"Praise and Worship" music: is it acceptable as liturgical music for Mass?

[JimR-OCDS]

that’s because the majority of bishops ( a.k.a Mahony ) and discourage Gregorian chant and insist on the “praise and worship” music and other entertainment. That is why it is unfamiliar to allot of Catholics today.

I never heard a Bishop discourage Gregorian chant, not have I ever head them, insist on praise and worship music. Most, were open to what the faithful, would compose.

The Monks of the Weston Priory - were probably the first to compose hymns, that we after Vatican II, which were used at Mass.

The St. Louis Jesuits - composed great hymns that are used today.

John Michael Talbot- wrote many songs, that can be used in the liturgy.

There are many others, but the Bishops did not commission these people to write the hymns we use, but neither did they reject them.

Jim

 

[benedictgal]

I have had it with you bashing this.

First of all,

" I could sing of your love forever"…is a PSALM!!!

Look at Psalm 34:
*1
1 2 Of David, when he feigned madness before Abimelech, who forced him to depart.
2
I will bless the LORD at all times; praise shall be always in my mouth.
3
My soul will glory in the LORD that the poor may hear and be glad.
4
Magnify the LORD with me; let us exalt his name together.
5
I sought the LORD, who answered me, delivered me from all my fears.
6
Look to God that you may be radiant with joy and your faces may not blush for shame.
7
In my misfortune I called, the LORD heard and saved me from all distress. *

*Psalms 63:3-6
3 Because your love is better than life, my lips will glorify you. 4 I will praise you as long as I live, and in your name I will lift up my hands. 5 My soul will be satisfied as with the richest of foods; with singing lips my mouth will praise you. 6 On my bed I remember you; I think of you through the watches of the night. *

Look, I’m not saying every song in OCP hymnal is theologically correct, but the stuff you have been spewing out is not even based on anything truthful.

Any good lifeteen music program has moved on from the SPirit and song hymnals for the most part.

Spirit and song vol 1 is mostly catholic composers

You said earlier that they have little in common with catholic theology. NOT SO. some have a questionable WORD…some have a weird way of singing about a concept…I don’t think these should be put in the mass.

but honestly about 90-95% of the songs I get from CCLI (which is an all emcompasing praise and worship publishing license), there is nothing incompatible with Catholic doctrine.

And you keep saying that its all about me, yet these songs that mention “I” in them are often someone’s humble prayer put to music…mostly based on the example of the psalms.

It is extremly insulting to say that it is glorifying the self…when someone is singing the words “forever I could sing of your love”, they are quoting a psalm.

Mary herself in the magnificat said “My sould magnifies the Lord and I rejoice in God my savior”

Modeling prayers after the way Mary prayed is not glorifying the self. It is still glorifying God

Agape, you have missed the point. When these contemporary praise and worship songs mostly talk about what the person is doing and repeat it several times, it becomes clear that the person is the actor and not God. The Magnificat is not like that at all. Mary says “My soul magnifies the Lord. and my soul rejoices in God my saviour…” she qualifies that because the Almighty has done great things for her and holy is His Name. She is indicating that God is the actor and she is grateful for what He has done for her. When she says that all generations will call her blessed, it’s a prediction that has since come true many, many times over, and continues today. But, she points it back to God.

Contemporary Praise and Worship music does not do that. It’s all about how wonderful we are and how much we love God. It does not take into account that we are sinners. If we keep saying how wonderful we are and how great it is to be in a community and forget our sinful condition, then, there is something wrong. Sure, hymns like God, We Praise You (paraphrase of the Te Deum), All Creatures of Our God and King, and Alleluia, Sing to Jesus, interject solemnity and joy; however, hymns like Attende Domine, Parce Domine, and Our Father, We Have Wandered also remind us that we are sinners who trust in the mercy of God.

I would challenge you to maybe, this Lent, insert some real meat and potatoes music into your repertoire like Our Father, We Have Wandered or O Sun of Justice, sans electric guitars, drums and keyboards. You’ll find that the youngsters will begin to turn inwardly and really reflect on things and would be better served than what OCP has to offer.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

and theres part of the problem. It’s always “we” and not about Christ.
Last I was told it was “Christs church” and not ours.

As I already pointed out from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The Church is the body of Christ, which is composed of its members.

Without its members, there is no Church.

Jim

 

[benedictgal]

I never heard a Bishop discourage Gregorian chant, not have I ever head them, insist on praise and worship music. Most, were open to what the faithful, would compose.

The Monks of the Weston Priory - were probably the first to compose hymns, that we after Vatican II, which were used at Mass.

The St. Louis Jesuits - composed great hymns that are used today.

John Michael Talbot- wrote many songs, that can be used in the liturgy.

There are many others, but the Bishops did not commission these people to write the hymns we use, but neither did they reject them.

Jim

While you may never have heard of a bishop reject Gregorian Chant, there are very rare and few cases where an Ordinary or a Metropolitan is actively seeking to have that in his territory.

The only reason why we are still stuck with the St. Louis Jesuits is because of the OCP marketing machine and its insertion of these songs into their hymnals. I personally think that their “usefulness” is past and we have to move on to something that is more suitable for the Mass. I had to sing this stuff when I was a kid. I loathed it then and I still abhor it now.

The Bishops had a wonderful opportunity to enforce Liturgicam Authenticam this past November, but, they were swayed by the National Pastoral Musicians Association and the Federation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions who opted to maintain the status quo.

 

[agapewolf]

Agape, you have missed the point. When these contemporary praise and worship songs mostly talk about what the person is doing and repeat it several times, it becomes clear that the person is the actor and not God. The Magnificat is not like that at all. Mary says “My soul magnifies the Lord. and my soul rejoices in God my saviour…” she qualifies that because the Almighty has done great things for her and holy is His Name. She is indicating that God is the actor and she is grateful for what He has done for her. When she says that all generations will call her blessed, it’s a prediction that has since come true many, many times over, and continues today. But, she points it back to God.

Contemporary Praise and Worship music does not do that. It’s all about how wonderful we are and how much we love God. It does not take into account that we are sinners. If we keep saying how wonderful we are and how great it is to be in a community and forget our sinful condition, then, there is something wrong. Sure, hymns like God, We Praise You (paraphrase of the Te Deum), All Creatures of Our God and King, and Alleluia, Sing to Jesus, interject solemnity and joy; however, hymns like Attende Domine, Parce Domine, and Our Father, We Have Wandered also remind us that we are sinners who trust in the mercy of God.

I would challenge you to maybe, this Lent, insert some real meat and potatoes music into your repertoire like Our Father, We Have Wandered or O Sun of Justice, sans electric guitars, drums and keyboards. You’ll find that the youngsters will begin to turn inwardly and really reflect on things and would be better served than what OCP has to offer.

No I have not missed the point. You have. You were trashing the singing of “i can sing of your love forever” That is a psalm. It is that simple.

Many of these praise and worship songs are modeled after the psalms. Some of them verbatim.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

benedictgal

While you may never have heard of a bishop reject Gregorian Chant, there are very rare and few cases where an Ordinary or a Metropolitan is actively seeking to have that in his territory.

But thats a far cry from the accusation, that they reject Gregorian Chant. Whether they are seeking to have Gregorian Chant in their dioceses or not, you can’t show one way or another. Fact is, most dioceses have Gregorian Chant, some where. Also, the Bishops rely on the faithful, who are the one’s doing the composing, and running the music ministries in the parishes in their dioceses, to chose the hymns they are capable of playing and the one’s they enjoy, provided they are liturgically sound. In my dioceses, we are not allowed to use anything that is not in the diocesan approved hymnal, which of course is published by OCP.
Our dioceses had a copyright issue years ago, when parishioners photo copied hymns and handed them out to the congregation. The dioceses was sued and since, prohibits anything they have not approved.

The only reason why we are still stuck with the St. Louis Jesuits is because of the OCP marketing machine and its insertion of these songs into their hymnals. I personally think that their “usefulness” is past and we have to move on to something that is more suitable for the Mass. I had to sing this stuff when I was a kid. I loathed it then and I still abhor it now.

Well, OCP is a non-profit organization, and they do have liturgical experts as consultants on their staff. So, I’m not sure your statements are all that accurate. Also, whether their usefulness is past or not, is yet to be seen. So far, it has not.

The Bishops had a wonderful opportunity to enforce Liturgicam Authenticam this past November, but, they were swayed by the National Pastoral Musicians Association and the Federation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions who opted to maintain the status quo.

This is of course your own well known biased opinion, and obviously not shared by the USCCB.

Jim

 

[Lepanto]

Fact is, most dioceses have Gregorian Chant, some where.

I have lived in different parts of the country and have attended Mass all over the US in numerous parishes during my decades of business travel. I think I’ve been exposed to far more variety of liturgies than most people.

Despite this, I have never heard Chant at a Mass. Not once.

The first time I can remember hearing Chant (besides from a movie) was the popular bestselling Chant CD that came out in the mid-1990s. If it weren’t for recordings and retreats at a monastery, I would never have heard Chant in my entire life.

On the other hand, I can pretty much guarantee that I’m going to be subjected to some silly ditty written by Steve Angrisano next Sunday.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

I never heard a Bishop discourage Gregorian chant, not have I ever head them, insist on praise and worship music. Most, were open to what the faithful, would compose.

then you obviously do not know Cardinal Mahony.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

The Church gave us Jubilate Deo, the simple chant Mass that is accessible to any parish. The singing spoken of in the CSL is the Ordinary of the Mass, the most important singing involved in the Liturgy. This is made clear by Musicam Sacram which was promulgated after the CSL.

Right. By Paul VI way after Vatican II. And of course the so called “liturgical experts” have either never heard of it or refuse to use it because it is considered “backward” and “not forward” thinking like glory and praise.

 

[Eric_Olsen]

As I already pointed out from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

The Church is the body of Christ, which is composed of its members.

Without its members, there is no Church.

Jim

no you said “we” meaning everybody else but Christ is the church.
Without Christ, we have no church.

 

[benedictgal]

But thats a far cry from the accusation, that they reject Gregorian Chant. Whether they are seeking to have Gregorian Chant in their dioceses or not, you can’t show one way or another. Fact is, most dioceses have Gregorian Chant, some where. Also, the Bishops rely on the faithful, who are the one’s doing the composing, and running the music ministries in the parishes in their dioceses, to chose the hymns they are capable of playing and the one’s they enjoy, provided they are liturgically sound. In my dioceses, we are not allowed to use anything that is not in the diocesan approved hymnal, which of course is published by OCP.

Well, OCP is a non-profit organization, and they do have liturgical experts as consultants on their staff. So, I’m not sure your statements are all that accurate. Also, whether their usefulness is past or not, is yet to be seen. So far, it has not.

This is of course your own well known biased opinion, and obviously not shared by the USCCB.

Jim

Jim, I don’t know what your background is, but, I attended the FDLC conference in San Antonio and let me tell you, it made me shudder on many different levels. The people were nice; however, there were some regions that left me wondering if we all belonged to the same Church. It was not a good vibe, especially after I toured the vendor exhibits.

Now, OCP may have so-called liturgical experts, but, I suspsect that their area of expertise is more along the lines of the alleged “spirit” of the Second Vatican Council as opposed to what the Council actually said and wrote. That’s a huge difference.

Furthermore, as far as I can tell, there seems to be no ecclesiastical oversight of OCP. Therefore, this may give them free reign to do with as they please. Meanwhile, the faithful in the pews suffer because they are under the mistaken notion that if it’s in the hymnal, then it’s okay to use. That is not necessarily the case, especially in the Spanish hymnals where OCP has some songs with very questionable doctrine. One priest refused to have our cantor sing “Hombres (now Pueblos) Nuevos” because it reeked of liberation theology, a heresy condemned by John Paul II and heavily attacked by the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger. You tell me where the oversight is to allow that kind of a song to be inserted into a supposedly Catholic hymnal.

Furthermore, many of the composers also take excessive liberties with the service music, paraphrasing the approved texts of the Roman Missal. Christopher Walker and Bob Hurd are two very notable examples. The excessively used nappy, happy and hand-clapping Gloria that Walker composed had to be moved to the hymn section because it was not even remotely in tandem with the correct Gloria. Bob Hurd’s Missa del Immigrante setting for the Agnus Dei is also very problematic because it strings everything together. The Sanctus and the Memorial Acclamation aren’t as bad for that setting, but, he’s done worse.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

no you said “we” meaning everybody else but Christ is the church.
Without Christ, we have no church.

We are the body of Christ, the Church.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

no you said “we” meaning everybody else but Christ is the church.
Without Christ, we have no church.

I’ll post it one more time for you.

II. THE CHURCH - BODY OF CHRIST

The Church is communion with Jesus

787 From the beginning, Jesus associated his disciples with his own life, revealed the mystery of the Kingdom to them, and gave them a share in his mission, joy, and sufferings.215 Jesus spoke of a still more intimate communion between him and those who would follow him: "Abide in me, and I in you. . . . I am the vine, you are the branches."216 And he proclaimed a mysterious and real communion between his own body and ours: "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."217

788 When his visible presence was taken from them, Jesus did not leave his disciples orphans. He promised to remain with them until the end of time; he sent them his Spirit.218 As a result communion with Jesus has become, in a way, more intense: "By communicating his Spirit, Christ mystically constitutes as his body those brothers of his who are called together from every nation."219

789 The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. **Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ. **

We are the Church because of our union with Christ.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

benedictgal

Furthermore, as far as I can tell, there seems to be no ecclesiastical oversight of OCP.

The ecclesiastical oversight is the Liturgical Commitee of the USCCB. If they reject the usuage of OCP publications, which of course they have not, then we will no longer be allowed to use the hymns that upset you so much. Until that happens, you’re merely sharing your opinion and it really means nothing, as far as the rest of the Church goes.

Its really a waste of energy arguing over this issue, time after time in this forum.

Jim

 

[Eric_Olsen]

I’ll post it one more time for you.

We are the Church because of our union with Christ.

Jim

So what does that mean in regards to praise and glory music?

 

[teme]

Wow - interesting and long “lunch reading” in this thread.

While the content of P+W music in many cases is biblical, and true in line with Catholic and Christian teaching, the question is whether it is an acceptable form of worship during the Mass.

Many of you have made a great point that this type of music is interesting, engages the youth, and is more likely to get people to sing. Totally true, this is a great way to worship the Lord, and engage more people to join us.

Many have also made the point that P+W music does not hold the reverance as more traditional types of music. I agree that P+W should fill our ears, hearts and mind, but not in the Mass. P+W is a great development in musical tradition, but is intended for a different purpose than more traditional sacred music. Sacred music is intended to bring greater glory to God during the Mass, lifting our hearts and souls to the mystery of Christ’s love for the Church. P+W music is intended to inspire us to live His message in our daily lives. Both valid for their purpose, but one cannot take the place of the other in their proper order.

In the same way we are called to live in Christ every moment of our lives, this takes different forms depending on the situation. For instance, we are to be welcoming of strangers, but should not spend all of Mass walking around meeting everyone. Alternatively, we are to confess our sins to a priest, yet not grab him in the grocery store and let it rip.

There has also been discussion about what “active participation” truly means. This says it from both a historical, linguistic, and ecclessiastical perspective better than I could, from Fr. Fessio
In summary, looking at the phrase in historical context, rather than what we wish to infuse in it now, it seems clear that the intent at the time was not to do anything necessary to get more people in the pews singing, but rather to elevate the participation in the historical and sacred musical tradition.

Many object to the use of P+W in the Mass because of its Protestant and secular origin and implication. I agree that it has no place within the Mass itself. But, we DEFINITELY should use it more as a Church. If we’re taking the music from our Protestant brothers and sisters, we should take with it weekly youth prayer and worship services, and infuse them with the P+W music.

 

[benedictgal]

benedictgal
The ecclesiastical oversight is the Liturgical Commitee of the USCCB. If they reject the usuage of OCP publications, which of course they have not, then we will no longer be allowed to use the hymns that upset you so much. Until that happens, you’re merely sharing your opinion and it really means nothing, as far as the rest of the Church goes.

Its really a waste of energy arguing over this issue, time after time in this forum.

Jim

Jim, there are some holes in your theory. First of all, there’s got to be some sort of “quality control”, for lack of a better term, before the OCP hymnals are released to the general public. There has to be an internal mechanism that will check to see that everything falls under the guidelines of the Church.

Furthermore, there is not a real competent authority to oversee what goes into the hymnals, whether they are published by OCP or GIA or whoever. The Bishops’ Committee on Divine Worship really doesn’t do much. The one with the real teeth to it is the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

You needn’t be insulting or demeaning regarding opinions.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

So what does that mean in regards to praise and glory music?

“We” the Church, give praise and glory to God.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

FYI, there are two aspects of what active participation, in the Liturgy are.

One, is interior, as we pray along with the priest and read the words of the consecration.

The other, is active participation with our fellow Christians, in hymns of praise and thanks giving.

Jim

 

[benedictgal]

FYI, there are two aspects of what active participation, in the Liturgy are.

One, is interior, as we pray along with the priest and read the words of the consecration.

The other, is active participation with our fellow Christians, in hymns of praise and thanks giving.

Jim

Actually, it is not even necessary to silently read the words of consecration along with the priest. We need to focus our attention and our hearts on the mystery that is unfolding before us.

Singing is not necessarily a requirement, as Phemie and others have mentioned in this thread. The important thing is to pray the Mass.