Practically speaking, don't we need to "test drive the car before we buy it?"

[Hopey]

As I keep repeating, I tried this before. It doesn’t work with me. Once I start judging things by the standards of something else besides yours truly, I devolve into a codependent thinker. Ten Commandments. Fear of God’s judgment. These are things I’ve grown sick of ruling in my life so I gave them the boot.

That’s my journey of self-discovery. That’s what I learned when I finally started living a life instead of worrying whether or not I was a sick, hyper-sexual human begin. Honestly, among Catholics here, I see a culture that will stigmatize me the same way it stigmatizes those who openly practice any other alternative lifestyle. The only reason why I’m still here is that these people implore me to hold out and not lose hope for what the Faith still has to offer. (So far though, I’m really not impressed and I sooner feel like some here would wish me failure just so I could convert back to their style of thinking.)

You don’t want to be reduced to an object by a man? I don’t like being reduced to a non-functioning life form by a set of rules. Secular or religious. (Oddly enough, seeing women as ‘objects’ gave me a better sense of how to talk to them and get better ideas on what goes on in their heads. You may despise it and rightly so but I know what helps me.)

Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to bed. Had a pretty nice evening with friends. (Then again, that seems so hard to believe for the internet strangers blasting at my posts.)

You are moving into the age of where you want it to be your own, religion, get beyond Thou Salt Nots, right?
You don’t have to throw out the commandments to figure this out.
There was a period I went through when my faith had to become my own, not just a set of rules. I focused on Adoration/Confession in addition to learning. The time I spent in prayer is what helped the most.
God isn’t just someone who set the rules for you, arbitrary, but someone who loves you and wants to draw you in closer, deeper relationship.

 

[EasterJoy]

…Once I start judging things by the standards of something else besides yours truly, I devolve into a codependent thinker. Ten Commandments. Fear of God’s judgment. These are things I’ve grown sick of ruling in my life so I gave them the boot.

That’s my journey of self-discovery. That’s what I learned when I finally started living a life instead of worrying whether or not I was a sick, hyper-sexual human begin. Honestly, among Catholics here, I see a culture that will stigmatize me the same way it stigmatizes those who openly practice any other alternative lifestyle. The only reason why I’m still here is that these people implore me to hold out and not lose hope for what the Faith still has to offer…Oddly enough, seeing women as ‘objects’ gave me a better sense of how to talk to them and get better ideas on what goes on in their heads. You may despise it and rightly so but I know what helps me.)

Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to bed. Had a pretty nice evening with friends. (Then again, that seems so hard to believe for the internet strangers blasting at my posts.)

I don’t doubt that a secular view gives you a better idea of what other people in a club are thinking, considering how even Christians will say they think and act when they’re out on Saturday nights, by their own admission.

That you’ve rejected all need to form your conscience according to anything but your own inclination, even to the point of renouncing the Ten Commandments, does seem to indicate you’ve chosen to repudiate the faith entirely. You seem to reject recourse to the Church’s moral teaching authority as mere co-dependence. You seem to find correction personally insulting. With no sense of sin and no time for guilt, what need could you have for a Savior? What am I missing here? Why don’t you self-identify as an apostate?

 

[EasterJoy]

You are moving into the age of where you want it to be your own, religion, get beyond Thou Salt Nots, right?
You don’t have to throw out the commandments to figure this out.
There was a period I went through when my faith had to become my own, not just a set of rules. I focused on Adoration/Confession in addition to learning. The time I spent in prayer is what helped the most.
God isn’t just someone who set the rules for you, arbitrary, but someone who loves you and wants to draw you in closer, deeper relationship.

Yes, you are right, the Commandments are not gods. Love is not merely a matter of confinement to boundaries. Love does make demands, though, and these will be felt as in opposition to our automatic inclinations. Giving “muscle memory” to virtue requires considerable work, and renunciation of self-interest’s first impulse.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I see no evidence that Edison was the kind of person to portion out blame to external ideologies for his lack of success, so using him on your behalf just doesn’t work because apportioning blame is precisely what you have done in this thread, so it wouldn’t be surprising to find you doing the same to the second opinion as you did to Catholicism, Edison notwithstanding.

False accusation and you know it. Your definition of blame lies in the false premise that I wait around and whine until Catholicism ‘fixes’ my life. That’s half your post in a nutshell. If this is your impression, it means you’re only good at seeing the tip of my iceberg. Not to mention you follow this up with the most predictable suggestion that I’m repeating the same pattern.

You don’t know me personally enough to say that. Not. One. Bit.

Like the rest of the presumptuous bunch, you seek to complicate a situation you’re not even privy to. You continue to ignore that I am, much like Edison, discarding methods that don’t create my lightbulb. I declared that the religion interfered too much to produce any success and you call it blame. This is wisdom? Maybe only in your life but it’s not mine.

I see ideologies as a means to an end. Whether or not I ‘mastered Catholicism’ or should seek further to understand ‘truth’ is irrelevant. My quest is not the same as yours philosopher. I have a life to live after all.

He wouldn’t construct gigantic ideological caricatures to burn in effigy. As far as I know, he didn’t, which is why Con Ed doesn’t work for you.

Oh so that what it looks like to you? I’m sorry if stating that Catholicism didn’t work well for me makes you feel like I’m burning you at the stake over a bonfire of Bibles.

Maybe if you didn’t put too much emotional stock into this monolithic belief system, you wouldn’t be so overly sensitive that you ignore the essence of what I’m say: It didn’t work for me.

Furthermore, to say the bonfire is full of strawmen made of KJV-only pages is like saying this religion doesn’t actually condemn me for being what I am.

Oh if you only knew me as much as the religion.

You are moving into the age of where you want it to be your own, religion, get beyond Thou Salt Nots, right?

It’s beyond that. Heck, back then I was raring to drive past this age because I saw it through the same eyes of older people that never stopped whining about how secular culture is driving the youth on highway to hell.

Ironically, the same gurus of this culture comprise of old people too. Only difference is that they taught me to have a better perspective on my life (no matter how New Age-y or liberal the source).

You don’t have to throw out the commandments to figure this out.

I’ve certainly had to throw out great expansions of it that were laid down by the Church.

I focused on Adoration/Confession in addition to learning.

And if I don’t want to focus in places like that?

The time I spent in prayer is what helped the most.

Meanwhile, life threw me a curve ball. To the face. That taught me more than sitting in front of a monstrance or inside a vestibule.

God isn’t just someone who set the rules for you, arbitrary, but someone who loves you and wants to draw you in closer, deeper relationship.

I don’t dispute this, surprisingly. What I dispute are online strangers who think they understand something that’s supposed to be just between me and the Almighty.

With no sense of sin and no time for guilt, what need could you have for a Savior? What am I missing here? Why don’t you self-identify as an apostate?

Isn’t the fact that you’ve labeled me a prodigal enough for you?

 

[Rau]

It didn’t work for me.

The criminal law does not work for bank robbers either. I agree with you that if the goal is to rob a bank, rejecting the criminal law is the only logical course to follow, and analogously for comparable endeavours. I think your logic in this regard s intact, as is that offered here:

Originally Posted by EasterJoy
With no sense of sin and no time for guilt, what need could you have for a Savior? What am I missing here? Why don’t you self-identify as an apostate?

 

[Hopey]

Meanwhile, life threw me a curve ball. To the face. That taught me more than sitting in front of a monstrance or inside a vestibule.

Is your curve ball, as you call it, a wound to you or someone close to you? Unanswered prayers?

If I were to disregard the laws of the road, and not only speed when I wanted to, but drive wherever I wanted to (sidewalks, lawns), do you think that would cause a problem to myself and others?

The codependency you reference to when speaking of God’s law is from us, our understanding, not because God wants you like that. We are dependent on God for everything because he created us. He doesn’t take your freedom away either which is what happens in a codependent relationship, manipulation, unhealthy boundaries. We are free to say yes or no. He will even let us say no and suffer the consequences as a good father would, but his mercy endures forever.

 

[Demetra2]

I have long found this to be a pretty insulting and not at all apt analogy.

First, my spouse is not a new car. I am not “buying” her. If I don’t know that I can live with her before I marry her, sex isn’t going to simplify my discernment process. It is only going to make it more complicated. Statistics back that up, too. Cohabitation and the like lead people to make worse marriage decisions, not better ones.

Second, even if we do allow for a “shopping” analogy, a more apt comparison would be a new house. I may go and check out a new house, but they sure won’t let me live in it until I sign on the dotted line. And even if they did, living in it for one night isn’t honestly going to tell me much about the long term.

I think the whole idea of “sexual compatibility” is way overblown. It’s not as though I would be passionately in love with my spouse and then mysteriously not enjoy having sex with her. Frankly, I don’t see how that would ever be possible.

This. Thank you

 

[EasterJoy]

I don’t dispute this, surprisingly. What I dispute are online strangers win the Lord, someone we o think they understand something that’s supposed to be just between me and the Almighty.

Isn’t the fact that you’ve labeled me a prodigal enough for you?

Dear one, have you forgotten that you call yourself Catholic? This makes you no stranger, but a brother in the Lord, someone we are duty-bound to offer fraternal correction. If you want us to treat you like a non-believer, then why do you resist it so much when we ask if embracing apostasy is your intention? I fail to see what makes this some sort of uncharitable “labelling.” We are only asking on what grounds you insist that we leave you alone with our reminders about what our common faith requires of us all.

 

[thewanderer]

Lost Wanderer

Do you mind if I ask why you are still posting on this thread?

(And please don’t mistake that as me trying to stop you from posting here, I just honestly don’t understand why you are still posting if all you are doing is posting to tell people they can’t possibly understand you or your situation. Do you feel like you need to prove yourself to them? Are you looking for advice that you will find helpful? Are you looking for people to agree with you? Are you interested in an actual discussion about your position vs the “Catholic” opinions that drove you away vs what the Catholic Church actually teaches vs the players handbook? Are you just venting? The reason I’m asking is because its hard for anyone to respond constructively when it is unclear what you are trying to accomplish.)

 

[Jobis]

False accusation and you know it. Your definition of blame lies in the false premise that I wait around and whine until Catholicism ‘fixes’ my life. That’s half your post in a nutshell. If this is your impression, it means you’re only good at seeing the tip of my iceberg. Not to mention you follow this up with the most predictable suggestion that I’m repeating the same pattern.

You don’t know me personally enough to say that. Not. One. Bit.

Like the rest of the presumptuous bunch, you seek to complicate a situation you’re not even privy to. You continue to ignore that I am, much like Edison, discarding methods that don’t create my lightbulb. I declared that the religion interfered too much to produce any success and you call it blame. This is wisdom? Maybe only in your life but it’s not mine.

I see ideologies as a means to an end. Whether or not I ‘mastered Catholicism’ or should seek further to understand ‘truth’ is irrelevant. My quest is not the same as yours philosopher. I have a life to live after all.

Oh so that what it looks like to you? I’m sorry if stating that Catholicism didn’t work well for me makes you feel like I’m burning you at the stake over a bonfire of Bibles.

Maybe if you didn’t put too much emotional stock into this monolithic belief system, you wouldn’t be so overly sensitive that you ignore the essence of what I’m say: It didn’t work for me.

Furthermore, to say the bonfire is full of strawmen made of KJV-only pages is like saying this religion doesn’t actually condemn me for being what I am.

Oh if you only knew me as much as the religion.

It’s beyond that. Heck, back then I was raring to drive past this age because I saw it through the same eyes of older people that never stopped whining about how secular culture is driving the youth on highway to hell.

Ironically, the same gurus of this culture comprise of old people too. Only difference is that they taught me to have a better perspective on my life (no matter how New Age-y or liberal the source).

I’ve certainly had to throw out great expansions of it that were laid down by the Church.

And if I don’t want to focus in places like that?

Meanwhile, life threw me a curve ball. To the face. That taught me more than sitting in front of a monstrance or inside a vestibule.

I don’t dispute this, surprisingly. What I dispute are online strangers who think they understand something that’s supposed to be just between me and the Almighty.

Isn’t the fact that you’ve labeled me a prodigal enough for you?

You don’t sound like the prodigal son, you sound like his brother. It seems that while you were ‘trying out’ Catholicism you were secretly envious of those who lead lives without a moral compass. You can’t expect to become a Catholic and not be changed in your heart and mind, it takes time; its not a ‘born again’ one-time experience as such, but it can happen gradually. You get out what you put into it, and more.

Plus when you spill out your feelings of frustration on an internet board, don’t get defensive when people call you out on your vying for attention and/or offer critical advice. What did you expect?

 

[SouthernBelle00]

Of course the Bible says that sex outside of marriage is a sin.

But we know that sex is a major issue that can make or break a marriage. It is important for people to know what their partners like and don’t like in sex, and how much libido their partners have. We know that a marriage that is not open to life is also a sin, in Catholicism. We know that lack of sex, or bad sex, can ruin relationships and destroy marriages.

So practically speaking, despite what the Bible says, don’t people need to “test drive the car before they buy it,” in other words, have sex before marriage to test each other’s sexual compatibility? Isn’t it a foolish risk to not “test drive a car before buying it?” Wouldn’t it be a possible setup for failure to not have sex before marriage?

Let’s discuss.

Exactly, because that’s what marriage is all about: sex.

 

[Peter_Plato]

False accusation and you know it. Your definition of blame lies in the false premise that** I wait around and whine until Catholicism ‘fixes’ my life**.

You are correct, my definition of “blame” relies on the premise that you did “wait around” and then whined because “Catholicism” didn’t “fix” your life, but that premise was based upon the content of your posts, themselves.

The waiting…

I did the complete opposite approach. I thought I could handle it. I thought had it figured out. I didn’t listen to the advice of my peers. I thought I was being real cool and Catholic like for taking it slow. (“Oh yeah, look at me I’m not taking dating advice cuz that’s sooo secular-trendy.”)

Then she wounds up picked by some ogre-faced goon whose half-baked flirting did way more than my little conservative approach hoped to accomplish.

Do not tell me to find someone else. I lost because I had such a sissy, faux-hipster, sour-grapes mentality. Never again will I believe in a God who thinks and acts like a medieval matchmaker.

In fact, that you “waited around” and shunned any and all advice because you presumed your tenuous grasp of “Catholicism” would “fix your life” is almost verbatim what you say here below.

Hence, the blaming…

Yeah well I still blame the counter-culture attitude of conservative Catholicism all the same. It’s the only thing that could explain for **why I shunned any and all advice on self-improvement **cuz it all came from New Age and secular self-help literature.

Heck, you tell me not to consult those same players and dating books. But when in fact, had I did, I wouldn’t be having such a desperate time crawling out of this drama-rama hole I’m now in!

Pardon me for reading your posts as if they reflected reality at some level.

If you really are past your “blaming” you wouldn’t grab onto and react so emotionally to what are obviously the passing observations of Internet posters.

Your emotional reaction itself in this thread is evidence of your inability to get beyond “blaming” precisely because you put so much stock in what others have to say, rather than accept and face the fact that it was YOUR rendering of Catholicism that put you where you ended up.

You cannot even entertain the notion that Catholicism may not be what you thought it was, which puts you back at ** "I thought I could handle it. I thought I had it figured out. I didn’t listen to the advice of my peers. I thought I was being real cool and Catholic like… **

Now it’s…
** "I think I can handle it. I think I have it figured out. I still won’t listen to the advice of some of my peers (just a different set.) I think I am being real cool and unCatholic like… **

Same issue, same psychology, just different incidentals, as far as I can tell. You haven’t changed as much as you think you have.

Do me a favour and instead of “reacting” again, wrap up this sequence of posts with something like:

“You know, I will take into consideration what you have said. I will not respond again except to say maybe I haven’t got it figured out and this is something I do need to think about a little more before I respond or act. Thanks for expressing your concern. I appreciate it.”

That would be evidence, as far as I am concerned, that you HAVE made progress, provided you can be sincere in posting it.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

You are correct, my definition of “blame” relies on the premise that you did “wait around” and then whined because “Catholicism” didn’t “fix” your life, but that premise was based upon the content of your posts, themselves.

Correction: It’s based upon your interpretation of my posts. And boy, is it a misguided one at that.

If you really are past your “blaming” you wouldn’t grab onto and react so emotionally to what are obviously the passing observations of Internet posters.

Says the guy with an emotional reaction to people saying Catholicism didn’t work out well in their lives nor have any more desire to.

Clearly you’ve forgotten that I’m on this thread by the very advice that was remotely helpful: Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Sadly, I have yet to see the baby in the midst of these sweeping, typical, and oh-so-predictable condemnations and corrections.

Your emotional reaction itself in this thread is evidence of your inability to get beyond “blaming” precisely because you put so much stock in what others have to say, rather than accept and face the fact that it was YOUR rendering of Catholicism that put you where you ended up.

Excuse me? I’ve already stated over and over that Catholicism and I don’t mix. Rendering or not, I am tired and no longer wish to pursue any serious investment unless my personal quest reaches that point.

Don’t fool yourself, however, to thinking that point is going to be reached by imploring me.

You cannot even entertain the notion that Catholicism may not be what you thought it was.

I did. Unfortunately, people like you are only increasing my doubts because all that’s been said here so far is still very characteristic of how I used to approach Catholicism.

Same issue, same psychology, just different incidentals, as far as I can tell. You haven’t changed as much as you think you have.

You don’t know me personally enough to say that. The fact that you, and so many others, so naively think they do really disgusts me. Must be nice to presume so much from behind your computer Plato.

And no, I blatantly reject your request to ‘take into consideration’ what you’ve said. I have no appreciation to your presumptuous attacks you call ‘advice.’ The only thing you need to congratulate yourself on is the fact that you’ve only hardened my convictions.

The criminal law does not work for bank robbers either. I agree with you that if the goal is to rob a bank, rejecting the criminal law is the only logical course to follow, and analogously for comparable endeavours.

Right. And banks aren’t criminals. Criminal law doesn’t work for bank robbers but it seems to work for financial institutions. (Ain’t that right BoA, JP Morgan, and HSBC? )

Is your curve ball, as you call it, a wound to you or someone close to you? Unanswered prayers?

Hm… let me think.

All of the above.

If I were to disregard the laws of the road, and not only speed when I wanted to, but drive wherever I wanted to (sidewalks, lawns), do you think that would cause a problem to myself and others?

Not when it doesn’t. I’ll take my actual experience riding with my friends over moral hypotheticals often typical of online boards.

You don’t sound like the prodigal son, you sound like his brother.

Perhaps that brother should’ve left the house.

Plus when you spill out your feelings of frustration on an internet board, don’t get defensive when people call you out on your vying for attention and/or offer critical advice. What did you expect?

If anyone’s defensive, it’s the people who presume the know a poster personally for the sake of defending a religious institution over actually helping anyone with a problem.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Are you looking for advice that you will find helpful?

Actually, yes I am. Now if only you guys could actually be helpful or be humble enough to admit that what I’m reading here is nothing new. Good God, the best I got are some new sources that led outside these boards (thanks Xantippe ).

Are you interested in an actual discussion about your position vs the “Catholic” opinions that drove you away vs what the Catholic Church actually teaches vs the players handbook?

I was about to consider how much of Catholicism I got ‘wrong’ but the presumptuous condescension served to me now inclines me to wonder if the ‘right’ Catholicism really isn’t any different from the views I’ve come to reject.

I swear the day these boards become even remotely reliable is the day I am free to discuss my sexual fantasies here.

Dear one, have you forgotten that you call yourself Catholic?

So do Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden. As much as I laugh at their politics, the fact that you can barely exercise any influence on them is enough to make this irrelevant.

This makes you no stranger, but a brother in the Lord, someone we are duty-bound to offer fraternal correction.

You’re as much a patient in this hospital of sinners as I am. Worst still, you’re trying to play doctor. Over the internet.

If you want us to treat you like a non-believer, then why do you resist it so much when we ask if embracing apostasy is your intention?

Resist? I’m sorry, I don’t know what part of “Can’t see religion working for me” constitutes as ‘resisting.’

I am very open to ideas except to those that I’ve already tried. The people telling me that my Catholicism could’ve been different but I don’t see much of a different at all in what they’re saying.

 

[Rau]

Criminal law doesn’t work for bank robbers…

If anyone’s defensive, it’s the people who presume the know a poster personally for the sake of defending a religious institution over actually helping anyone with a problem.

As you point out, it doesn’t work for thieves of any kind - it runs counter to their immediate objectives!

Given that you’ve been clear that “religion just doesn’t work for you”, the most sensible and on-point contribution I’ve read on this thread was this:

Originally Posted by EasterJoyWith no sense of sin and no time for guilt, what need could you have for a Savior? What am I missing here? Why don’t you self-identify as an apostate?

Just curious…

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

As you point out, it doesn’t work for thieves of any kind - it runs counter to their immediate objectives!

Really? I don’t see bankers in jail without spending more dollars in a courtroom. Sounds like you define criminal based on who’s not standing behind a desk.

 

[Rau]

Originally Posted by thewanderer
Are you looking for advice that you will find helpful?

Actually, yes I am.

What would motivate you, – who have declared such abject rejection of Catholicism, and how you are doing so much better without it, – to come to CAF looking for assistance? You would understand and expect that the majority of folks here have not rejected Catholicism, and are likely to address topics from the perspective of Catholic morality. I would have thought it’s a bit crazy for you to come here looking for advice and expecting to find something TOOOOOO different from what you’ve already rejected. You said it yourself:

“I am very open to ideas except to those that I’ve already tried…”
You’re just gonna get a sore head, and who’d be to blame for that??

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

I would have thought it’s a bit crazy for you to come here looking for advice and expecting to find something TOOOOOO different from what you’ve already rejected.

Yet these very people are the ones who are saying I got Catholicism wrong, that it was but a ‘rendering’, that I needed more investment.

From a customer perspective, a business can only do this for so long without starting to sound like its making excuses. Who’s the real crazy one here?

 

[Rau]

Really? I don’t see bankers in jail without spending more dollars in a courtroom. Sounds like you define criminal based on who’s not standing behind a desk.

Those who intend to steal reject the criminal law and go ahead and steal. They choose not to respect the law, 'cause respecting the law would cause them to not steal. In this sense, the criminal law “does not work for them” - it runs counter to their goals. Rejecting it is the only logical course for someone committed to stealing to follow.

Those who concluded their social life sucks, and figure (by some process…) it must be Catholicism with all its do’s and don’ts, and so decide to “do the don’ts” (say, test driving women in bed…) will also need to reject any moral law that might stand in their way. You chose to commit to other approaches which demand that you reject Catholicism (or else, you’d be acting illogically, or at least counter to conscience). In all of this, your logic is impeccable. Now, I think there is going to be a question of “baby and bathwater” to be assessed by you at some point, but that may take a while to be resolved according to the **ultimate **outcomes you experience. But I certainly don’t know you well enough to speculate about that. As you’ve said, it will be between you and the Almighty.

 

[Rau]

Yet these very people are the ones who are saying I got Catholicism wrong, that it was but a ‘rendering’, that I needed more investment.

From a customer perspective, a business can only do this for so long without starting to sound like its making excuses. Who’s the real crazy one here?

Exactly Lost Wanderer - if you keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result…, surely you’ll be disappointed most of the time. Of you may get lucky, there are a wide range of people posting here.