"Praise and Worship" music: is it acceptable as liturgical music for Mass?

[Lepanto]

It always amazes me how deeply Protestantism has contaminated Catholicism, especially in America. It is so pervasive that many otherwise good Catholics can’t even detect it. This issue regarding music is an example. What we have here is Protestant music infiltrating the Catholic Mass, and with Catholic musicians letting it in while most in the pew just go along with it cluelessly.

Yet as crucial as music is to liturgy, it is not a dogmatic matter. What scares me even more is when American Catholics start adopting Protestant soteriological or christological beliefs…again, often without even realizing it.

 

[VociMike]

For starters, the stuff that people here sarcastically link to be the same as praise and worship, which is absolutely the opposite.

Iron maiden , megadeth for starters. Secular music. rap, and so on. These songs are not in any way in the same genre as praise and worship

No, the pope is not talking about secular music. He’s talking about music that people are using in the liturgy. He would not waste his time or ours talking about a problem that doesn’t exist.

So, what music being used in the liturgy is “not as good”? Surely there must be something. Surely not every style of liturgical music is exactly as good for liturgy as every other style. Or is it?

Or, if you won’t address that question, let me simply ask, what, in your opinion, are the worst forms of liturgical music commonly found in Catholic liturgies?

 

[benedictgal]

That is exactly my point…he Does NOT say it is praise and worship, and I disagree that that is what he is talking about.

I am not talking about spirit and song songs. I’m talking about praise and worship music used at many youth masses. A few might be from that hymnal yes, but most (at least in the good youth masses) are not. It doesn’t matter that they are sold in time/life or not. It doesn’t matter that they are heard in other communities. That doesn’t make the songs protestant". The lyrics determine that, and most do not conflict with catholic doctrine.

I’ve read the stuff you keep suggesting, and posting …over and over…it has not proven your point. No need to post it again.

Agapewolf, he doesn’t have to say it outright because remember, praise and worship is mostly an American protestant term that is not universal. Therefore, a classically trained musician who is also a renowned German theologian and now Supreme Pontiff would not know what the name of this kind of music is. But, he knows that it sounds like rock and roll, which doesn’t necessarily mean the Rolling Stones or the Doors. He may not call it directly by name, but, his description of it is pretty accurate.

Furthermore, I have seen a copy of last year’s LifeTeen worship guide and many, many of the songs do come from Spirit and Song. Furthermore, OCP is the chief purveyor of the hymns in the praise and worship genre (which mostly come from the Protestants).

The problem is that when people have blinders regarding a certain genre that they love, they may not be able to see that inasmuch as they favor this style, it is not necessarily what the Church had in mind.

Pope John Paul II, in his Chirograph, speaks very clearly on the matter, especially in the area of experiemtation in the liturgy, which is pretty much what this praise and worship music is.

In other words, the sacred context of the celebration must never become a laboratory for experimentation or permit forms of composition and performance to be introduced without careful review.

Unfortunately, OCP does not seem to have any sort of review mechanism. This was especially proven when they had to remove the Gloria written by Christopher Walker from its service music section because it was a severe paraphrase of the actual Gloria that didn’t even resemble the approved text.

 

[agapewolf]

No, the pope is not talking about secular music. He’s talking about music that people are using in the liturgy. He would not waste his time or ours talking about a problem that doesn’t exist.

So, what music being used in the liturgy is “not as good”? Surely there must be something. Surely not every style of liturgical music is exactly as good for liturgy as every other style. Or is it?

Or, if you won’t address that question, let me simply ask, what, in your opinion, are the worst forms of liturgical music commonly found in Catholic liturgies?

He was also including secular music. I have unfortunately heard secular music played in church,. It shouldn’t be…

and I just explained what “isn’t as good”…it wasn’t an exhaustive list, but its a start. I answered your question.

 

[Sarabande]

I’ve been standing on the side-lines reading along and this has been an interesting read. I know this is most likely not the Praise and Worship music being discussed, but I was just looking at music cds on line and found this website for Russian Orthodox music and I had to share. It struck me as funny that I would see the cd while reading this thread. The cd is called:

"Selected sacred chants of Russian Orthodox church.
Praise and Worship music by Monk Choir of Kiev Pechersk "

origenmusic.com/monkschoir.html

I guess the term “Praise and Worship” means different things depending on culture and faith?

God bless.

 

[agapewolf]

That’s kind of what Imean here…

the term “rock music” describes SOOOOO many genres that does not cross over to what other cultures call it.

I’ve had discussions with folks from other countries that have incorrectly labeled different genres of music…or I should say labeled them dfifferently than USA> And even americans have different semantic definitions of genres of music.

 

[benedictgal]

He was also including secular music. I have unfortunately heard secular music played in church,. It shouldn’t be…

and I just explained what “isn’t as good”…it wasn’t an exhaustive list, but its a start. I answered your question.

This is what the Holy Father writes in Spirit of the Liturgy:

Three developments in recent music epitomize the problems that the Church has to face when she is considering liturgical music.

First of all, there is the cultural universalization that the Church has to undertake if she wants to get beyond the boundaries of the European mind. This is the question of what inculturation should look like in the realm of sacred music if, on the one hand, the identity of Christianity is to be preserved and, on the other, its universality is to be expressed in local forms.

Then there are two developments in music itself that have their origins primarily in the West but that for a long time have affected the whole of mankind in the world culture that is being formed. Modern so-called “classical” music has maneuvered itself, with some exceptions, into an elitist ghetto, which only specialists may enter – and even they do so with what may sometimes be mixed feelings. The music of the masses has broken loose from this and treads a very different path.

On the one hand, there is pop music, which is certainly no longer supported by the people in the ancient sense (populus). It is aimed at the phenomenon of the masses, is industrially produced, and ultimately has to be described as a cult of the banal. “Rock”, on the other hand, is the expression of elemental passions, and at rock festivals it assumes a cultic character, a form of worship, in fact, in opposition to Christian worship. People are, so to speak, released from themselves by the emotional shock of rhythm, noise, and special lighting effects. However, in the ecstasy of having all their defenses torn down, the participants sink, as it were, beneath the elemental force of the universe. The music of the Holy Spirit’s sober inebriation seems to have little chance when self has become a prison, the mind is a shackle, and breaking out from both appears as a true promise of redemption that can be tasted at least for a few moments.

So, in this context, he is discussing the problems with liturgical music in this day and age. Many of the praise and worship songs are played by a teen band that has drums, electric guitars, keyboards and the like. This certainly is not conducive to the “muisc of the Holy Spirit’s sober inebriation.” Many of the songs also are “pop” in nature and is “industrially produced”. Almost an a yearly basis, OCP pushes a new collection of hymns. Do we really need under 100 new songs a year for the Mass? I don’t think so. What we need is to tap into our Church’s over 2000 years of sacred music tradition.

 

[Lepanto]

agapewolf,

Your public profile says that your occupation is a musician and that your interests include LifeTeen.

Are you sure that you’re not promoting P&W out of personal preference instead of what the Church has repeatedly stated about liturgical music?

Your profile does not indicate if you are a parish musician. If you are, however, you are in a very responsible position because what you do will GREATLY affect the reverence of the Mass (not to mention its compliance with Magisterial documents). In that regard, your position is second only to that of the priest!

So, if you are a church musician, why not use your God-given talents to play the kind of music that the Church wants?

Outside of the liturgy, you are free to play P&W or any other kind of music you want.

 

[Lepanto]

I’ve been standing on the side-lines reading along and this has been an interesting read. I know this is most likely not the Praise and Worship music being discussed, but I was just looking at music cds on line and found this website for Russian Orthodox music and I had to share. It struck me as funny that I would see the cd while reading this thread. The cd is called:

"Selected sacred chants of Russian Orthodox church.
Praise and Worship music by Monk Choir of Kiev Pechersk "

origenmusic.com/monkschoir.html

I guess the term “Praise and Worship” means different things depending on culture and faith?

God bless.

Gregorian Chant, Palestrina, and traditional hymns are the official and original “praise and worship” within the Catholic tradition.

 

[Sarabande]

Yet as crucial as music is to liturgy, it is not a dogmatic matter. What scares me even more is when American Catholics start adopting Protestant soteriological or christological beliefs…again, often without even realizing it.

Wow… “soteriological” - I had to look that one up. Great word!!!

This is sad. You are right, I think people don’t realize it at first, but then you’ll hear them say things like, “He’s (the new pastor) going to make this place rock like the Baptists.” (Yes, a 60-something year old woman said this of the new pastor at the church I used to work for and expected me to agree since I was 25. She was referring to the change in the music liturgy and wanting everyone to talk and walk around during mass at the beginning and during the sign of peace) So, they do eventually become aware of it, but see nothing wrong with it. But I guess this is for another thread.

 

[Irish_Saints]

There are many threads on this very subject where it has been hashed to death. Expect more of the same with the usual “arguments.” It might save time to just look at one of the voluminous old threads.

It might. Then again, there are a lot of new users (myself included) who haven’t partaken in any of those “voluminous old threads” and may not have the technical know-how nor the real desire to search for then peruse said threads.

I certainly hope if someone approaches folks on these forums about what it means, for instance, for them to be Catholic (a topic that I’m reasonably certain has come up from time to time) there isn’t a knee-jerk rolling of the eyes and an exasperated “look it up, noobie!”

 

[Irish_Saints]

Having in the past been a semi-pro soundman on the road for what is widely today considered “praise and worship” music (this goes back to the early-mid 80’s for me), I have something of a visceral response against most of it. This not only extends to pop music in general, but to most of what comes under the umbrella of “contemporary christian music.”

Most of it, quite frankly, is fluff. A lot of volume, very little in the way of substance. And listening to it for any length of time tends to jangle and grate on my nerves. It also (for me anyway) is intimately tied with much of what I found distasteful as a Pentecostal/Charismatic Christian (which is the topic of another thread I’ve been working on.)

At my old parish, I was rather disturbed one night when I went into the sanctuary to find an amp stack and full drum rig set up on the dais within mere feet of the tabernacle and the altar! This was the weekly meeting of the “Pentecost Revival” Charismatic Catholic gathering. The “music” was vapid, ear-splitting, and the whole thing seemed inappropriate to me. I won’t even get into the so-called “holy laughter” crud that was going on (yet!) I mean, I was (and am) so fully convinced of Christ’s Real Presence in the Eucharist, that I wouldn’t so much as set foot on the dais for the longest time, and did so once only and at the priest’s behest! The whole cacophonous scene that night made me literally weep!

I will not presume to speak on the Lord’s behalf as to whether any of that was glorifying to him. But it was horrifying to me! And whatever benefit more modern music may have, I would say most of it does NOT belong as a backdrop for the sacred liturgy. If it came down to so-called praise and worship music, or none at all, during the Mass…I’d pick silence.

 

[VociMike]

He was also including secular music. I have unfortunately heard secular music played in church,. It shouldn’t be…

and I just explained what “isn’t as good”…it wasn’t an exhaustive list, but its a start. I answered your question.

Considering this thread is some 150 posts long, I don’t know where your answer might be found. Was it the post saying that Iron Maiden etc shouldn’t be included? Well, it never is, so that’s not a helpful response. Are you of the opinion that there is no music, with appropriate lyrics, being used in Catholic liturgy that perhaps does not belong there? Are you of the opinion that absolutely any music that has suitable words is OK?