Practically Perfect or Perfect Position?

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates, in Hebrews 10, the writer is explaining how the Christ’s sacrifice makes salvation possible. If you like, it may help to think about it as Christ having already prepared a perfect ‘you’ which you will be in Heaven. What you then do on earth is about trying, through knowing Christ and following His plan, to become closer and closer to that perfect ‘you’, the you you are supposed to become. Few, if any, of us, will achieve that this side of death, but the closer we get now, the better it will be for us in purgatory, and ultimately in eternity.

DL:

That is an extremely insightful idea that i would like to explore. First, however, i would like to talk with Jane. I’ll talk about your idea afterward, so please check back. Thank you!

 

[JaneFrances]

Jane:

So, on to my questions, unless. of course, you would like to ask questions of me first. I do not wish to be rude and believe that a lady should go first, or at least choose whether or not she would like to do so.

As a Southern girl, I appreciate your chivalry. Truly, I do. However, in a forum such as this, I much prefer a more organic discussion. A back and forth sort of a thing. When questions are needed, I believe, they should be asked. In the meantime, I will do my best to answer any questions posed to me as promptly and as best I can.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Great! I don’t see a sea of difference in our thoughts on this, then. My strongest opposition regards the term “positionally perfect.” Maybe that is because I don’t know exactly what it means??? I have some ideas of things it could mean which I would reject, but perhaps they are not your meaning. Could you explain?

It might be good for me to learn what you see as ideas that we have in common. Would you like to briefly explain on what you believe we agree?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

As a Southern girl, I appreciate your chivalry. Truly, I do. However, in a forum such as this, I much prefer a more organic discussion. A back and forth sort of a thing. When questions are needed, I believe, they should be asked. In the meantime, I will do my best to answer any questions posed to me as promptly and as best I can.

LOL! Well, frankly my dear, i do give a hoot!

My first question: On what do you believe we agree.

 

[JaneFrances]

It might be good for me to learn what you see as ideas that we have in common. Would you like to briefly explain on what you believe we agree?

WHEW. . .the first one’s an easy one!

I agree, per your post here

a) Giving away all your money will make you perfect practically.
(b) Following me will make you positionally perfect, and then the Holy Spirit will give you the desire to give up your sin of greed, which can keep you from following me.
Yes, i agree, both (a) and (b) might be true at the same time. The other possibility is that both (a) and (b) are false. There might be other premises that are true, which you might assign the letter (c) or (d). I’m open to all these possibilities.

that the meaning of the passage regarding the exchange between Christ and the rich young man (Matthew 19) may have multiple levels of meaning which your first two posed choices do not entirely exhibit.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

WHEW. . .the first one’s an easy one!

I agree, per your post here
that the meaning of the passage regarding the exchange between Christ and the rich young man (Matthew 19) may have multiple levels of meaning which your first two posed choices do not entirely exhibit.

I take it, then, you believe both (a) and (b) to be true?

 

[I_Leatherman]

Leatherman:

…will actually be as good and perfect as God?

Actually, you said that.

Christ just said that *he *would be perfect if *he *did all that was mentioned and followed Christ and all that that entails…​

Then that man would be perfect, according to Christ.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

*Are you saying that a man who follows the commands: *

• *Do not murder *
• *Do not commit adultery *
• *Do not steal *
• *Do not give false testimony *
• *Honor your father and mother *
• *Love your neighbor as yourself *
• And sell your possessions and give to the poor
  will actually be as good and perfect as God?

Yes, this is what i asked Leatherman. I wanted to know if he believed these were requirements to be as good and perfect as God. I’m assuming, i think correctly, that you would add at least one other requirement:

• Do not murder
• Do not commit adultery
• Do not steal
• *Do not give false testimony *
• Honor your father and mother
• Love your neighbor as yourself
• And sell your possessions and give to the poor
• Repent of your sin and put your trust in Christ and follow him for the rest of your life
  Would you say then that a person who does this will actually be as good and perfect as God?

 

[JaneFrances]

I take it, then, you believe both (a) and (b) to be true?

Then, you took it wrongly. I said that I agree with you that there are multiple levels to Christ’s message. I can not say that your finite offerings of (a) and (b) are entirely true. I imagine that both hold some measure of truth as I tried to explain in my first post to this thread. I also said that I have no idea what you mean by “positionally perfect.”

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Then, you took it wrongly. I said that I agree with you that there are multiple levels to Christ’s message. I can not say that your finite offerings of (a) and (b) are entirely true. I imagine that both hold some measure of truth as I tried to explain in my first post to this thread. I also said that I have no idea what you mean by “positionally perfect.”

Yes, i agree.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Christ did not tell the man he would be ‘as good and as perfect as God’.
Those are your words, I don’t know why you need to use them, but anyway.
Simply, Christ said he would be perfect. No complications for me thanks. Ciao.

 

[JaneFrances]

Ciao for me for a time, too. . .Socrates, please ask any quesions and as many as you will and I will gladly respond in kind!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Here was a man who observed all of the law from an early age to the very best of his human ability. How far was he from perfection?
Simply to remove himself from any attachment to this world and follow Christ, and all that that entailed.
…

Janet:

You said:

Christ did not tell the man he would be ‘as good and as perfect as God’.

Those are your words, I don’t know why you need to use them, but anyway.

Simply, Christ said he would be perfect. No complications for me thanks. Ciao.
Well, actually they were Leatherman’s words. I was asking you the same question i asked him. So you do not believe that Jesus was telling the man that, in order to enter heaven, he had to:

“Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48)
Do you, Janet, think being as perfect as God is a requirement to receive eternal life or to get into heaven? Or are you saying that becoming and remaining as perfectly good as God is possible, but not necessary to enter heaven?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Ciao for me for a time, too. . .Socrates, please ask any quesions and as many as you will and I will gladly respond in kind!

No problem. See ya’ later! And caio bella! (i lived a year and a half in Italy in the US Army, but that is about all i remember of Italian).

 

[Seamus_Sully]

Perfect is a difficult reality to conceive (conception of a thought about reality).

The Greek does not give the idea of without any faults.

The peach tree in my yard is a complete (perfect) peach tree.

Jesus’ commands us to be completed/perfected by His Father.

If we love God (from His own love poured into our new hearts) He will bring us to our completion.

The following is from a normal Greek dictionary.

“teleios”:

1. brought to its end, finished
2. wanting nothing necessary to completeness
3. perfect
4. that which is perfect

a) consummate human integrity and virtue

b) of men

1. full grown, adult, of full age, mature

I do not know if any posts posted this, but I do not have the time to read all of the posts.

God bless!!!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Sully:

Your thoughts, i think, are like a beautiful butterfly that, as i draw near, flutter out of reach.

 

[cpayne]

Janet:

You said:

Christ did not tell the man he would be ‘as good and as perfect as God’.

Those are your words, I don’t know why you need to use them, but anyway.

Simply, Christ said he would be perfect. No complications for me thanks. Ciao.
Well, actually they were Leatherman’s words. I was asking you the same question i asked him. So you do not believe that Jesus was telling the man that, in order to enter heaven, he had to:

“Be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48)
Do you, Janet, think being as perfect as God is a requirement to receive eternal life or to get into heaven? Or are you saying that becoming and remaining as perfectly good as God is possible, but not necessary to enter heaven?

As has just been pointed out (previous post), some of this discussion seems to be based on a unclear translation. “Perfect” in the N.T. almost always means “mature” or “complete,” not a state of sinless perfection.

In context, doesn’t Jesus command refer to walking in love and forgiveness? This discipline will bring us to maturity in God, who is love.

“By one offering He has perfected forever those who are BEING SANCTIFIED.” Your position in God’s grace is perfect and sinless, but all of us are in the process of becoming more set-apart for God–more mature. This thought should make us more thankful (for God’s redeeming grace) and cautious (that we not fall short of the work of grace in us).

 

[Seamus_Sully]

One last thought: we are saved by, in and through His love!!!

As Romans 5, 5 says: His love is poured into our (new) hearts.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Socrates, in Hebrews 10, the writer is explaining how the Christ’s sacrifice makes salvation possible. If you like, it may help to think about it as Christ having already prepared a perfect ‘you’ which you will be in Heaven. What you then do on earth is about trying, through knowing Christ and following His plan, to become closer and closer to that perfect ‘you’, the you you are supposed to become. Few, if any, of us, will achieve that this side of death, but the closer we get now, the better it will be for us in purgatory, and ultimately in eternity.

DL:

You are not at the forum at present, so i cannot ask you one question at a time to be sure that i understand you correctly. Please forgive me, then, and correct me, if i do not follow your line of reasoning accurately.

I’m wondering about the meaning of Jesus’ words in Matthew 5:48:

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
So i asked how Hebrews, chapter 10, helps explain Jesus words (as both passages talk about a person being in a state of sinless perfection). Hebrews 10:11-13 states:

*Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. *So, you say that Hebrews 10 explains Matthew 5 this way:

… think about it as Christ having already prepared a perfect ‘you’ which you will be in Heaven. What you then do on earth is about trying, through knowing Christ and following His plan, to become closer and closer to that perfect ‘you’, the you you are supposed to become.
What you appear to be saying is this:

(A) Jesus’ sacrifice has made perfect forever those followers of his who are now in heaven.

However, is the writer talking about those who are now in heaven, or those who are not yet in heaven? Please consider what he (or she) writes:

… *by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. *

If you were here, i would ask, “Are those who are in heaven the ones who are ‘being made holy’ or are they the ones who have already become holy?” I would then go on to explain that she must be writing of those who are not yet in heaven, because only people who have not yet entered heaven are in the process of “being made holy”. What the author of Hebrews actually appears to be saying is this:

(B) Jesus sacrifice has made positionally perfect forever those followers of his who are still living on earth and striving to become perfect practically.
I would then ask you a deeper question: How is it that a person can both be in a state of being “made perfect forever” and also be in a state of “being made holy”? There are two answers, i think:

(1) Holiness and perfection are not the same.

or

(2) Holiness and perfection are the same, but we are already perfect in a different sense that we are striving to become perfect.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

One last thought: we are saved by, in and through His love!!!

As Romans 5, 5 says: His love is poured into our (new) hearts.

Ahhh, if only that timid insect would land softly on my shoulder and whisper in my ear. What sweet melodies of eternity i might hear!Good bye, sweet butterfly!God speed!The wind may blow where you not know.So it is with the Spirit.Never fear.He will draw you near.

Softly now.

Till we meet again.