Practical ways that a wife should be submissive to her husband

[danavee]

When the wife disagrees with the husband, in what respects must she in the end submit to him?

In my view, only in the same respects that my right hand must submit to my left.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

Adults who can’t negotiate or engage in joint decision making should not get married. They lack the basis communication strategies necessary for holding a part-time job at a convenience store much less having a spouse and raising kids.

Disagreements over vacations and family rosary time aren’t the problem - they’re symptoms of some underlying issues in the marriage. Because, seriously, if a spouse can turn the rosary or Disneyland into A Very Big Deal Requiring the Wisdom of St. Paul, something’s going on in the marriage that’s unrelated to religion.

I’ve always marveled at those who believe your genitialia set parameters on decision making. What do these people believe happens when the husband dies, or becomes mentally incapacitated, or gets deployed? Moreover, why would anyone marry someone they can’t make mundane life decisions with?

 

[St_Francis]

I am aware of the rest of Ephesians and agree completely. But this is not the subject of this thread. I’m trying to get everybody to really think about this issue from the wife’s perspective only. I’ll start another thread next week about the husband’s responsibilities.

But to respond you your post…Even if the husband isn’t perfectly imitating Christ and is not treating his wife exactly like Christ treated the Church, the wife should still be subject to her husband. And the husband should love his wife like Christ loved the Church even if she has her faults.

I’m sorry, I did not understand your intention.

 

[bisco]

how long have you been married? mutual respect comes from good communication and loving conversation. while there will always be some conflict, cooperation and compromise should rule the day. is she involved and understanding of your finances and budget situation? have you made a habit of praying together in different ways since you got married? you may want to sit down with your pastor and discuss these things with him. in 36 years of blessed marriage, (not without it’s bumps in the road) we have never once had to refer to that quote.
blessings.

 

[Xantippe]

Luna Lovecraft said:

“Moreover, why would anyone marry someone they can’t make mundane life decisions with?”

Right.

If the husband married a prudent and virtuous woman, she will make reasonable decisions.

If the husband did not marry a prudent and virtuous woman who makes reasonable decisions, maybe his decision-making isn’t so hot, either.

 

[Sunbreak]

Marriage is not a situation where one person gets to do power plays over another. If your wife doesn’t agree with you, it is a matter for discussion, not “I should automatically get my way because I am the husband.”

 

[His_helpmeet]

I think too many people confuse “submission” with “doormat”. I am a submissive wife, but I think my husband would be the first to tell you I am not a doormat! Some examples of how I submit to him:

1. Usually when he comes to me to suggest something, he’ll phrase it as: “I don’t know what you think, but…” and then I give my response.
2. There are days he has ahem needs, and I don’t always feel like fulfilling those needs. But I submit to him out of love. (Note: he has NEVER forced me in this regard.)
3. He leads prayer in our family, as the spiritual priest of the family.

We always make big decisions together. It’s a poor husband who would not consider the counsel of his wife. At the end of the day, I think what people forget is that he is still accountable to HIS Boss: “the head of the woman is the man, and the head of the man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God.” Consequently he will be judged according to how he has led his family, as the boss. This is why marriage requires discernment and prayer.

 

[Xantippe]

I think it’s ugly to be thinking too much about how to get the maximum juice out of Ephesians 5 for one’s own benefit.

We’ve already talked about the unseemliness of a husband’s trying to figure out how much submission he can squeeze out of his wife.

Consider, for a contrasting situation, how unseemly it would be for a wife to try to figure out how much she could get out of “love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.” “Honey, I know your doctor said you’re in danger of having another heart attack and dying if you work too hard, but I need you to work some more overtime for the girls’ dance outfits and cheer camp and a new laptop for me. Ephesians 5!”

It seems much more fitting for each spouse to think about the verses directed at them, rather than thinking about what more they can get out of their spouse.

 

[Avocadomom]

I think it’s ugly to be thinking too much about how to get the maximum juice out of Ephesians 5 for one’s own benefit.

We’ve already talked about the unseemliness of a husband’s trying to figure out how much submission he can squeeze out of his wife.

Consider, for a contrasting situation, how unseemly it would be for a wife to try to figure out how much she could get out of “love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.” “Honey, I know your doctor said you’re in danger of having another heart attack and dying if you work too hard, but I need you to work some more overtime for the girls’ dance outfits and cheer camp and a new laptop for me. Ephesians 5!”

It seems much more fitting for each spouse to think about the verses directed at them, rather than thinking about what more they can get out of their spouse.

Exactly. For me, as a wife, I sometimes defer to my husband out of love. He does the same for me. Instead of working the scriptures to prove a point or get stuff, take the spirit of the message and love your spouse. If your marriage is healthy, you are both working to please one another and no one needs to use the Bible to demand his or her way.

 

[LongingSoul]

I think it’s ugly to be thinking too much about how to get the maximum juice out of Ephesians 5 for one’s own benefit.

We’ve already talked about the unseemliness of a husband’s trying to figure out how much submission he can squeeze out of his wife.

Consider, for a contrasting situation, how unseemly it would be for a wife to try to figure out how much she could get out of “love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.” “Honey, I know your doctor said you’re in danger of having another heart attack and dying if you work too hard, but I need you to work some more overtime for the girls’ dance outfits and cheer camp and a new laptop for me. Ephesians 5!”

It seems much more fitting for each spouse to think about the verses directed at them, rather than thinking about what more they can get out of their spouse.

I feel that your analogy serves to subscribe an attitude to the OP that I didn’t really detect. The divorce rate in the west is nearly 50 % of all marriages even among Catholics and that’s the world we are sending our children into. The modern standard while it has addressed some of the injustices of the past between men and women, has thrown the baby out with the bath water. It’s a common thing for younger people to be revolted by the submissiveness of their mothers in marriage as they see it as a crime against women but they don’t look at the big picture. The battle of the sexes for power has left the family a limping disfunctional aspect of society. Family stability is secondary to the rights of a man or woman in the marriage these days and that’s bad for everyone.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

Well, no, it is not that simple at all! This a very common misconception, and it causes all sorts of problems!

When you compare secular authority to the authority of a Christian husband in his own home, you are talking apples and birds! A Christian wife is directed to submit to her husband “as to the Lord” and the husband is directed to be to her as Christ is to the Church! That is fundamentally different than the ways of secular authority and obedience. The Lord repeatedly made himself clear on that point.

I should not have used the word “simple” I guess. I do agree that there is a difference between the authority of a husband towards his wife and the authority of a state towards a citizen. I thought this would be obvious so I did not mention it. Yes, I agree with you on this.

In other words, if you are *extracting *submission or using some other kind of force to obtain it from your wife or children–the extreme example of the cleansing of the Temple being the exceptional circumstance where that which is unacceptable may be forcibly excluded–then you are not holding your authority as a husband according to the example of Christ.

This is what I posted earlier (see below). I am not and have not stated that I am extracting submission from anybody. The question is simple: If the husband and wife disagree on something, what do you do? I think Paul is very clear that the husband is the head.

For the sake of this thread let’s just assume the husband is passive in his leadership position. He suggests something and the wife is given the free choice to submit to his decision or not. There is no dragging of anybody by the hair.

So the question remains, if they disagree about my two examples, should she submit in the end?

 

[yellow8yellowM]

Adults who can’t negotiate or engage in joint decision making should not get married. They lack the basis communication strategies necessary for holding a part-time job at a convenience store much less having a spouse and raising kids.

Disagreements over vacations and family rosary time aren’t the problem - they’re symptoms of some underlying issues in the marriage. Because, seriously, if a spouse can turn the rosary or Disneyland into A Very Big Deal Requiring the Wisdom of St. Paul, something’s going on in the marriage that’s unrelated to religion.

I’ve always marveled at those who believe your genitialia set parameters on decision making. What do these people believe happens when the husband dies, or becomes mentally incapacitated, or gets deployed? Moreover, why would anyone marry someone they can’t make mundane life decisions with?

Marriage is not a situation where one person gets to do power plays over another. If your wife doesn’t agree with you, it is a matter for discussion, not "I should automatically get my way because I am the husband."

Okay, then how do you interpret Ephesians 5:24? What do you do if there is a real disagreement?

Also, I used the two examples for the sake of the conversation. Let’s please be civil here and leave out the accusations, etc.

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

People marry individuals, unique people with their own strengths and weaknesses and likes and dislikes. They don’t marry positions, offices, or roles. Couples in strong marriages, in my experience, work within these parameters and don’t rely on gender to determine who does when it comes being married and raising kids.

When a woman starts thinking she has to think and behave a certain way because “she’s the wife” and the husband thinks he needs to be a certain way because “he’s the husband,” people stop being who they are and start acting a role. If if that happens to be a role you’re not suited to, a role that does nothing to make you a good life partner or a good parent, how is that in the best interests of you, your marriage, your spiritual life, or your family? It’s an inauthentic way to live, imo.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

I think it’s ugly to be thinking too much about how to get the maximum juice out of Ephesians 5 for one’s own benefit.

We’ve already talked about the unseemliness of a husband’s trying to figure out how much submission he can squeeze out of his wife.

I feel that your analogy serves to subscribe an attitude to the OP that I didn’t really detect.

Thank you LongingSoul. This is true. As I stated earlier, I am honestly trying to figure out what to do when real disagreements come up. I also stated twice that I am not demanding submission. I did not attach a poll to this thread, but I bet that the vast majority of Christian marriages are made up of two spouses who either have never read/heard Ephesians 5 or that that read/heard it and just disregard out of hand.

In this thread, I was trying to find “Practical ways that a wife should be submissive to her husband.” Please do not read too much into this. Please, if you are a wife who does submit to her husband as in Ephesians 5, let us all know how this works in practice. Thank you to all who have done so already.

 

[yellow8yellowM]

Has everybody read this section of Casti Connubii? The encyclical he references is Arcanum by Pope Leo XIII.

Casti Connubii (Encyclical by Pope Pius XI)

1. By this same love it is necessary that all the other rights and duties of the marriage state be regulated as the words of the Apostle: “Let the husband render the debt to the wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband,”[28] express not only a law of justice but of charity.

1. Domestic society being confirmed, therefore, by this bond of love, there should flourish in it that “order of love,” as St. Augustine calls it. This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: “Let women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ is the head of the Church.”[29]

1. This subjection, however, does not deny or take away the liberty which fully belongs to the woman both in view of her dignity as a human person, and in view of her most noble office as wife and mother and companion; nor does it bid her obey her husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife; nor, in fine, does it imply that the wife should be put on a level with those persons who in law are called minors, to whom it is not customary to allow free exercise of their rights on account of their lack of mature judgment, or of their ignorance of human affairs. But it forbids that exaggerated liberty which cares not for the good of the family; it forbids that in this body which is the family, the heart be separated from the head to the great detriment of the whole body and the proximate danger of ruin. For if the man is the head, the woman is the heart, and as he occupies the chief place in ruling, so she may and ought to claim for herself the chief place in love.

1. Again, this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to the different conditions of persons, place and time. In fact, if the husband neglect his duty, it falls to the wife to take his place in directing the family. But the structure of the family and its fundamental law, established and confirmed by God, must always and everywhere be maintained intact .

1. With great wisdom Our predecessor Leo XIII, of happy memory, in the Encyclical on Christian marriage which We have already mentioned, speaking of this order to be maintained between man and wife, teaches: “The man is the ruler of the family, and the head of the woman; but because she is flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone, let her be subject and obedient to the man, not as a servant but as a companion, so that nothing be lacking of honor or of dignity in the obedience which she pays. Let divine charity be the constant guide of their mutual relations, both in him who rules and in her who obeys, since each bears the image, the one of Christ, the other of the Church.”[30]

 

[Luna_Lovecraft]

Okay, then how do you interpret Ephesians 5:24? What do you do if there is a real disagreement?

Also, I used the two examples for the sake of the conversation. Let’s please be civil here and leave out the accusations, etc.

In my own mariage, if there is an actual disagreement - something life changing, not petty - we talk and we talk and we talk until we come to a mutual agreement. We compromise. Sometimes we seek the advice of people who know us well and whose knowledge and wisdom we respect.

What we don’t do is act unilaterally or use our genitals as a trump card. That’s very manipulative, imo.

 

[LongingSoul]

In my own mariage, if there is an actual disagreement - something life changing, not petty - we talk and we talk and we talk until we come to a mutual agreement. We compromise. Sometimes we seek the advice of people who know us well and whose knowledge and wisdom we respect.

What we don’t do is act unilaterally or use our genitals as a trump card. That’s very manipulative, imo.

Heavens, I think you mean use our gender as a trump card. I have an image of some man … anyway…

The marriages I admire most are those who produce strong families. The children grow into adults who have close ties with their parents and have close ties and fun with each other and their respective families. I can think of two such wonderful families in my close circle and both are husbands that are strong (even leaning towards headstrong) and ironically, both wives began in their marriages as somewhat of shrews (I say that with affection because I really love and admire both my sister in law and a best friend) I think both those marriages grew into the ideal over time with lots of battles on the way. Both women have trust and respect for their husbands leadership and their healthy submission doesn’t look in the least like a doormat. Both the men are men that I find attractive as ideal husband material… (conceptually as one is my brother).

It will be interesting to see how their children make marriage matches and whether it translates into a strength for the next generation. But they do stand out as somewhat different marriages to the many genderless type couples who don’t really exude that biblical dynamic.

 

[danavee]

The question is simple: If the husband and wife disagree on something, what do you do?

What reasonable adults in any other situation do- compromise. In practice, that would mean that sometimes the husband “wins” and sometimes the wife “wins” (though if you’re approaching a marital problem from any viewpoint other than to hopefully come to a win/win solution, I think that might require some soul searching)

The only one who should get his way all the time is God.

 

[Corki]

But assuming you disagree in the end, what do you do? Assuming the husband is suggesting something that does not violate the woman or family’s dignity or God’ law, then I think the wife should submit to the husband’s decision.

If you still do not agree, you follow the option that is least disruptive to the other and to the family.

Disneyworld, you can postpone spending the money - that it the least disruptive.

Adding a Rosary - you can say the rosary yourself and invite (not insist) others in the family to join you. That is the least disruptive.

Submission in a marriage is a lot like the right of way in traffic. You can never claim the right of way, only have it yielded to you. You likewise can’t assert submission on the part of your wife but she may offer it to you. First you have to make sure you are fulling 110% those Bible verses.

 

[LongingSoul]

Submission in a marriage is a lot like the right of way in traffic. You can never claim the right of way, only have it yielded to you. You likewise can’t assert submission on the part of your wife but she may offer it to you. First you have to make sure you are fulling 110% those Bible verses.

Does that apply also to the Christlike love of a husband as per the same verses? Could we equally say…

Christlike love in a marriage is a lot like the right of way in traffic. You can never claim the right of way, only have it yielded to you. You likewise can’t assert Christlike love on the part of your husband but he may offer it to you. First you have to make sure you are fulfilling 110% those Bible verses regarding submission.

I don’t think it was meant to be a competition and I think it should be fair to express our need to be respected in the biblical way, to our spouse.