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Anneg
Guest
Hey, Y’all, I have carried Practice of the Presence of God all over the world with me, but have noticed several translations. Any recommendations for a modern one? Which is best? Blessings, Anneg
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reen12
Guest
quote: Anneg
I can’t remember the translator of my copy of same.
I’ll look to see if I can find it.
For those not familiar with this work, it is availabe online.
The Practice of the Presence of God
Christian Classics Ethereal Library:
ccel.org/ccel/lawrence/practice.html
and is also available at:
Project Gutenberg
gutenberg.org/catalog/world/results
Do the words of Brother Lawrence remind you of the Little Way
of St.Therese of Lisieux?
I love, too, the Orthodox work The Way of the Pilgrim.
I think the translator’s name is French -in the copy that I prefer.
Best,
reen12
Hello Anneg, and welcome to CAF.
I can’t remember the translator of my copy of same.
I’ll look to see if I can find it.
For those not familiar with this work, it is availabe online.
The Practice of the Presence of God
Christian Classics Ethereal Library:
ccel.org/ccel/lawrence/practice.html
and is also available at:
Project Gutenberg
gutenberg.org/catalog/world/results
Do the words of Brother Lawrence remind you of the Little Way
of St.Therese of Lisieux?
I love, too, the Orthodox work The Way of the Pilgrim.
I think the translator’s name is French -in the copy that I prefer.
Best,
reen12
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Anneg
Guest
I guess I relate much better to Brother Lawrence. I, too, love the Way of the Pilgrim. Of the Teresa’s I relate a lot to St Teresa of Avila (del Nin~o Jesus). I read her before I became Cathollic, many years ago in college in Spanish.
I’ve given lots of people the Practice books, including Protestants. Some have really gotten a lot out of it, especially since so many have so little exposure to spiritual literature at the level of prayer and virtues.
I find I can keep going back to it and learn more about following the Lord.
Thanks so much, but would still like to hear from anybody about which current edition is better.
PAX, Anneg
I’ve given lots of people the Practice books, including Protestants. Some have really gotten a lot out of it, especially since so many have so little exposure to spiritual literature at the level of prayer and virtues.
I find I can keep going back to it and learn more about following the Lord.
Thanks so much, but would still like to hear from anybody about which current edition is better.
PAX, Anneg
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DBT
Guest
For all things Carmelite, I prefer the ICS translations:
www.icspublications.com/bookstore/others/b_others09.html
This version is wonderful
It includes his letters, maxims, conversations and so on with updated terminology (i.e. using “mental prayer” as a desciption of his way)It also provides a wealth of background info including why he is so popular with Protestants which you noted in your post. There’s also a lengthy discussion on how his teaching was used and mis-used in the Felon-Bousset Controversy which makes for fascinating reading in itself.
Hope this helps . . .
Dave.
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Anneg
Guest
Thanks, I’ll look it up there. But, what is the Felon-Bousset Controversy? I did a search and can’t find anything. Thanks, Anneg
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brigid12
Guest
Interesting you should say that about Brother Lawrence and St. Therese as both are favorites of mine. And a number of years ago I also read (and loved) The Way of the Pilgrim. Before I ever learned the Hail Mary, I was breathing/saying the Jesus Prayer - and it helped me so much.
The copy of the practice of the presence of God I have now (which is different from when I first read it - and which I preferred to this one) is published by Whitaker House @1982
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reen12
Guest
quote: brigid12
For some reason, I could never read the work of St. Therese of Lisieux.
Her use of royal imagery was off-putting for me.
But the first time I read of Brother Lawrence, his was a work that
also presented the little way, I thought.
One part that has stayed with me, was his trip to buy goods for the
monastery - where he notes his physical infirmity, and says that
he has put his work in God’s hands, to make the matter go well,
as it was God’s work that he was about.
There is a great simplicty, here. The other reason that Brother Lawrence
remains in my memory, is that Brother Lawrence kept at his work, for decades,
and this particularly appeals to me as a role model, as I get older - and ache all over.
Brother Lawrence inspires me.
reen12
Thank you for replying to my question, brigid12
For some reason, I could never read the work of St. Therese of Lisieux.
Her use of royal imagery was off-putting for me.
But the first time I read of Brother Lawrence, his was a work that
also presented the little way, I thought.
One part that has stayed with me, was his trip to buy goods for the
monastery - where he notes his physical infirmity, and says that
he has put his work in God’s hands, to make the matter go well,
as it was God’s work that he was about.
There is a great simplicty, here. The other reason that Brother Lawrence
remains in my memory, is that Brother Lawrence kept at his work, for decades,
and this particularly appeals to me as a role model, as I get older - and ache all over.
Brother Lawrence inspires me.
reen12
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reen12
Guest
quote: Anneg
google.com/search?hl=en&q=Fenelon+Bossuet+controversy&btnG=Google+Search
I know nothing about the issues involved, but I knew the
name “Fenelon,” so I googled that, and found the names
Fenelon and Boussuet listed together.
reen12
Might this be a reference to the Fenelon/Bossuet controversy?
google.com/search?hl=en&q=Fenelon+Bossuet+controversy&btnG=Google+Search
I know nothing about the issues involved, but I knew the
name “Fenelon,” so I googled that, and found the names
Fenelon and Boussuet listed together.
reen12
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DBT
Guest
Might have spelled the names wrong but this was one of those periodic debates over Quietism that crop up throughout Church history. Brother Lawrence had nothing to do with it but his writings got dragged into it after he died. Interestingly both sides of the arguement used his writings to support their point of view.
The whole debate is rather obscure today . . . but it was a really big deal back in the late 1600’s. From what I recall (and I might be off on some points) the basic gist went something like this: Does the holy and virtuous soul, truly surrendered to God’s will in all things, forsake hope if he states he’d accept hell if that’s where God thinks he should be. The Quietist point of view was that yes, even the virtue of hope of eternal life must be passively given up in effort to renounce desire of all kinds. The resolution - which I believe was mediated by the Pope - confirmed that hope is never forsaken by souls committed to following God’s will . . . even in the extreme hypothesis put forth in this controversy.
Dave.
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DBT
Guest
. . . from Reen12’s link, a good summary. I bolded the parts that most directly relate to what I tried to say.
Dave.
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reen12
Guest
quote: DBT
Need to run, because I have an appointment
this afternoon, but will return and read, in full,
the material that you’ve quoted
Many thanks,
reen12
Thank you, Dave, for providing explanation.
Need to run, because I have an appointment
this afternoon, but will return and read, in full,
the material that you’ve quoted
Many thanks,
reen12
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brigid12
Guest
It is so important for me to hear (again-constantly I think) that after he puts the work in God’s hands, to make the matter go well and, that then it is God’s work. I give work to Him and then take it back (and get anxious). Silly me!
(And it makes it more manageable as I get older and don’t have the energy to do all that seems necessary, also.)
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DBT
Guest
. . . and your links provide a very nice recap for anyone interested in exploring futher.
As a further digression, my very first post on CAF nearly 4 years ago asked this question: Has Brother Lawrence ever been considered for cannonization?
I never got an answer but I now suspect the fact he got dragged into this very ugly and bitter controversy between bishops and kings killed his cause. Nobody came out of it looking very good and the participants are now all but lost to history. But Brother Lawrence remains; teaching and guiding souls to this day. Thank God for that!
Dave.
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reen12
Guest
quote: brigid12
I turned 62 today, and
62 is not 52 at alllllll. And, yes, it is silly, to try to run things
on my own. To snatch back some concern, thinking that I
‘understand’ it better than He does.
My grandmother, born in 1895, used to say
“You can’t put old heads on young shoulders.”
I wish Gram was here, now. I’d ask her what to do,
when I* am* now aging - with no “wisdom” in sight!
It was the matter-of-factness, with which Brother Lawrence
spoke, that cheers me up. Of* course* one puts things in the
hands of God. Maybe on the 72nd birthday, I’ll have finally
internalized what I know in my head.
What Dave is saying
quote: DBT
of Brother Lawerence. All I know is, that I can identify with
Brother Lawrence, and that he sets such a splendid example
of living one’s life in God.
The Practice of the Presence of God
Christian Classics Ethereal Library:
ccel.org/ccel/lawrence/practice.html
reen12
A well-appreciated post, brigid12.It is so important for me to hear (again-constantly I think) that after he puts the work in God’s hands, to make the matter go well and, that then it is God’s work. I give work to Him and then take it back (and get anxious). Silly me!
(And it makes it more manageable as I get older and don’t have the energy to do all that seems necessary, also.)
I turned 62 today, and62 is not 52 at alllllll. And, yes, it is silly, to try to run things
on my own. To snatch back some concern, thinking that I
‘understand’ it better than He does.
My grandmother, born in 1895, used to say
“You can’t put old heads on young shoulders.”
I wish Gram was here, now. I’d ask her what to do,
when I* am* now aging - with no “wisdom” in sight!
It was the matter-of-factness, with which Brother Lawrence
spoke, that cheers me up. Of* course* one puts things in the
hands of God. Maybe on the 72nd birthday, I’ll have finally
internalized what I know in my head.
What Dave is saying
quote: DBT
is quite likely what happened, in terms of the canonization
of Brother Lawerence. All I know is, that I can identify with
Brother Lawrence, and that he sets such a splendid example
of living one’s life in God.
The Practice of the Presence of God
Christian Classics Ethereal Library:
ccel.org/ccel/lawrence/practice.html
reen12
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reen12
Guest
Dave, the material that you quoted was fascinating.
quote: DBT
40 years ago, I was trying to come to grips with the thought of ‘quietism.’
Maybe that’s where I came upon the name ‘Molinos.’
My interest is now piqued, and I think that I shall look further
into this.
I do think there is some wisdom in the saying:
“Pray, as if everything depended on God. Act, as if
all depended on you.”
That might consititute the via media, I think.
Once again, thank you for providing that information, Dave. :tiphat:
reen12
quote: DBT
I do recall the name ‘Molinos,’ but could not remember the context.
40 years ago, I was trying to come to grips with the thought of ‘quietism.’
Maybe that’s where I came upon the name ‘Molinos.’
My interest is now piqued, and I think that I shall look further
into this.
I do think there is some wisdom in the saying:
“Pray, as if everything depended on God. Act, as if
all depended on you.”
That might consititute the via media, I think.
Once again, thank you for providing that information, Dave. :tiphat:
reen12
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BarbaraTherese
Guest
Fascinating reading in this thread…and I am learning too. I can understand if Brother Lawrence’s canonization did not go forward due to controversies around his writings in his day and after. But nowadays he is recognized as a classical spiritual writer of high recommendation…I wonder why his cause is not raised now - in our modern day with our new insights. I am a great fan of Brother Lawrence and his Practise of the Presence of God and as Reen said, written with such down to earth simplicity and lack of the flowery language of some classics - though excellent works nonethless. One style attracts one person, another will attract another and I find it a major concentration effort to get at the nitty gritty under the flowery language (my term) of some of the classics.
Blessings as Easter draws to the close…4th May The Ascension…11May Pentecost…Barb
Blessings as Easter draws to the close…4th May The Ascension…11May Pentecost…Barb
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reen12
Guest
I can think of two reasons, Barb, why his cause is not forwarded.
*
First, it would require a fair sum, to begin the process,
and I note that religious orders or communities can get
“organized,” to approach Rome, in terms of having one
of the community/order accepted for the first stages ofthe canonization process. Secondly, Brother Lawrence is
pretty far back, in time, and I can’t imagine that there would
be enough accounts of his life writtten, upon which to base
a request that Brother Lawrence be considered to be elevated, eventually, to sainthood.
In a somewhat parallel instance, Benedict Joseph Labre,
who is thought to have endured schizophrenia, was elevated
to sainthood not too long after his death. His confessor,
Father Marconi wrote a biography about Labre, shortly
after Benedict’s death, and when the saint passed away,
at the age of 33, the chilren of Rome ran throughtout the
city, crying out: “The saint is dead.” Benedict spent several
years in Rome, praying, most of the day, in one of Rome’s
churches, sleeping in a crevice in the Coliseum at night.
Often ill, he was cared for in one of the hospices for men.*
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reen12
Guest
quote:BarbaraTherese
*
First, it would require a fair sum, to begin the process.
Secondly, Brother Lawrence is pretty far back, in time, and I can’t imagine that there would be enough contemporary accounts of his life written, upon which to base a request that
Brother Lawrence be considered to be elevated, eventually, to sainthood.
In a somewhat parallel instance, Benedict Joseph Labre,
who is thought to have endured schizophrenia, was elevated
to sainthood, relatively quickly. His confessor, Father Marconi, wrote a biography about Labre, shortly after Benedict’s death, in 1783, and when the saint passed away, at the age of 33, the children of Rome ran throughout the streets of the city, crying out: “The saint is dead.”
Benedict spent several years in Rome, praying, most of the day, in the church of
Santa Maria dei Monti, sleeping in a crevice in the Coliseum at night. Often ill, he was cared for in one of the hospices for men.
Benedict was well known, in the eternal city, and he was canonized, 100 years after his death.
bowdoin.edu/~hholbroo/index4.html
bowdoin.edu/~hholbroo/
Hic jacet corpus, above the statue of Benedict, translates,
“Here lies the body…”]
reen*
I can think of two reasons, Barb, why his cause is not forwarded.
*
First, it would require a fair sum, to begin the process.
Secondly, Brother Lawrence is pretty far back, in time, and I can’t imagine that there would be enough contemporary accounts of his life written, upon which to base a request that
Brother Lawrence be considered to be elevated, eventually, to sainthood.
In a somewhat parallel instance, Benedict Joseph Labre,
who is thought to have endured schizophrenia, was elevated
to sainthood, relatively quickly. His confessor, Father Marconi, wrote a biography about Labre, shortly after Benedict’s death, in 1783, and when the saint passed away, at the age of 33, the children of Rome ran throughout the streets of the city, crying out: “The saint is dead.”
Benedict spent several years in Rome, praying, most of the day, in the church of
Santa Maria dei Monti, sleeping in a crevice in the Coliseum at night. Often ill, he was cared for in one of the hospices for men.
Benedict was well known, in the eternal city, and he was canonized, 100 years after his death.
bowdoin.edu/~hholbroo/index4.html
bowdoin.edu/~hholbroo/
Hic jacet corpus, above the statue of Benedict, translates,
“Here lies the body…”]
reen*
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DBT
Guest
There was a lot of suspicion about the “new mystics” in the late 1600’s due in large part to the Quietism heresy of Molinos at that time.
Another interesting tidbit . . . another very popular author on these forums - Fr. Pierre de Cuassade - was also caught up in all of this. If you’re familiar with “Abandonment to Divine Providence” and read his work closely you can see where he attacks the contemplative excesses of the Quietists associated with Molinos in no uncertain terms.
But one of the unfortunate consequences of the controversy was that Fenelon, intended or not, blurred the distinctions between authentic mystics of his day like Br. Lawrence and Fr. de Cuassade with those of the Quietists. This created quite a bit of confusion about all things mystical. And throw Quietism in with the other heresy of the time - Jansenism sp?? (an inordinate fear of a vengful God where few if any are saved) and we can begin to see why anything related to contemplation was viewed with suspicion.
Ironically, it took another French mystic nearly 200 years later (St. Therese of Liseaux) to break the viscious hold these heresies had on the Church. We all know what an electric response Story of a Soul had almost immediately . . . but it’s hard today to understand just why since she’s so familiar to us. Her work stressing a merciful God competely accessable through prayer couldn’t have been more radical in her day. It represented a complete break from the mindset of the time that, unfortunately, stretched all the way back to the days of Brother Lawrence.
Which is all quite unfortunate for Brother Lawrence because in many ways I view him as a male Therese . . . who simply got caught up in the tides of history.
Dave.
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reen12
Guest
quote: DBT
quote: DBT
Brother Lawrence canonized, He would have arranged for this to take place.
Sometimes, I cross-referrence theories of human psychology,
when considering the relationship of God to man.
There is the counsel, from Christ Himself, that we should be child-like, toward God.
Yet there’s St. Paul, speaking of “…when I became a man, I put away childish things…”
[Ever keeping in mind that “child-like” and “childish” are world’s apart.]
So where, in heaven’s name, does quietism fit in? If quietism is defined as
a total passivity in life, then that would not even be healthy - in terms psychologic.
We are to “love mercy, do justice, and walk humbly with our God.”
I had two volumes of the letters of St. Teresa of Avila. Now* there* was a woman
who knew what time of day it was, in terms of things practical. Her letters to her brother
read like an accountant’s statement, at times. A very practical, even hard-headed
business woman, in part.
To me, this is wholeness - writ large. This woman hardly looks like
the portrait of sole passivity to me.:coffeeread:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Teresa_of_Avila_dsc01644.jpg/627px-Teresa_of_Avila_dsc01644.jpg
Yet some souls may be caught in the crosswinds, not knowing what to do.
How maintain the childlike trust that Christ calls for, while conducting
ourselves in mature manner - in the face of the serious demands that life may make.
The stories of Reb Zusia, to me, limn a soul who found God, in mystical experience,
while trying to take care of his family.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=231100
Thank you for your much appreciated thoughts and observations, Dave.
Best,
reen
That’s very interesting, to find that de Cuassade, also, was caught up in this fray.
quote: DBT
This* is* very unfortunate, Dave Yet my thought is that, if God had wanted
Brother Lawrence canonized, He would have arranged for this to take place.
Sometimes, I cross-referrence theories of human psychology,
when considering the relationship of God to man.
There is the counsel, from Christ Himself, that we should be child-like, toward God.
Yet there’s St. Paul, speaking of “…when I became a man, I put away childish things…”
[Ever keeping in mind that “child-like” and “childish” are world’s apart.]
So where, in heaven’s name, does quietism fit in? If quietism is defined as
a total passivity in life, then that would not even be healthy - in terms psychologic.
We are to “love mercy, do justice, and walk humbly with our God.”
I had two volumes of the letters of St. Teresa of Avila. Now* there* was a woman
who knew what time of day it was, in terms of things practical. Her letters to her brother
read like an accountant’s statement, at times. A very practical, even hard-headed
business woman, in part.
To me, this is wholeness - writ large. This woman hardly looks like
the portrait of sole passivity to me.:coffeeread:
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Teresa_of_Avila_dsc01644.jpg/627px-Teresa_of_Avila_dsc01644.jpg
Yet some souls may be caught in the crosswinds, not knowing what to do.
How maintain the childlike trust that Christ calls for, while conducting
ourselves in mature manner - in the face of the serious demands that life may make.
The stories of Reb Zusia, to me, limn a soul who found God, in mystical experience,
while trying to take care of his family.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=231100
Thank you for your much appreciated thoughts and observations, Dave.
Best,
reen
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