"Praise and Worship" music: is it acceptable as liturgical music for Mass?

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

In essence, it was called for. Vatican II called for full participation of the people in the liturgy and the music should be such, that it lifts the soul. (paraphrasing here)

P&W music doesn’t lift my soul…it drags it down into the pits of nausea. And nothing about full participation dictates pop music!

The Vatican has called for time and time again - Vatican II included - that Gregorian Chant be given pride of place, and yet it is almost completely ignored.

 

[Barbieflausa]

I am NOT Catholic so I can not share from there…but in my particular GOARCH Church the Divine Liturgy has been the same for many generations…and only recently allowed organ music.

However, we have a 4F Night(First Friday Familly Fellowship) once a month in our Fellowship Hall…and my priest (who plays a mean guitar) and the rest of us…sing the songs, bang the tamborines and “thank God” with our voices of Praise & Thanksgiving. " There by allowing our young folks who go to school with other Catholics & Christian Fellowships…“rock the house.” Eventually we’d like to have Friday Night Fellowship every week…but Greeks are not moved or take change well kind of like the trees from Lord Of The Rings… But little steps add up to bigger steps…Might I add we have also intriduced the concept of “pot covered suppers” (since we dont believe in luck). In a Greek community a Pot Roast is considered “unusual” and often in-hailed…but the baklava is “old news”

BTW when I was serving as a Church School teacher at my old Presbyterian church…we had the same comments about the “secular” forgetting many of the Hymns of The Reformed Faith were once pub songs, and written by composers who were the Fab Four of their day…They have Wed Night Live once a week with diner, music and weekly Bible studies…

So in either wing of the church “The Liturgy” remains the same…set out by tradition and council…but what you all do when you leave the sanctuary and go into your fellowship hall is up to your parish council…

 

[OnlyAmbrose]

We have used some of Angrisanos music and use alot of spirit and song ( oregon catholic press) music in our later Mass.

Those who criticize this or any other valid expression of praise and worship forget that the pipe organ was not accepted in churches initially due to the close resembance to the calliope used during the Roman Circuses.

Classical music was considered scandalous. It is culture oriented. If God is praised through this expression of music then AMEN.

God in the OT was praised with Dancing by David. With the trumpet and the tamborine. Not just a bunch of solemn faces.
I LOVE JESUS and I want him to know and I am going to sing Him a HAPPY CLAPPY song.
pax Christi

Crystal

Great post here

 

[Lepanto]

We have used some of Angrisanos music and use alot of spirit and song ( oregon catholic press) music in our later Mass.

Is Gregorian chant given “pride of place” in your parish’s liturgical services?

Per Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilum article 116 says:

---

1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.​

Likewise,is the pipe organ “held in high esteem” in your parish’s liturgical services?

Per Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilum article 120 says:

---

1. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.

But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.​

Here’s the entire Vatican II document:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

“Praise and Worship” music is not promoted anywhere within it, and it would be hard to argue that P&W is a legitimate, organic development in Catholic music since its sources are Protestant.

So is your parish’s music REALLY in the “spirit” of Vatican II or is it actually in the spirit of Oregon Catholic Press?

 

[Hrvoje]

God in the OT was praised with Dancing by David. With the trumpet and the tamborine. Not just a bunch of solemn faces

Please show some evidence that this was performed within the Temple and worship of David’s time…

james

The Psalms.

Psalm 81 was used in Jewish liturgy.
Psalms 95 and 96 were sung in the Temple.

I’ll quote them below.

 

[Hrvoje]

Psalm 81

1
For the leader; “upon the gittith.” Of Asaph.
2
Sing joyfully to God our strength; shout in triumph to the God of Jacob!
3
Take up a melody, sound the timbrel, the sweet-sounding harp and lyre.
4
3 Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the full moon, on our solemn feast.
5
For this is a law in Israel, an edict of the God of Jacob,
6
4 Who made it a decree for Joseph when he came out of the land of Egypt. II I hear a new oracle:
7
5 “I relieved their shoulders of the burden; their hands put down the basket.
8
6 In distress you called and I rescued you; unseen, I spoke to you in thunder; At the waters of Meribah I tested you and said: Selah
9
‘Listen, my people, I give you warning! If only you will obey me, Israel!
10
7 There must be no foreign god among you; you must not worship an alien god.
11
I, the LORD, am your God, who brought you up from the land of Egypt. Open wide your mouth that I may fill it.’
12
But my people did not listen to my words; Israel did not obey me.
13
So I gave them over to hardness of heart; they followed their own designs.
14
But even now if my people would listen, if Israel would walk in my paths,
15
In a moment I would subdue their foes, against their enemies unleash my hand.
16
Those who hate the LORD would tremble, their doom sealed forever.
17
But Israel I would feed with the finest wheat, satisfy them with honey from the rock.”

 

[Hrvoje]

Psalm 95

1
Come, let us sing joyfully to the LORD; cry out to the rock of our salvation.
2
Let us greet him with a song of praise, joyfully sing out our psalms.
3
For the LORD is the great God, the great king over all gods,
4
Whose hand holds the depths of the earth; who owns the tops of the mountains.
5
The sea and dry land belong to God, who made them, formed them by hand.
6
Enter, let us bow down in worship; let us kneel before the LORD who made us.
7
For this is our God, whose people we are, God’s well-tended flock. Oh, that today you would hear his voice:
8
2 Do not harden your hearts as at Meribah, as on the day of Massah in the desert.
9
There your ancestors tested me; they tried me though they had seen my works.
10
Forty years I loathed that generation; I said: “This people’s heart goes astray; they do not know my ways.”
11
3 Therefore I swore in my anger: “They shall never enter my rest.”

 

[Hrvoje]

Psalm 96

1
Sing to the LORD a new song; sing to the LORD, all the earth.
2
Sing to the LORD, bless his name; announce his salvation day after day.
3
Tell God’s glory among the nations; among all peoples, God’s marvelous deeds.
4
2 For great is the LORD and highly to be praised, to be feared above all gods.
5
For the gods of the nations all do nothing, but the LORD made the heavens.
6
Splendor and power go before him; power and grandeur are in his holy place.
7
Give to the LORD, you families of nations, give to the LORD glory and might;
8
give to the LORD the glory due his name! Bring gifts and enter his courts;
9
bow down to the LORD, splendid in holiness. Tremble before God, all the earth;
10
say among the nations: The LORD is king. The world will surely stand fast, never to be moved. God rules the peoples with fairness.
11
Let the heavens be glad and the earth rejoice; let the sea and what fills it resound;
12
let the plains be joyful and all that is in them. Then let all the trees of the forest rejoice
13
before the LORD who comes, who comes to govern the earth, To govern the world with justice and the peoples with faithfulness.

 

[Hrvoje]

Is Gregorian chant given “pride of place” in your parish’s liturgical services?

Per Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilum article 116 says:

---

1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.​

Likewise,is the pipe organ “held in high esteem” in your parish’s liturgical services?

Per Vatican II, Sacrosanctum Concilum article 120 says:

---

1. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church’s ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man’s mind to God and to higher things.

But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.​

Here’s the entire Vatican II document:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

“Praise and Worship” music is not promoted anywhere within it, and it would be hard to argue that P&W is a legitimate, organic development in Catholic music since its sources are Protestant.

So is your parish’s music REALLY in the “spirit” of Vatican II or is it actually in the spirit of Oregon Catholic Press?

Yes, on GC… Well… We don’t have GC, but that’s because we don’t have people trained in GC to sing it. We do have an adult choir, however, who sing quite well and are chant-like… And yes on pipe organs.

But yes as well on “praise and worship”.

But too tired to comment now.
Tomorrow.
If I have time.

In Christ.

 

[Crystal_H]

]Is

Gregorian chant given “pride of place” in your parish’s liturgical services?

Actually, it is …when we have someone to sing it.

Not all of the music that is praise and worship is appropriate for Mass. and I hope those preparing for the Mass choose appropriately.

PULEEZE… not all gregorian chant i s that great either.-----------------------------------------------------

1. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

This is a KEY PHRASE. People over a certain age do not equal those who are much younger.

But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

---

ART is SUBJECTIVE. and as long as the more modern music is in accord with the SPIRIT of the liturgical action. then HAPPY CLAPPY it is.

Likewise,is the pipe organ “held in high esteem” in your parish’s liturgical services

? We don’t have a pipe organ as we are a newer parish. We couldn’t afford one.

"

Praise and Worship" music is not promoted anywhere within it, and it would be hard to argue that P&W is a legitimate, organic development in Catholic music since its sources are Protestant

.

Actually it is… legitimate
So is your parish’s music REALLY in the “spirit” of Vatican II or is it actually in the spirit of Oregon Catholic Press?

Please come to my Mass 10:30 Sacred Heart in Tillamook
I would love to share my pew with you.
The Mass is about worshiping GOD. Our Lord is the Center of our Mass and is worshipped and adored in my parish as I am sure in yours. We may have difference in opinion about art but I STILL LOVE YOU!

Crystal ( who will not post any more for this thread due to the dead rotten smell coming from the horse) I’ll keep reading though.

 

[Canto]

At my parish west of Sydney here in Australia we have strumming guitars and joyous rousing songs which lots of people love, lots of people don’t.

All art is subjective. Think of the record label that turned down the Beatles.

It the Vatican had the chant online for free with melody line in contemporary notation and not square note, if there were mp3s both sung and spoken so we know how it’s supposed to go and be pronounced then I think more would include chant at their parish.

With chant, everyone sings the same line, and you can be a terrible singer like me and still sound half decent as the more ‘plainchant’ style songs (not the complex stuff) is rather simple. We just need to know how to say the Latin properly. Also with chant it’s beautiful with organ and even guitar but traditionally is sung A Capella

Personally I like pop and folk stuff, but not at Mass. Maybe a song while everyone walks to Communion but that’s about it.

The Our Father we chant in English and it is superb!

Salve Regina Celitum (Hail holy queen - sister act film)
Ave Maria
Panis Angelicus (the chant not the famous Frank setting)
Adoramus Te
Adoro Te Devote (Godhead here in hiding)
Anima Christi (Soul of my saviour)
Holy God we praise thy name (condensed English Te Deum)
O God of loveliness (St Alphonsus Liquori)

These are just a few beautiful chants I love to hum around the house and would be great for Mass.

Beth Nielsen Chapman (a Nashville songwriter and pop/folk singer) has an album of chant simply called “hymns.” It never leaves my CD player – Perfect and charted on the top 30 of billboards Christian chart!

 

[VociMike]

All art is subjective.

Benedict XVI:

Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another.

John Paul II:

With regard to liturgical music compositions, I make my own the “general law” that Saint Pius X formulated in these terms: “A composition for Church is sacred and liturgical insofar as it approaches Gregorian melody in flow, in inspiration, and in flavor, and so much less is it worthy of the temple insomuch as it is recognized as departing from that supreme model”. Evidently, this does not mean copying Gregorian chant, but rather seeing to it that new compositions be pervaded by the same spirit that gave rise to and so molded that chant. Only an artist profoundly immersed in the sensus Ecclesiae may try to perceive and translate into melody the truth of the Mystery that is celebrated in the Liturgy.

Clearly there is a strong, even obstinate refusal to listen to what the Church teaches in this matter.

(I’m sure some will jump on the part about not copying Gregorian chant - as if anybody was calling for that - and totally ignore the part about being profoundly immersed in the sensus Ecclesiae. Tell me again how many non-Catholic P&W composers are profoundly immersed in the sensus Ecclesiae?)

 

[JimR-OCDS]

JMJ_coder

P&W music doesn’t lift my soul…it drags it down into the pits of nausea. And nothing about full participation dictates pop music!

Then the problem is yours, not the music. Also, P&W isn’t pop music. Its what it music that praises and worships God. How can this do anything other, than make you happy?

The Vatican has called for time and time again - Vatican II included - that Gregorian Chant be given pride of place, and yet it is almost completely ignored.

Vatican II said Gregorian Chant is suited for the liturgy, In other words, using Gregorian Chant, you won’t go wrong. It however, did not exclude other styles of liturgical music, and over the years, the Church has used other styles and embraced them.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

He is a priest who is actually citing Vatican II and extra-conciliar documents. They are not his opinions.

He citing parts of Vatican II, which fit his position, and leaving out others. Also, not all priest or even Bishops, agree with him. Otherwise, we would see nothing other, than Gregorian Chant at Masses, in the United States. Such is not the case, because the Bishops, although see the beauty in Gregorian Chant, also see the beauty in other styles of music.

Jim

 

[DaveBj]

I am not qualified to say what is acceptable as liturgical music and what is not. It is obvious from the current situation as pertains to liturgical music in the U.S. that among those who are qualified, there is no agreement.

I can tell you what I like: chant and polyphony. However, most parishes do not have the trained musicians to bring off chant and polyphony. That being the case, I like the old hymns, provided 1) the lyrics do not contradict Catholic doctrine, or 2) the lyrics have not been bowdlerized into modern meaninglessness.

With regard to VociMike’s comment:

On the scale of what the Church considers worthy liturgical music P&W is near the bottom. The Church calls for liturgical music that is holy, universal and true art. P&W certainly doesn’t do well in the categories of holiness (being set aside for God) or true art.

The reason P&W is not holy (set aside for God) is that it relies on explicitly secular instrumentation, composition and performance styles. While the lyrics are sacred (set aside for God) everything else about the genre is strongly secular a.k.a. profane. And there’s no point in arguing this fact, since it is exactly this strong secular “feel” that is the reason given for using it for youth Masses. People want P&W precisely because it sounds like the secular pop culture, which is exactly not the sound the Church calls for in her liturgical music. Try as they might, proponents can’t have it both ways. They can’t argue that they want it for youth Masses because it doesn’t sound like secular pop music.

I would submit that the use of secular instrumentation, composition style, and performance style in worship of God has the effect of sanctifying that instrumentation, composition style, and performance style. If God can sanctify a crude, rude fisherman, and make him the Rock on which He would build His Church, then I don’t think it is too hard for him to sanctify an electric guitar, a drum kit, and an anapestic beat.

I’ve told you what my preference is for Mass. But I really wish that there were a place in the Catholic community for a non-liturgical worship gathering in which P&W and Southern Gospel (my native musical milieu) could be played, sung, and enjoyed. There is a lot in that music that is worth preserving and experiencing.

DaveBj

 

[VociMike]

I am not qualified to say what is acceptable as liturgical music and what is not. It is obvious from the current situation as pertains to liturgical music in the U.S. that among those who are qualified, there is no agreement.

I can tell you what I like: chant and polyphony. However, most parishes do not have the trained musicians to bring off chant and polyphony.

Congregational chant is not hard at all. Any parish that can sing hymns can chant their parts of the Mass. Chanting the Propers or doing polyphony takes a fair amount more talent and/or commitment

I would submit that the use of secular instrumentation, composition style, and performance style in worship of God has the effect of sanctifying that instrumentation, composition style, and performance style. If God can sanctify a crude, rude fisherman, and make him the Rock on which He would build His Church, then I don’t think it is too hard for him to sanctify an electric guitar, a drum kit, and an anapestic beat.

If anything can be sanctified in the liturgy, then the Church would have no need to talk about those things which can be sanctified. But more to the point, it is obvious that it is exactly the secular nature, the secular associations of contemporary praise music that is held up as its most beneficial characteristic. As I said, one cannot have it both ways. One cannot say that the music is used to bring people into Mass, and at the same time deny that the music is essentially secular in composition, performance and instrumentation.

I’ve told you what my preference is for Mass. But I really wish that there were a place in the Catholic community for a non-liturgical worship gathering in which P&W and Southern Gospel (my native musical milieu) could be played, sung, and enjoyed. There is a lot in that music that is worth preserving and experiencing.

I am totally in agreement with you here. Every parish should offer this if there is a desire.

 

[Lepanto]

Vatican II said Gregorian Chant is suited for the liturgy, In other words, using Gregorian Chant, you won’t go wrong.

Then why is chant virtually extinct within the context of the Mass?

It however, did not exclude other styles of liturgical music, and over the years, the Church has used other styles and embraced them.

What Church document shows that the Church embraced P&W? I’ll tell you which: none.

The reality is that certain people (e.g., musicians, liturgists, and publishing companies) embraced it and shove them down our throats. These people have hijacked our musical patrimony.

 

[Lepanto]

He citing parts of Vatican II, which fit his position, and leaving out others.

What parts did he leave out?

Also, not all priest or even Bishops, agree with him. Otherwise, we would see nothing other, than Gregorian Chant at Masses, in the United States.

They are not disagreeing with the priest whom I cited, they are disagreeing with Vatican II. Sadly, disobedient and spineless bishops and priests are nothing new.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Then the problem is yours, not the music. Also, P&W isn’t pop music. Its what it music that praises and worships God. How can this do anything other, than make you happy?

I can put religious lyrics to death metal - that doesn’t mean it should be allowed within the Holy Mass!

Vatican II said Gregorian Chant is suited for the liturgy, In other words, using Gregorian Chant, you won’t go wrong.

It said that it is specially suited and should be given pride of place. The way most parish’s operate now, they at best give lip service to this idea.

It however, did not exclude other styles of liturgical music, and over the years, the Church has used other styles and embraced them.

No, but other than Polyphony, no other style is mentioned. So you cannot say that Vatican II explicitly o.k.'d P&W music. It also says that all music used for Mass must be within the spirit of the liturgical action - that is a solemn spirit. The spirit of the Liturgy is not a rock concert!!!

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

The reality is that certain people (e.g., musicians, liturgists, and publishing companies) embraced it and shove them down our throats. These people have hijacked our musical patrimony.

The problem is that the publishing companies have modeled themselves after the typical U.S. business model. That may be good for a Fortune 500 company, but not for what they want to do. The result is that to increase profits, they must constantly make it required for their customers to continue purchasing from them. New songs, new editions, new whatever - every couple of months.

They must model themselves on the model of an apostolate. You cannot go into the “market” of liturgical resources and expect to get rich. You must go in knowing that you will not have the “creature comforts” of modern society. That you will have little in the way of value as the world views it. You are there to serve the Church and not the other way around.