Practically Perfect or Perfect Position?

[Socrates4Jesus]

… As a result, I am “positionally perfect” to the extent that I am in Christ (in a state of grace). This means that I am seated with Him in the heavenly places. …

Yes, i can see how this is the truth which i have been considering! You and i, if we are indeed God’s children, are both in a state of being perfect (right now) and in a state of becoming perfect. For, the words
For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated.
(Hebrews 10:14)

are speaking of two different kinds of perfection: The first being how we are in the present (right now) positionally perfect, and the second is how we are in the present only in the process of becoming practically (or actually) perfect.

This is the only way to understand Hebrews 10:14, for the words

(A) by one offering he has made perfect forever
cannot possibly mean we are right now actually perfect, for practically we sin every day. Therefore, they must mean that we are positionally perfect, in that God sees us as what we are not.

Furthermore the words

(B) those who are being consecrated.
cannot possibly mean that we have attained a state of practical perfection, for we are still becoming what we are not, for St. Paul writes that
… the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.
(Romans 4:17)
That is, (A) is how God views us and (B) is how we actually are. Yes, i completely agree, Guano. Thank you for that insight!

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I suppose the only question left to answer (can you believe i’m nearly out of questions?) is this:

Does God give you and i eternal life based on (A) or (B)? That is, do we escape hell because

(A) by one offering he has made [us] perfect forever
or do we escape hell because we are

(B) those who are being consecrated.

or is the idea that

(C) escaping hell has nothing to do with being positionally perfect or becoming actually perfect

the truth?

It seems to me that these three are the only possibilities. Which does your heart, Guano, find to be what the Bible teaches as the true way to be rescued from eternal damnation?

 

[guanophore]

I suppose the only question left to answer (can you believe i’m nearly out of questions?) is this:

Does God give you and i eternal life based on (A) or (B)? That is, do we escape hell because

(A) by one offering he has made [us] perfect forever
or do we escape hell because we are

(B) those who are being consecrated.

or is the idea that

(C) escaping hell has nothing to do with being positionally perfect or becoming actually perfect

the truth?

It seems to me that these three are the only possibilities. Which does your heart, Guano, find to be what the Bible teaches as the true way to be rescued from eternal damnation?

I believe that the Bible teaches both A and B are true. We cannot enter without both being true. That brings us to purgatory…

You might enjoy this rendition by a talented reformed theologian:

forum.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=2169909&postcount=652

 

[cpayne]

Yes, i can see how this is the truth which i have been considering! You and i, if we are indeed God’s children, are both in a state of being perfect (right now) and in a state of becoming perfect. For, the words
For by one offering he has made perfect forever those who are being consecrated.
(Hebrews 10:14)

are speaking of two different kinds of perfection: The first being how we are in the present (right now) positionally perfect, and the second is how we are in the present only in the process of becoming practically (or actually) perfect.

Back in post 37 I wrote: “By one offering He has perfected forever those who are BEING SANCTIFIED. Your position in God’s grace is perfect and sinless, but all of us are in the process of becoming more set-apart for God–more mature.”

I suppose I should be glad the light dawned. But good grief, what a waste of time and energy.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Back in post 37 I wrote: “By one offering He has perfected forever those who are BEING SANCTIFIED. Your position in God’s grace is perfect and sinless, but all of us are in the process of becoming more set-apart for God–more mature.”

I suppose I should be glad the light dawned. But good grief, what a waste of time and energy.

If you CP believe knowing the truth is a waste of time and energy, then you must believe knowing Jesus is a waste of time and energy, for He said of Himself

“I am … the truth …”

(John 14:6)

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socrates4Jesus forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*I suppose the only question left to answer (can you believe i’m nearly out of questions?) is this:

Does God give you and i eternal life based on (A) or (B)? That is, do we escape hell because
(A) by one offering he has made [us] perfect forever or do we escape hell because we are
(B) those who are being consecrated.or is the idea that
(C) escaping hell has nothing to do with being positionally perfect or becoming actually perfectthe truth?

It seems to me that these three are the only possibilities. Which does your heart, Guano, find to be what the Bible teaches as the true way to be rescued from eternal damnation?*

I believe that the Bible teaches both A and B are true. We cannot enter without both being true. That brings us to purgatory…

Well, Hebrews 10 might be interpreted to mean that only A is true and B is false, or it might be interpreted to mean both A and B are true. Hence, we have a disagreement, as the passage is ambiguous (i.e., it can be taken to mean two opposing things).

How do we resolve this disagreement between you and i, Guano? How do we determine who has the correct interpretation of Hebrews 10?

I believe the best way to do this is to appeal to another Scripture that is not ambiguous to decide the matter for us. One such passage is St. Paul’s letter to the Church at Ephesus. Please tell me, Guano, if both A and B are true, then how do you explain St. Paul’s words:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
(Ephesians 2:8-10)

 

[guanophore]

Well, Hebrews 10 might be interpreted to mean that only A is true and B is false, or it might be interpreted to mean both A and B are true. Hence, we have a disagreement, as the passage is ambiguous (i.e., it can be taken to mean two opposing things).

How do we resolve this disagreement between you and i, Guano? How do we determine who has the correct interpretation of Hebrews 10?

I believe the best way to do this is to appeal to another Scripture that is not ambiguous to decide the matter for us. One such passage is St. Paul’s letter to the Church at Ephesus. Please tell me, Guano, if both A and B are true, then how do you explain St. Paul’s words:

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
(Ephesians 2:8-10)

This point has already been hashed to death on the "works salvation " thread. It does not seem useful for me to repost everything here. I understand that the other thread does not follow your Socratic method, though, so may not be of much use to you.

I agree that one of the best ways to shed light on an ambiguous scripture is to look at it in the light of other scriptures. However, we also have the Church to guide us (unless you reject the magesterium).

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

This point has already been hashed to death on the "works salvation " thread. It does not seem useful for me to repost everything here. I understand that the other thread does not follow your Socratic method, though, so may not be of much use to you.

I agree that one of the best ways to shed light on an ambiguous scripture is to look at it in the light of other scriptures. However, we also have the Church to guide us (unless you reject the magesterium).

Well, i am unfamiliar with the Magesterium. If it is some Roman Catholic commentary on the New Testament then i would not be opposed to seeing what it says and comparing it to Hebrews 10 and other Scriptures to see if they agree with this Magesterium.

Regarding the other discussion thread, i have not read it. Since you have, you will be able to see better than i how Ephesians 2 explains Hebrews 10. Both passages discuss sanctification (that is the good works God prepares in advance for us to do). Both also speak of salvation, or what makes you and i good enough in God’s sight to be saved from hell. Both, it appears, make a distinction between salvation and sanctification.

Then again, if you can think of another passage of Scripture that clarifies the meaning of Hebrews, chapter 10, please let me know the book, chapter and verse(s). I would be happy to discuss that Scripture with you. It should be one that explains the meaning of Hebrews 10, of course.

Another route we might take is to reason whether Hebrews 10 actually teaches that we escape hell because(A) by one offering he has made [us] perfect forever or we escape hell because we are(B) those who are being consecrated.or we escape hell by means of both A and B. My thinking is that to say we escape hell by both A and B is to confuse correlation with causation.

I have given you four options; please choose whichever you prefer.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I’m visiting this form looking for the truth, and i want to thank everyone who has been so kind to answer all my questions. In one discussion thread i was trying to find out what role the good things i do have in my getting to heaven. Are the good things i do out of love for Jesus the reason He gives me eternal life or the result of His already giving me eternal life?

One thoughtful person said that the good things i do are certainly a reason (not a result), for Jesus said:“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48)So, i asked in another discussion thread how i might be perfect. The answers many helpful people gave me talked about all the good things i should do that would help me become perfect. I felt like Socrates who thought it strange that Protagoras saw no difference between being good and becoming good. I could understand how Jesus saying, “Become perfect” would be explained by doing good more and more, but i did not comprehend how i could ever reach a state of practical perfection and literally “be perfect” and as perfectly good as God Himself.

Then one helpful person suggested that this passage had the answeray after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (Hebrews 10:11-13)He did not, however, go so far as to explain why this section of the Bible explains how i can be perfect.

Therefore, i’m asking anyone who has an idea what Hebrews, chapter 10 means to try to explain it to me. I have an idea, but i don’t want to hold it up like some kind of sword and challenge everyone to defeat it. I want to hear what others have to say and seriously consider whether what they say is true.

Please tell me, what do you think it is that the author of Hebrews believes makes us as perfect as God?

I was hoping someone might have the answer to my question. There being none, at the moment, i will propose one:

I believe that perhaps Jesus words

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48)Were meant not to give us a goal to reach but to show us an unreachable goal. The only man who ever was as perfect as God our Father in heaven was Jesus Himself. All of us pale in comparison to Him. His sermon on the mount shows us how impossible it is to be good enough to deserve heaven. His statement is meant to drive us to ask Him, “Then who can be saved?” so that we might apprehend His response, “With men, this is impossible, but with God, all good things are possible.”

This brings us to Hebrews 10:13

because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Christians are those who seek to become holy, but our sin prevents us. No matter how hard we try, no matter how great the power of God, our sinful side sometimes defeats us so that we sin in either thought, word or deed. Sometimes guilty of sins of commission, sometimes guilty of sins of omission, we, if sometimes become perfect, do not remain so for long. Christians do sin less and less, but they are never sinless, at least, not on this side of eternity. Practically, we sin every day, so we can never be (or remain) perfect.

Yet, God does not see us as we are; He sees us as we will one day be. We are perfect in His eyes because the sacrifice of His One and Only Son makes us so. Not only that, but the very righteousness of the Only Perfect Man, who was, and is, and is to come as God in the flesh, is given to those who believe and receive it. Jesus lived the perfect life you or i could never live and offers it to each of us as an absolutely free gift.

=======================================

Please understand i’m not trying to preach. If i was, i would not have spent so much time asking others to explain what these two passages mean. What i offer is only an opinion that appears to me to be the only one i know that agrees with the literal meaning of the text. If this interpretation is wrong, i hope that someone will be able to explain why.

 

[cpayne]

I was hoping someone might have the answer to my question. There being none, at the moment, i will propose one:

I believe that perhaps Jesus words

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48)Were meant not to give us a goal to reach but to show us an unreachable goal. The only man who ever was as perfect as God our Father in heaven was Jesus Himself. All of us pale in comparison to Him. His sermon on the mount shows us how impossible it is to be good enough to deserve heaven. His statement is meant to drive us to ask Him, “Then who can be saved?” so that we might apprehend His response, “With men, this is impossible, but with God, all good things are possible.”

This brings us to Hebrews 10:13

because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Christians are those who seek to become holy, but our sin prevents us. No matter how hard we try, no matter how great the power of God, our sinful side sometimes defeats us so that we sin in either thought, word or deed. Sometimes guilty of sins of commission, sometimes guilty of sins of omission, we, if sometimes become perfect, do not remain so for long. Christians do sin less and less, but they are never sinless, at least, not on this side of eternity. Practically, we sin every day, so we can never be (or remain) perfect.

Yet, God does not see us as we are; He sees us as we will one day be. We are perfect in His eyes because the sacrifice of His One and Only Son makes us so. Not only that, but the very righteousness of the Only Perfect Man, who was, and is, and is to come as God in the flesh, is given to those who believe and receive it. Jesus lived the perfect life you or i could never live and offers it to each of us as an absolutely free gift.

=======================================

Please understand i’m not trying to preach. If i was, i would not have spent so much time asking others to explain what these two passages mean. What i offer is only an opinion that appears to me to be the only one i know that agrees with the literal meaning of the text. If this interpretation is wrong, i hope that someone will be able to explain why.

I realize that I am probably coming across as being increasingly harsh, in the relatively few times I have posted. However, I am willing to bet these paragraphs, or something very much like them, were already in the mind of Socrates4Jesus before this thread began. Certainly quite similar answers were given early on in this thread. However, to accept such answers would have derailed the extensive questioning already intended. As someone once wrote, the Socratic technique is a game only one can play.

If I am wrong, and you were simply “seeking the truth,” as you repeatedly said, I will certainly repent before God and before Socrates4Jesus. If I am not wrong, then you, Socrates4Jesus, need to repent.

 

[cpayne]

I need to apologize to Socrates4Jesus. It is not my place to judge–which I was doing.

Moderator, I can’t figure out how to delete the previous post. Can you do it, please? Thank you.

 

[Contarini]

IPlease understand i’m not trying to preach. If i was, i would not have spent so much time asking others to explain what these two passages mean. What i offer is only an opinion that appears to me to be the only one i know that agrees with the literal meaning of the text. If this interpretation is wrong, i hope that someone will be able to explain why.

That’s just nonsense. Cpayne is being far too kind. You have been playing deceitful games, just as I said. You have repeatedly ignored the fact (which you have done nothing to refute or even explore) that your interpretation won’t hold up in the light of the Greek. You simply don’t care about the truth, or you would at least check a good evangelical commentary based on the Greek text.

Your protestations are unavailing until you actually start showing some regard for the evidence.

But, of course, you don’t have to be truthful, do you? You’re perfect already, in Christ.

Yeah, right. . . . .

Edwin

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I need to apologize to Socrates4Jesus. It is not my place to judge–which I was doing.

Moderator, I can’t figure out how to delete the previous post. Can you do it, please? Thank you.

CP:

No need to apologize. I was not offended by what you said.

I’m confident God must not be offended, either, for your words appear to me to be a sincere desire to repent. From what i understand, He forgives those who do. Repentance is one of the marks of a true follower of Christ. Whether you needed to repent, i suppose only God knows for certain.

It’s my opinion that your criticism would certainly be justified if my intent in starting this discussion was to not listen to what anyone said but only to prove, somehow, that my understanding of the text was the only true one. I’m not into partisan religion, however, and try to imitate Socrates, who said of himself

Now, the partisan, when he is engaged in a dispute, cares nothing about the rights of the question, but is anxious only to convince his hearers of his own assertions. And the difference between them and me at the present moment is merely this - that whereas he seeks to convince his hearers that what he says is true, I am rather seeking to convince myself; to convince my hearers is a secondary matter with me.
(Plato’s Phaedo)
I’ve come to this forum sincerely trying to convince myself what the truth is - not only about the question of how God makes one good enough to receive the gift of eternal life, but also about other questions. I’ve also learned a great deal and changed my mind about at least one important Christian doctrine (what many here refer to affectionately as OSAS). Passages that i thought taught this i now see in a different light.

Why i waited until now to give what i think (and think is a more accurate word than know, for i do not know for certain that my opinion is the correct one) is the correct interpretation of the passages is that i would like others to show me how this interpretation is flawed so that i might test the spirit behind it to see whether He is actually the Holy Spirit or some other.

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

That’s just nonsense. Cpayne is being far too kind. You have been playing deceitful games, just as I said. You have repeatedly ignored the fact (which you have done nothing to refute or even explore) that your interpretation won’t hold up in the light of the Greek. You simply don’t care about the truth, or you would at least check a good evangelical commentary based on the Greek text.

Your protestations are unavailing until you actually start showing some regard for the evidence.

But, of course, you don’t have to be truthful, do you? You’re perfect already, in Christ.

Yeah, right. . . . .

Edwin

Edwin:

When St. Mary told others that they should do whatever Jesus tells them (John 2) do you think this principle applies to you and me, as well?

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

I was hoping someone might have the answer to my question. There being none, at the moment, i will propose one:

I believe that perhaps Jesus words

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”(Matthew 5:48)Were meant not to give us a goal to reach but to show us an unreachable goal. The only man who ever was as perfect as God our Father in heaven was Jesus Himself. All of us pale in comparison to Him. His sermon on the mount shows us how impossible it is to be good enough to deserve heaven. His statement is meant to drive us to ask Him, “Then who can be saved?” so that we might apprehend His response, “With men, this is impossible, but with God, all good things are possible.”

This brings us to Hebrews 10:13

because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. Christians are those who seek to become holy, but our sin prevents us. No matter how hard we try, no matter how great the power of God, our sinful side sometimes defeats us so that we sin in either thought, word or deed. Sometimes guilty of sins of commission, sometimes guilty of sins of omission, we, if sometimes become perfect, do not remain so for long. Christians do sin less and less, but they are never sinless, at least, not on this side of eternity. Practically, we sin every day, so we can never be (or remain) perfect.

Yet, God does not see us as we are; He sees us as we will one day be. We are perfect in His eyes because the sacrifice of His One and Only Son makes us so. Not only that, but the very righteousness of the Only Perfect Man, who was, and is, and is to come as God in the flesh, is given to those who believe and receive it. Jesus lived the perfect life you or i could never live and offers it to each of us as an absolutely free gift.

=======================================

Please understand i’m not trying to preach. If i was, i would not have spent so much time asking others to explain what these two passages mean. What i offer is only an opinion that appears to me to be the only one i know that agrees with the literal meaning of the text. If this interpretation is wrong, i hope that someone will be able to explain why.

CP:

Is my proposed understanding of Hebrews, chapter 10 one that the Roman Catholic church condemns? I mean, from what you understand, is it wrong or is it just different? St. Augustine said

In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love. I’m wondering if you think my opinion of Hebrews, chapter 10, errs on the side of an essential or non-essential teaching of the church. If you do not know, i hope someone else might care enough to tell me.

 

[Janet_S]

CP:

Is my proposed understanding of Hebrews, chapter 10 one that the Roman Catholic church condemns? I mean, from what you understand, is it wrong or is it just different? St. Augustine said

In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love. I’m wondering if you think my opinion of Hebrews, chapter 10, errs on the side of an essential or non-essential teaching of the church. If you do not know, i hope someone else might care enough to tell me.

There is no official CC interpretation for every verse of the Bible. (Though many of us Catholics would like it if there were.) But I am not aware that the CC ever officially, infallibly stated the interpretation of Hebrews 10:14.

Your interpretation sounds like the Protestant doctrine of imputed righteousness–we are made righteous by a “legal” declaration of God. This is a one-time event.

Catholics don’t disagree with this, but it’s not the whole picture. For Catholics, righteousness is “legal” and “actual”–God both declares us righteous and makes us righteous (at Baptism.) For Catholics, being made and declared righteous is also accompanied by progressive righteousness whereby our righteousness grows in quantity throughout our Christian life.

James Akin says this sums up the Catholic life: **People try to make the Catholic message sound complex, but it’s really simple: “Repent, believe and be baptized; then if you commit mortal sin, repent, believe, and confess. Period.” – even a five year old child can understand that. **

You might want to read this article by James Akin about “Righteousness and Merit.” It’s kind of long, but I think it explains a lot of the things that concern you.
cin.org/users/james/files/righteou.htm

 

[Socrates4Jesus]

… Your interpretation sounds like the Protestant doctrine of imputed righteousness–we are made righteous by a “legal” declaration of God. This is a one-time event.

Catholics don’t disagree with this, but it’s not the whole picture. For Catholics, righteousness is “legal” and “actual”–God both declares us righteous and makes us righteous (at Baptism.) For Catholics, being made and declared righteous is also accompanied by progressive righteousness whereby our righteousness grows in quantity throughout our Christian life.
…

Thank you, Janet. Its fascinating that you say Roman Catholics believe they are made righteous at baptism. It sounds similar to the doctrine of some Protestants that those who become children of God are made righteous at the moment they repent and put their trust in Christ. The righteousness, they reason, is a gift from God and is the righteouness of God Himself.

I had no idea Roman Catholics believed something similar to this.