Practical ways that a wife should be submissive to her husband

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Con’t/

Hello again, dear friends.

The subjection of the wife to her husband is indeed within the framework of the “order of love” (Casti Connubii, para. 26), yet this Encyclical expressly states that "This order includes both the primacy of the husband with regard to the wife and children, the ready subjection of the wife and her willing obedience, which the Apostle commends in these words: “Let the women be subject to their husbands as to the Lord, because the husband is head of the wife, and Christ is head of the Church”. The “order of love” merely forbids either despotism or craven fear, which within a pious Catholic family would seldom, if ever at all, be an issue. No decent Catholic man will ever seek to rule his household in an imperious manner and will, moreover, always treat his beloved spouse with the respect that is due to her as the “weaker vessel” (I Pet. 3: 7). All jolly elementary stuff for an informed Catholic.

Our own common sense should inform us, dear friends, that a wife should not have to “obey her husband’s every request if not in harmony with right reason or with the dignity due to wife”. Once again, this is unlikely to happen within a pious Catholic family where both spouses are submissive to our Lord, for in such a household unreasonable demands will not be a feature of family life. Certainly, a wife is not forbidden to use her own reasoning powers and must do so if she is to ascertain whether a demand is reasonable or unreasonable. Nevertheless, this exception does not afford her *carte blanche *permission to challenge or disobey her husband whenever it suits her just to selfishly get her own way. This would be a clear repudiation of the husband as legitimate head of the household, the one who “occupies the chief place in ruling” (CC, para. 27). None of this is too complicated and it is a sad reflection of the times that even many putative Catholics have issues with this good and sane teaching.

Needless to say, dear friends, no devout Catholic husband would treat his wife as a minor who must slavishly obey his orders and who, accordingly, is not permitted to think for herself. In a fallen world I would not stop to deny that even in some Catholic households such tyrannical men do exist, but they are a very small minority. Some extremist feminists may suggest that Catholicism breeds despotic husbands, but they say this, as we all know, because they are extremists who intensely dislike Catholic teaching because it is at variance with their warped ideology. Where such tyrannical husbands do exist they represent a grotesque caricature of the pious Catholic husbands and as such they are a disgrace to their sex. At any rate they find no support from authentic Church teaching.

Now for the husband rule within the home to be real and effective he must needs be the final authority, otherwise the authority is meaningless and is only of a titular sort. As I have said in a pervious post, when a disagreement arises within the home matters can usually be resolved by calmly talking matters through until there is a meeting of minds. However, on the rare occasion when pious Catholic spouses reach an impasse, the ultimate decision making must rest with the husband as the “chief of the family and head of the wife” (Arcanum, 1880). To argue against this is to deny that the husband is the “chief of the family and head of the wife” and therefore to reject authoritative Church teaching in both Arcanum and Casti Connubii.. Yes of course “divine charity” must be “the constant guide to their mutual relations”, but that does not and indeed cannot negate the truth the husband rules and the wife obeys (CC, para. 29). This may not chime with modern egalitarianism and feminist ideology, but it is Catholic truth nonetheless and the faithful are not required to apologise for it or feel embarrassed about it. Unless the husband is the final authority their will ultimately be anarchy within in the home, for it is impossible for the home to have two heads who have equal authority. This is a recipe for chaos and will never work in practice. For example, what if a husband believes listening to pop/rock music is an unwholesome influence upon his children, but his wife does not share that belief. As head of the home and responsible for the spiritual welfare of his children, he must have the final say in such a matter and the wife must humbly accept and respect his decision. Again, if the families budget will not stretch to a holiday this year, the wife must meekly accept this and not put pressure upon the husband to change his mind by sulking or quarrelling. However, I am bound to say that such disagreements will seldom occur within pious Catholic households, where a consensus generally obtains because there are shared beliefs. Incidently, this underscores the importance of entering into Holy Wedlock with a suitable and godly spouse, otherwise problems will soon manifest themselves.

This teaching was generally accepted prior to the emergence of godless feminism during the Sixties, when their was widespread rejection of traditional norms - that “whole generation with a new explanation” that was so very subversive in so many ways. Here is what a respected Catholic bible commentary said in 1953, reflecting authoritative Church teaching: “Baptism confers equality on all individuals from the point of view od religion…in society (of which the family is at once the smallest and most important unit) there is a natural hierarchy. The husband is the head; the wife is subject to him. By Baptism this order is not broken; it is ennobled. St. Paul compares it to the love of the Church for Christ, the head” (A Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture, 1953, Thomas Nelson & Sons, commentary on Ephesians 5: 22, p. 1124).

God bless and thankyou again, dear friends.

Con’t/
 
**I will be a little bit provocative in order to be very clear. **

“If I try to institute a weekly family rosary, should she agree?”

The weekly family rosary is *not a moral obligation coming from the natural moral law, is not a moral obligation coming from the ecclesiastic law and is not a moral obligation coming from the canon law. *

This discipline is not a catholic obligation, only, a personal choice. Thus, the husband or the wife has no power to impose and to force this institution: it is only a proposal. The use of the moralism, of the culpabilism, of the scrupulism and of the apparitionism for setting up *is not normal, that is unfair and that is insane.
*
WHY???

Because the conjugal faith being a natural thing, the husband or the wife cannot impose strict disciplines to the other and / or to the family, that are stronger than the natural moral law. The husband or the wife does not have this natural power.

The marriage is not a seminary. The couple is not seminary. The family is not seminary. The true moralism, the true culpabilism, and the true scrupulism in order to get some stuff,* even spiritual things,* are not very sane: it is very unfair.

I know that this message can disturb, but I say a catholic truth.!!!
I don’t understand your point. Do you think that, by saying the husband is head, we are saying that a husband can “force through legislation” or act unilaterally whenever he wants? Why would you make that connection?

President Obama is head of this country, but there are plenty of things he can’t do. He can’t even introduce legislation, much less pass it!
 
I don’t understand your point. Do you think that, by saying the husband is head, we are saying that a husband can “force through legislation” or act unilaterally whenever he wants? Why would you make that connection?

President Obama is head of this country, but there are plenty of things he can’t do. He can’t even introduce legislation, much less pass it!
In reality, in the marriage there are two spheres: *the sphere of the couple and the sphere of the family. The natural moral regime is different in function of spheres.
*

The natural moral order of the couple: the rights, the obligations and the duties of each one toward the other, toward himself or herself and toward the couple. The articlation is not very simple. The institutional rights, the institutional duties and the institutional obligations, and the contractual rights, contractual duties and contractual obligations.

The man [the male spouse, the husband] as head of the couple? NO; the man [the male spouse, the husband] as head of the conjugal sexuality? NO

The natural moral order of the family: the rights, the obligations and the duties of each one toward the family. The articlation is not very simple. The institutional rights, the institutional duties and the institutional obligations, and the contractual rights, contractual duties and contractual obligations. The man [the male spouse, the husband] as head of the household or [family]? YES AND NO, the balance, the moderation, the reason, the rule of reason, the rights of each one are the rules. The husband has the moral obligation of respecting the natural moral rights of his wife and of his children. The dialogue between Faith and Reason and the Reason and Faith. is the rule.
 
I don’t understand your point. Do you think that, by saying the husband is head, we are saying that a husband can “force through legislation” or act unilaterally whenever he wants?

Not you, but some catholics yes. Why would you make that connection?

President Obama is head of this country, but there are plenty of things he can’t do. He can’t even introduce legislation, much less pass it!
Morally speaking, a husband has no power to impose the setting up a weekly family rosary, via a speech in link with the moralism, the culpabilism, the scrupulism and / or the apparitionism. Morally speaking, a wife has no power to impose the setting up a weekly family rosary, via a speech in link with the moralism, the culpabilism, the scrupulism and / or the apparitionism.** Only, a proposal is morally fair, but a moralist speech on this prayer is not catholic.**
 
I don’t understand your point. Do you think that, by saying the husband is head, we are saying that a husband can “force through legislation” or act unilaterally whenever he wants?

Normally speaking and in general, about the family (stricto sensu), the decisions have to be conjugal and marital, what mean a conjugal talk, a mutual dialogue with the rules of reason, and the right reason has to be at the spring of the decision. Of course, there can have exeptions, but exeptions have to stay the exeptions.** In general, a husband does not have to act unilaterally whenever he wants** or to “force through legislation”.

We are on the same page, in my humble opinion.
 
I love when these threads get absurd. And by that I mean, I don’t love it at all.

Folks, read the passage closely. The head cannot go on without the heart and the heart has no one to tell it to pump without the head. Therefore the two are mutually dependent on one another, but with different functions

Just as it is with Christ. Without the Church, there is no one for whom Christ can give His life. And without Christ, we are all lost. Different roles but mutually dependent in order for the relationship to work. Or for it to even exist.

Why is this a difficult concept for some people?
 
fpt;12015956:
No we’re not. You specifically denied Scripture, which says “The husband is the head of his wife.”
**
“The husband is the head of his wife”??? Head means chief? Head means boss?Head means leader? Head means brain? Head means ruler? Head means governor? Head means general? How do you define the head?**

Are you saying that the husband is the head of the conjugal sexuality? YES OR NO
Are you saying that the husband is the head of the couple? YES OR NO
Are you saying that the husband is the head of the family? YES OR NO
 
Prodigal_Son;12015964:
**
“The husband is the head of his wife”??? Head means chief? Head means boss?Head means leader? Head means brain? Head means ruler? Head means governor? Head means general? How do you define the head?**
Are you saying that the husband is the head of the conjugal sexuality? YES OR NO
Are you saying that the husband is the head of the couple? YES OR NO
Are you saying that the husband is the head of the family? YES OR NO

It doesn’t matter how I define or interpret it. You said:
The man [the male spouse, the husband] as head of the couple? NO
That is a contradiction of Scripture.
 
Prodigal_Son;12015964:
**
“The husband is the head of his wife”??? Head means chief? Head means boss?Head means leader? Head means brain? Head means ruler? Head means governor? Head means general? How do you define the head?**
Are you saying that the husband is the head of the conjugal sexuality? YES OR NO
Are you saying that the husband is the head of the couple? YES OR NO
Are you saying that the husband is the head of the family? YES OR NO

The husband is the head of the conjugal sexuality? NO
The husband is the head of the couple? NO
The husband is the head of the family? YES

Is there an ontological equality and an ontological equity between the male human and the female human?

Are there same rights for man and woman, and are there particular rights for each sex?

Is there an ontological equality and an ontological equity between the male spouse and the female spouse, between husband and wife?

Are there same rights for husband and wife, and are there particular rights for each spouse?

Is there a mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal and equitable donation of persons?

Is there a mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal and equitable reception of persons?

Is there a mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal and equitable submission between wife and husband?

Do you agree with the fact that there are two spheres: the sphere of the couple and the sphere of the family?

Do you agree with the fact that the natural moral regime of two spheres is different?
 
How in the world is marriage supposed to be a sign of Christ and His Church (i.e. His Bride) if Christian marriage does not include headship of the husband? It becomes a nonsensical sign if it is stripped of any ideas of headship.
 
Con’t/

What are we to say as regards paragraph 28 of Casti Connubii?: “Again this subjection of wife to husband in its degree and manner may vary according to different conditions of persons, place and time…”. Appeal is sometimes made to this passage as if it completely undercut Church teaching respecting the authority of the husband within the domestic hearth. This is, I am afraid, the *modus operandi *of those who wrench a text from its context and use it as a pretext for polemical purposes. They also tend to treat Sacred Scripture in the same underhand fashion, so desperate are they to promote their own pet theories. However, all this passage says is that the *nature *of subjection is not something that is static and necessarily does change over time. All spouses are different and how they arrive at a decision will necessarily be different, notwithstanding, on a fundamental level the order of marriage is immutable and the ultimate responsibility and duty of directing the family rests with the husband as “chief of the family and head of the wife” (*Arcanum, *1880). Irrespective of the age in which one is living, the husband is the head and ruler and thus it is he who must be the *locus *of authority within the domestic church - "The structure of the family and its fundamental law, established and confirmed by God, must always and everywhere remain in tact" (para. 28, added emphasis mine). This is the important truth that we must grasp and not loose sight of and it is this truth that is vehemently denied both within the bosom of Holy Mother Church and without it.

To conclude, dear friends, I would like to discuss this ‘mutual submission’ that appears to be very much in vogue nowadays. Whist it is taught in the current Catechism of the Catholic Church, it is so important that we understand precisely what is meant by this much over- used term. First, as has been stated in this thread already, it cannot be contradictory to the Encyclical teaching which I have been discussing at great length so it must not be set in opposition to that teaching. There is certainly a place for the development of doctrine within Catholicism but that does not mean that older teachings are rendered worthless or irrelevant. It certainly does not mean that they are sort of quietly repealed by default and therefore are no longer regarded as forming part of standing Church teaching. That is liberalism and betrays an *a la carte *approach to our most holy religion, where teachings we find unpalatable or which do not square with modern opinions are discarded and ignored.

Now mutual submission can mean different things, dear friends. If it means sacrifice, then there most decidedly is a mutual submission within marriage, but if it is supposed to have some reference to obedience to authority, then it has no place at all. Indeed, the latter would completely contradict the teaching enunciated in both Arcanum, 1880 and Casti Conubbii, 1930, which plainly teaches the ruler-subject relationship between the spouses. Thus, for example, Pope Leo XIII speaks of “him who commands and her who obeys” (Arcanum, 1880), which if words mean anything at all decidedly speaks of a one-sided submission, not a mutual submission. Therefore, when the current Catechism and JPII talk about a ‘mutual submission’ within marriage, it must have reference to sacrificial love which must, of course, be mutual. This is consonant with the older Encyclical teaching, rather than being at variance with it.

Finally, dear friends, this whole debate will no doubt continue ad infinitum, given the irreligious times in which our lot is cast when vast multitude have bought into the false egalitarianism of our times. This pernicious heretical ideology has deeply impacted our Western society and even the distinctions between the sexes have become blurred. Many celebrate this as true progress, but not the devout Catholic who knows that we are heading in the wrong direction in this and many other matters. Even professing Catholics have embraced this spurious egalitarianism and then seek to make our holy religion conform to it. Whilst I would accept that there are those who are genuinely endeavouring to understand the teaching of Holy Mother Church, many are simply trying desperately to accommodate that teaching to modern progressive opinions. This is because they intensely dislike the older teaching, which does not sit comfortably with their radical opinions respecting the sexes and ‘equality’. Sadly, a sort of eristic style of argumentation has taken grip of contemporary Catholicism, which seems more desirous of winning arguments than in reaching the truth. Perhaps this is what happens when men are determined to find support for their erroneous ideological beliefs and misuse Church teaching to that end.

This is my final post in this thread as I have nothing further to add to the discussion. Trust that my posts have helped clarify the topic under review and that they have dispelled some of the misunderstanding and false teaching that sadly prevails. Thankyou again for your time.

God bless and goodbye. May I take this opportunity to wish contributors/viewers of this thread a jolly splendid and relaxing weekend.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait:tiphat:

In Christos
 
The husband is not the head of the conjugal sexuality. The husband is not the head of couple. The husband is the head of the family

The refusal of the mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal and equitable donation of persons could be an issue concerning the validity of the marriage, under particular conditions. The refusal of the mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal and equitable reception of persons could be an issue concerning the validity of the marriage, under particular conditions.

The refusal of the mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal and equitable donation of persons could be a moral issue, under particular conditions. The refusal of the mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal and equitable reception of persons could be a moral issue, under particular conditions.

The refusal of the ontological equality and the ontological equity between the male human and the female human could be an issue concerning the validity of the marriage, under particular conditions. The refusal of the ontological equality and the ontological equity between the male spouse and the female spouse, could be a moral issue concerning the validity of the marriage, under particular conditions.

The refusal of the ontological equality and the ontological equity between the male human and the female human could be a moral issue, under particular conditions. The refusal of the ontological equality and the ontological equity between the male spouse and the female spouse could be a moral issue, under particular conditions.
 
Is there an ontological equality and an ontological equity between the male human and the female human?..
(1) You have not denied that you contradict Scripture. Good to know.

(2) Why would you think that “being head of” implies ontological superiority? I am head over my children, but I am not superior to them – quite the contrary, in a number of ways, I am inferior to them. Peter was head of the Church, but he was not ontologically superior to Paul.
 
fpt;12015999:
The husband is the head of the conjugal sexuality? NO
The husband is the head of the couple? NO
The husband is the head of the family? YES

Is there an ontological equality and an ontological equity between the male human and the female human? ** YES**
Are there same rights for man and woman, and are there particular rights for each sex? YES

Is there an ontological equality and an ontological equity between the male spouse and the female spouse, between husband and wife? YES

Are there same rights for husband and wife, and are there particular rights for each spouse? YES

Is there a mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal and equitable donation of persons? YES

Is there a mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal and equitable reception of persons? YES

Is there a mutual, reciprocal, bilateral, equal and equitable submission between wife and husband? YES

Do you agree with the fact that there are two spheres: the sphere of the couple and the sphere of the family?

Do we have to agree with the fact that there are two spheres: the sphere of the couple and the sphere of the family? YES

Do you agree with the fact that the natural moral regime of two spheres is different?

Do we have to agree with the fact that the natural moral regime of two spheres is different? YES
 
(1) You have not denied that you contradict Scripture. Good to know.

(2) Why would you think that “being head of” implies ontological superiority? I am head over my children, but I am not superior to them – quite the contrary, in a number of ways, I am inferior to them. Peter was head of the Church, but he was not ontologically superior to Paul.
*In reality, Peter was the first Pope, his statute made that he was the superior to Paul.

Ontologically speaking because of the Papacy, Peter was the first, the big boss. Only him had the power of keys.*
 
Q: Is the husband the head of the wife?

A: Yes*
“the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church”

~ Ephesians 5:23 RSVCE

Q: Does the truth that husband is the head of the wife mean that she is like a child to him or a slave or employee etc etc?

A: No!**

** “head”- kefalé - in terms of the husband as head of the wife -does not mean there a role of master to slaves, or boss to employees, or even parent to child! One must remove any such understanding.

Rather - Servant leadership (serving the others!- at the service of the good of the wife and family). As Christ washed the feet of his disciples.

If one reads the full context -it rather involves the laying down of ones life for the beloved…the giving of ones blood…
 
The rules are the conjugal natural goodness, the conjugal natural love, the conjugal evangelical love and the conjugal charity. THE CONJUGAL CHARITY: NOT MORE AND NOT LESS
 
I love when these threads get absurd. And by that I mean, I don’t love it at all.

Folks, read the passage closely. The head cannot go on without the heart and the heart has no one to tell it to pump without the head. Therefore the two are mutually dependent on one another, but with different functions

Just as it is with Christ. Without the Church, there is no one for whom Christ can give His life. And without Christ, we are all lost. Different roles but mutually dependent in order for the relationship to work. Or for it to even exist.

Why is this a difficult concept for some people?
:amen:
Good grief…absurd is the word. Such contortions! Such long screeds. About something tat really is pretty simple.
Good post.
 
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