Practical ways that a wife should be submissive to her husband

[Avocadomom]

All I can say is that Catholics are not bound to a literalist interpretation of the Bible.

You have to take these verses in context of the times they were written in. The notion of a husband giving up his life for his wife was probably the equivalent of radical feminism 2000 years ago. I see it as a starting point for the liberalization of women’s lives from one of complete servitude. It broke women loose from the paradigm of that era.

What did God really intend from those verses? Well I like to think that He intended to give them dignity. How else can we interpret that husbands should love their wives like Christ loved them? Christ gave up His life for those He loved.

Certainly the notion of women’s dignity has evolved over time. They’re no longer mere chattel. There was a time when even women’s vote was considered a radical notion. God had to start that ball rolling in the context of St. Paul’s era.

It’s easy to take a fundamentalist’s view of The Bible when it suits your desires, a contextualist’s view when you’d like to have some flexibility.

Ultimately God wants people to stay married. I don’t look at a woman who has maintained a 50-year-union and ask “But were you submissive enough to your man?” I say, “However it was that you made your marriage successful, good on you.”

 

[Avocadomom]

We as wives are the heart of the family. Our husbands are the head. The heart influences the head, but when it is all said and done, someone must call the shots, and that someone is the head. All we are asked to do us submit to our husbands. We are not told we must allow them to wipe their feet on us or use us as punching bags. St. Paul is very clear that husbands must live FOR their wives. Everything they do must be for the benefit of the family as a whole, and specifically for the wife. As wives we must acknowledge the leadership of our husbands support his decisions. We can work on getting him to change his mind to our own way of seeing things, and if he is doing as St. Paul instructs he will be receptive to this and work towards this himself. His role is to lay down his life for his wife’s life. But when the final decision is reached, the wife must accept this and support him.

Honestly, in 16 years of marriage my husband has used his role as husband to call the shots exactly twice. Both times I immediately submitted. There is no power struggle between us because we each know our mission in life. We agree on the mission. We have a common goal in mind and we know what needs to happen to get there. As his wife if I make a request (which happens a few times each year), he does everything in his power to comply with my requests. He realizes that a happy wife makes for a happy home. I realize that if I try hard to do the little things the way he likes he never gets demanding or demeaning, and he has no reason to “pull rank” on me. He would never dream of flat out denying me of a request without attempting to make it happen, and I would never ask something of him that I knew would be impossible for him to produce. Since I know he does everything I need him to do in order to care god our family, I know I can trust him enough to allow him the final word. All organizations have to have a chain of command. Someone needs to be decision maker when no compromise can be found and when feelings become hurt, especially when a decision must be made and time is up. During everyday life, each spouse lives for the other, but there comes a time when someone must be the submissive one. Scripture tells us that someone is the wife.

I have not found in my marriage (almost as long as yours) that one person needs to be top dog or “call the shots.” I actually find the idea frightening. We decide together, even if it takes a long time to decide. It really is not a problem for the husband and wife to share headship of the household, if both people are loving and reasonable. Sure, I have my “domains” and he, his. I submit that he is better equipped to choose the new lawnmower or computer, he submits that I am more suited to make medical decisions for the children or plan birthday parties.

Having said that, I married very smartly. I married someone who has the same goals, values, dreams and point of view as I do. He is not impulsive, impractical or bullheaded. We simply don’t have big disagreements because we are so compatible as partners. I really can’t imagine a scenario where we’d have a serious disagreement.

I do not agree that scripture says wives have to submit to their husbands, any more than I believe we should stone adulterers to death.

 

[bitterhope]

How rude. It’s not materialistic to want a home that is in nice condition. The home is where many women do the vast majority of their life’s work. Although there are things more important that a nice home, it’s not materialistic to want to raise your family in a pleasing environment.

Actually it goes to show how many wants are now mistaken as needs, and how appearances trump the actual functioning in families and peoples lives in general. Many people would consider it rude to play it off that people in third world countries also focus on such petty things as paint color when just having a functioning indoor toilet at all is a dream beyond reach. It’s scary how disconnected people seem to be anymore that this can appear anything but materialistic.

 

[EasterJoy]

Yes, and yes, in answer to your questions. Your wife must submit to you, unless you ask her to violate God’s law.

We would do a husband wrong, however, if we told him he was the head of his household without cautioning him about the seriousness of his position, don’t you think? The choice is not between the husband running everything or the couple running everything together or reaching decisions by repeated struggles or debates between them or even the wife sometimes being the spouse who runs everything. The choice is between those models, which are the world’s models, and the choice of ordering a household that belongs to God.

A Christian family belongs to God, not to the husband, nor even to the married couple. Christian husband is bound to hold authority as a steward of a house that belongs to the Lord, and his wife is remiss in her duty to help him become a saint if she allows him to abuse his authority without admonishment. She is remiss in her own duty if she avoids making admonishments in order to avoid conflicts, preferring to appease her husband instead of pleasing God.

*“Who, then, is the faithful and prudent servant, whom the master has put in charge of his household to distribute to them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master on his arrival finds doing so. Amen, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property. But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is long delayed,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants, and eat and drink with drunkards, the servant’s master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour and will punish him severely and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.” *Matt. 24:45-51

A husband who would allow his wife to become his underling, not honoring her as he ought to or who neglects to rely on the aptitudes God gave her as he ought is not fulfilling his duty in the home. His wife, likewise, will be failing in her duty as his helpmate if she does not have the courage to remind him not that he owes it to her to listen to her, but to remind him that they owe it to God to submit themselves to one another out of reverence for Christ.

 

[EasterJoy]

Actually it goes to show how many wants are now mistaken as needs, and how appearances trump the actual functioning in families and peoples lives in general. Many people would consider it rude to play it off that people in third world countries also focus on such petty things as paint color when just having a functioning indoor toilet at all is a dream beyond reach. It’s scary how disconnected people seem to be anymore that this can appear anything but materialistic.

Aesthetic sensibility is not the sign of a materialistic person. People in 3rd world countries do care about paint color. Look at the clothing in poorer countries. They don’t dress like the Communists. They choose colors that will put some zest in to their lives!

Color can lift or dampen the spirit, and everyone in the world knows it. (Well, everyone except the color-blind people who install pink sinks and purple carpeting in bathrooms.)

 

[Sarcelle]

We would do a husband wrong, however, if we told him he was the head of his household without cautioning him about the seriousness of his position, don’t you think? The choice is not between the husband running everything or the couple running everything together or reaching decisions by repeated struggles or debates between them or even the wife sometimes being the spouse who runs everything. The choice is between those models, which are the world’s models, and the choice of ordering a household that belongs to God.

A Christian family belongs to God, not to the husband, nor even to the married couple. Christian husband is bound to hold authority as a steward of a house that belongs to the Lord, and his wife is remiss in her duty to help him become a saint if she allows him to abuse his authority without admonishment. She is remiss in her own duty if she avoids making admonishments in order to avoid conflicts, preferring to appease her husband instead of pleasing God.

*“Who, then, is the faithful and prudent servant, whom the master has put in charge of his household to distribute to them their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whom his master on his arrival finds doing so. Amen, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property. But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is long delayed,’ and begins to beat his fellow servants, and eat and drink with drunkards, the servant’s master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour and will punish him severely and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.” *Matt. 24:45-51

A husband who would allow his wife to become his underling, not honoring her as he ought to or who neglects to rely on the aptitudes God gave her as he ought is not fulfilling his duty in the home. His wife, likewise, will be failing in her duty as his helpmate if she does not have the courage to remind him not that he owes it to her to listen to her, but to remind him that they owe it to God to submit themselves to one another out of reverence for Christ.

A true leader should never be a micromanager.

 

[bitterhope]

I have not found in my marriage (almost as long as yours) that one person needs to be top dog or “call the shots.” I actually find the idea frightening. We decide together, even if it takes a long time to decide. It really is not a problem for the husband and wife to share headship of the household, if both people are loving and reasonable. Sure, I have my “domains” and he, his. I submit that he is better equipped to choose the new lawnmower or computer, he submits that I am more suited to make medical decisions for the children or plan birthday parties.

Having said that, I married very smartly. I married someone who has the same goals, values, dreams and point of view as I do. He is not impulsive, impractical or bullheaded. We simply don’t have big disagreements because we are so compatible as partners. I really can’t imagine a scenario where we’d have a serious disagreement.

I do not agree that scripture says wives have to submit to their husbands, any more than I believe we should stone adulterers to death.

Well I’m glad life hasn’t given you any unfortunate situations as of yet where a decision must be made and there is not days or months or years in order carefully sort through to a compromise. I pray it remains so for you and your family. It isn’t something we deal with often, but so far twice it has happened for us, and I am glad that my husband is a good decision maker under pressure.

My husband has never dominated me. It’s funny even thinking about because he isn’t home enough to dominate anything. He is confident that I will care for things in a way he is comfortable while he is gone, and I am confident enough that he isn’t going to pull rank on me or micromanaging every aspect of our lives from half way around the world, or blow up over my decisions once he comes home.

 

[PhiloMed]

Isn’t the purpose of marriage to have a loving family and help the other spouse get into heaven? Regardless of who submits to whom, ultimately the couple needs to determine what actually works for them. You can have a very submissive wife to a very domineering husband who hates it and is miserable. Or a submissive wife who always defers to her husband and he hates having that role. Why in the world should one be unhappy because of a literal interpretation of Ephesians? Is it better that the marriage dissolve or that they find a way to make their marriage work in the modern era?

Marriages come in as many flavors as the people in them.

In mine, we have unconsciously assigned duties to each other based on our best abilities and preferences (finance, cooking, organization, travel etc). I suppose one could say I submit to my husband on some matters, just as he submits to me on others. These are our preferences. Maybe if we replace the word “submit” with “defer” it is less emotionally charged.

On the outside, it would probably look like I never submit to him in any regard. We have different last names and separate checking accounts. If I want a new bag, new clothing or even a car I just buy it. There is no need for a discussion and he really wouldn’t want to hear about it anyway. As long as our household bills are paid and our savings is in order he has no interest in how I spend the money I made. He has the same freedom to do as he pleases as long as our agreed-upon family expenses are covered. For other people, this would never work and everything goes into a communal pool, and every purchase over X dollars is discussed.

In reality there are many things I’m just not good at. Investments, finance, remembering to save important documents and a host of others. I happily turn this over to him. He happily turns over other aspects to me such as medical care, many things related to our children, planning travel and any family events just to name a few.

These threads always reach multiple pages within a day or two, but the points I wanted to make are
-ultimately what’s important is that the marriage works and benefits the entire family
-I’m always reminded that I’m very lucky to not be married to some people here on CAF

 

[The_Bucket]

What bold man here will start the “Practical ways that a husband should love his wife just as Christ loved the Church” thread?

 

[Avocadomom]

Well I’m glad life hasn’t given you any unfortunate situations as of yet where a decision must be made and there is not days or months or years in order carefully sort through to a compromise. I pray it remains so for you and your family. It isn’t something we deal with often, but so far twice it has happened for us, and I am glad that my husband is a good decision maker under pressure.

My husband has never dominated me. It’s funny even thinking about because he isn’t home enough to dominate anything. He is confident that I will care for things in a way he is comfortable while he is gone, and I am confident enough that he isn’t going to pull rank on me or micromanaging every aspect of our lives from half way around the world, or blow up over my decisions once he comes home.

Life has handed us blessings and misfortunes. We’ve dealt with all the usual stuff - financial problems, career decisions, moves, medical emergencies, discipline issues with the kids, ongoing health related issues, extended family drama… I’ve just never felt the need for one of us to have a trump card over the other. When decisions have a timetable, we simply make the decision quickly. Together. But, I chose my husband very carefully and we are very compatible. Not only would we likely never have a big disagreement, we also know when to let the party with the greater interest have the last word.

 

[Avocadomom]

Actually it goes to show how many wants are now mistaken as needs, and how appearances trump the actual functioning in families and peoples lives in general. Many people would consider it rude to play it off that people in third world countries also focus on such petty things as paint color when just having a functioning indoor toilet at all is a dream beyond reach. It’s scary how disconnected people seem to be anymore that this can appear anything but materialistic.

And yet here you are, arguing on an internet forum.

Somebody will always have it worse. That does not mean we can’t care about anything but mere survival.

 

[The_Bucket]

Life has handed us blessings and misfortunes. We’ve dealt with all the usual stuff - financial problems, career decisions, moves, medical emergencies, discipline issues with the kids, ongoing health related issues, extended family drama… I’ve just never felt the need for one of us to have a trump card over the other. When decisions have a timetable, we simply make the decision quickly. Together. But, I chose my husband very carefully and we are very compatible. Not only would we likely never have a big disagreement, we also know when to let the party with the greater interest have the last word.

And having a definitive “shot callers” who rarely if ever invokes that “right” works for them. We’re all different people. What seems scary and potentially domineering to you might seem comforting for someone else. The fact that the other poster’s husband used that “right” twice in 16 years is evidence that he takes it seriously, uses it judiciously and that the arrangement might just be more formal than how it works in other relationships.

I know my wife would be pretty annoyed if I tried to pull the “I’m the man and what I say goes” thing, but at the same time, she encourages me all the time to take the lead in terms of running the family strategically. She’s all for being the day to day manager, but wants me to more or less take initiative on the long-term stuff like where to live, career stuff, major financial decisions. That doesn’t mean she has no (name removed by moderator)ut or even less (name removed by moderator)ut than anyone else here, but she wants me to do the work and start any conversation about those topics.

Marriages are as unique as the people who make them up. Provided that all these spouses are first looking to serve Christ and next looking to serve the other, it’s all good.

 

[EasterJoy]

And having a definitive “shot callers” who rarely if ever invokes that “right” works for them.

A relative of mine was fond of this quip: In our marriage, she makes all the minor decisions, but I make all the major decisions. In 50 years of marriage, though, we’ve been very lucky–nothing major has ever come up!

The truth, however, is that it was his intention to please her whenever it was possible, even though it was his responsibility to hold the line on what he had to hold the line on, whether or not she liked it. Well, when it came to such serious things, they always agreed. On everything else, he would not have thought of fighting over the color of something or what street they lived on or anything minor like that.

 

[Avocadomom]

And having a definitive “shot callers” who rarely if ever invokes that “right” works for them. We’re all different people. What seems scary and potentially domineering to you might seem comforting for someone else. The fact that the other poster’s husband used that “right” twice in 16 years is evidence that he takes it seriously, uses it judiciously and that the arrangement might just be more formal than how it works in other relationships.

I know my wife would be pretty annoyed if I tried to pull the “I’m the man and what I say goes” thing, but at the same time, she encourages me all the time to take the lead in terms of running the family strategically. She’s all for being the day to day manager, but wants me to more or less take initiative on the long-term stuff like where to live, career stuff, major financial decisions. That doesn’t mean she has no (name removed by moderator)ut or even less (name removed by moderator)ut than anyone else here, but she wants me to do the work and start any conversation about those topics.

Marriages are as unique as the people who make them up. Provided that all these spouses are first looking to serve Christ and next looking to serve the other, it’s all good.

Which is why I tend to think the debate of “should a wife obey/submit” is a bit silly. A couple should do what will make the marriage successful. I see my marriage like a Venn diagram. My domain, his domain, our domain in the middle. Egalitarian works for us. If another dynamic works for another couple, good for them!

 

[Xantippe]

bitterhope said:

“Xantippe, what would happen if you and your husband got into an argument and no compromise can be found? Do you just continue to go around and around indefinitely? What happens when someone must make a decision? Who has the final say when action must be taken but there isn’t an agreement anywhere in sight? Life happens that way sometimes. Sometimes we must act immediately but someone will be disappointed. It’s not about winning and losing.”

We’ve been married 16 years so far and it hasn’t happened yet.

If we have a disagreement, we can generally wait and see if a solution emerges. It always does. We do a monthly budget every single month and have for nearly the past seven years, so a lot of little stuff gets settled pretty automatically–take $50 out of groceries, put $50 in a birthday fund, that sort of thing.

Years ago (before we started the monthly budget), I was enchanted by a fancy pants preschool for our oldest. It was, I am a little embarrassed to say, a $10k a year half-day preschool, but it was oh so very ARTISTIC. (In my defence, it was DC and it seemed reasonable at the time.) My husband said no. So sad! But I found a cheap city co-op and we got preschool for almost nothing and oldest doesn’t seem deprived.

“I did read the entire post, but the thing that jumped out to me is the whole situation could have easily been avoided if the discussion had taken place BEFORE buying the house.”

Yes.

We were so wrapped up in the question of how to afford the house (as well as having our old house and neighborhood bulldozed, finding a temporary rental, getting safely through a complicated pregnancy, having a new baby and doing two moves in 11 months–not our usual thing) that we didn’t realize we had a failure to communicate.

I thought we would save maybe $200 a month for the kids’ college and start seriously renovating in 3-5 years. Then the college fairy would come and take care of the kids’ college. My husband, on the other hand, wanted us to save all of the college up front (the infamous $300k), and if I wanted to do any cosmetic renovations in the meantime, I would do so using my “fun money,” which is about $30 a month. I had failed to understand that my husband wanted all of the college money saved upfront (because I knew we had the cheap hometown option of $5k a year, so I wasn’t fussed about college), while he had failed to understand how passionately I was opposed to living long-term with the cosmetic stuff.

“Would the marriage seriously have experienced irreparable damage because of paint, carpet, bathroom fixtures?”

If we had had the money, he knew that it was important to me, and he failed to attach any importance to my preferences for where I spend 80% of my time and refused to let us move to a cheaper home that I actually liked as is, why yes, that would damage our relationship.

“And this seems normal and healthy to couples? In the situations you described, both the homeschooling couple and the situation with the house, neither husband nor wife were acting in accord with Eph 5.”

I think the husband does believe that it is in the child’s best interests to be homeschooled, because he doesn’t understand his child’s disability and he doesn’t listen to his wife’s concerns about it, even though she’s the one actually homeschooling, going to the therapy, seeing a lot of normal kids that age, and spending 95% of her time with their kids–the husband thinks everything is just hunky dory. I don’t think he’s being selfish–it’s just that he lacks knowledge. Denial is very common among fathers of special needs children. And specifically with autism spectrum kids, it’s not unusual for dad’s social skills to be well below average, so he’s going to be the very last one to notice that there’s anything unusual about junior.

I’m one of those who believe that specialized knowledge or labor in a particular area should earn a spouse more say in a situation, i.e. the homeschooling spouse should have more than a 50% vote as to whether homeschooling is going to continue.

 

[The_Bucket]

Which is why I tend to think the debate of “should a wife obey/submit” is a bit silly. A couple should do what will make the marriage successful. I see my marriage like a Venn diagram. My domain, his domain, our domain in the middle. Egalitarian works for us. If another dynamic works for another couple, good for them!

Right. There are risks all around. Having an equal partnership is not an issue unless one of the spouses is being obstinate. Having a partnership where someone has a “final say” is no problem unless the one with that “right” is being domineering.

It’s a fine line, but that’s why Paul’s advice is so good. Wives, do what your husbands say. Husbands, die for your wives. Or basically: Wives, be like the Apostles and the Church. Husbands, be like Christ. There can be no obedience without perfect fidelity and sacrifice.

I’ll tell my wife she needs to be more submissive the day I can legitimately claim perfect fidelity and sacrifice akin to Christ’s.

 

[Avocadomom]

Right. There are risks all around. Having an equal partnership is not an issue unless one of the spouses is being obstinate. Having a partnership where someone has a “final say” is no problem unless the one with that “right” is being domineering.

It’s a fine line, but that’s why Paul’s advice is so good. Wives, do what your husbands say. Husbands, die for your wives. Or basically: Wives, be like the Apostles and the Church. Husbands, be like Christ. There can be no obedience without perfect fidelity and sacrifice.

I’ll tell my wife she needs to be more submissive the day I can legitimately claim perfect fidelity and sacrifice akin to Christ’s.

Beyond what Paul may have written a very long time ago, I like to focus on what The Church advises today: stay married! Whatever works will do fine.

 

[Xantippe]

Easter Joy said:

“A relative of mine was fond of this quip: In our marriage, she makes all the minor decisions, but I make all the major decisions. In 50 years of marriage, though, we’ve been very lucky–nothing major has ever come up!”

There’s a 1950s or 1960s version of that where the husband says somethink like, “In our marriage, she makes all the minor decisions (where to live, where to go on vacation), but I make all the major decisions (like what our family views are on China).”

 

[PhiloMed]

Beyond what Paul may have written a very long time ago, I like to focus on what The Church advises today: stay married! Whatever works will do fine.

Yes!

Precisely what I was getting at. Some people may have what seem like very unconventional (or very conventional) arrangements and what works for them may not work for someone else. What’s important is that the couple is happy and their marriage thrives.

 

[HelenRose]

This is truly a tricky path.

This is a issue between a woman and God. It really is not the husband’s place to make judgment on whether or not she is fulfilling this commandment.