. Read it metaphorically. Read it any way you like. Just explain why Ephesians describes a wife one way and a husband another way. What is the difference between a man and a woman in a Christian marriage? You explain it.
 
Bookcat said:
Remember as Pope Francis pointed out (in references to Priests):

“Those who are ordained are placed at the head of the community. They are “at the head”, yes, but for Jesus this means placing ones authority at the service , as Jesus himself showed and taught his disciples…” March 2014 emp. added
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Marriage does not ordain a man. Both men and women form the bride of Christ – the Church. Marriage – dies not raise a man – to take up the position of headship – which is for God alone. A married man – continues to be part of the bride of Christ.
 
Walking_Home said:
Marriage does not ordain a man. Both men and women form the bride of Christ – the Church. Marriage – dies not raise a man – to take up the position of headship – which is for God alone. A married man – continues to be part of the bride of Christ.
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The point of that post was missed. It was referring to the term “head” is rather much about service. Authority among Christians be it that of Pope, or Priest or Husband or Mother is about service.

The misunderstanding of headship is at the root of not accepting that Sacred Scripture (the inspired Word of God) and the Church since the time of the Apostles teaches that yes the Husband is the head.

Saying that the husband as a Christian is part of the Bride of Christ (the Church) does not remove the reality that as husband he is head of his wife. Just as the Priest-Pastor is part of the Bride of Christ as a Christian but is head as Pastor or as Bishop or as Pope (who is still the Servant of the Servants of God).

The point in quoting the Pope there was that “head” has to do not with “Lording it over” others but with service. Authority for the sake of -for the good of the wife and family. The husband is head - and is thus servant - to give his blood.
 
“the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church”

~ Ephesians 5:23 RSVCE

“head”- kefalé - in terms of the husband as head of the wife -does not mean there a role of master to slaves, or boss to employees, or even parent to child! One must remove any such understanding.

Rather - Servant leadership (serving the others!- at the service of the good of the wife and family). As Christ washed the feet of his disciples.

If one reads the full context -it rather involves the laying down of ones life for the beloved…the giving of ones blood…
 
Walking_Home said:
Marriage does not ordain a man. Both men and women form the bride of Christ – the Church. Marriage – dies not raise a man – to take up the position of headship – which is for God alone. A married man – continues to be part of the bride of Christ.
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Nothing can change the organic order in creation though. It was Thomas Aquinas who said that divine law presupposes natural law (as grace presupposes nature). If there is no organic meaning in the world of relationships we should equally be saying that as both men and women share in the priesthood of Christ, women should also be Priests. Again, if female and male are merely symbolic in marital union, then a feminine man should be allowed to marry a masculine man.
 
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