"Pray my sisters and brothers..."

[TigerKitty]

Thank you for your quick reply. I feel bad that I haven’t been doing this, but will certainly from now on.

 

[TheMc]

Thank you for your quick reply. I feel bad that I haven’t been doing this, but will certainly from now on.

No problemo. Also, don’t feel bad about the past. You didn’t know. It seems reasonable enough to assume it is something concelebrants should be doing, not us.

 

[Jack_Bauer]

“May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands, for the praise and glory of God’s name…”

The congregation at the abbey attached to the parish we belong to always says it this way. But at the main church, everyone uses the “His” pronoun. I don’t get the “God’s” reference, because in my mind, “the Lord” is Jesus, and he was a male, so what’s the big deal in saying “His”?

Another question, at the elevation of the bread and the wine, when the priest typically bows/genuflects, the entire congregation bows as well. Not just the con-celebrating priests (and there are many, because it’s an abbey), but almost the entire congregation.

To clarify, there are no kneelers in this church, so everyone stands during the litury of the eucharist.

I haven’t bowed at the elevations because I thought that bowing/genuflecting was only for the concelebranting priests. But then aren’t we all called to actively participate in the holy sacrifice of the mass? I’m so confused! What is correct in this case?

Sounds like St. Ben’s

 

[PacoG]

I’m not sure if this is what the OP has in mind, but saying “sisters and brothers” really scrapes on my nerves. For hundreds of years if those words were said it was “brothers and sisters” for reasons of the language, just as it was “ladies and gentlemen” and “men and women” and “boys and girls”. The usage was to place the shorter sounding word first followed by the longer one. Now, however, the emphasis is on Political Correctness and trying to avoid “offending” the feminists. Yak! Using PC language offends me, a woman.

You are assuming too much. It may be a regional-cultural thing or a simple courtesy thing where you put the feminine before the masculine. There is no stylistic or grammatical rule that requires the longer sounding word first.

In Spanish, for example, the feminine always comes before the masculine as a sign of respect and courtesy. damas y caballeros…hermanas y hermanos…senoras y senores…ninas y ninos.

 

[Jack_Bauer]

You are assuming too much. It may be a regional-cultural thing or a simple courtesy thing where you put the feminine before the masculine. There is no stylistic or grammatical rule that requires the longer sounding word first.

In Spanish, for example, the feminine always comes before the masculine as a sign of respect and courtesy. damas y caballeros…hermanas y hermanos…senoras y senores…ninas y ninos.

For what its worth, the person you disputed was actually spot on. Further, as far as I’m concerned this thread is over. I’ve worked through it and learned something I didn’t know before. I’m here to learn and that is why I created this thread.

Thanks everyone for participating. But out of respect for the priest I’d like it to end. I wish I could lock it, but I don’t have that authority.

 

[JerrySeibert]

Thanks everyone for participating. But out of respect for the priest I’d like it to end. I wish I could lock it, but I don’t have that authority.
Jack, sorry for so much ...to do. Some questions are taken out of context and are interpreted to be an attack on the Church. I know your pain I have responded to such a thread. Please do not let some of the comments turn you away from this great resource. I have found so many people that make what I thought was a respectable knowledge base of Catholicism seem, like a child's. Go with it man. So many people here really do know there stuff.

 

[Jack_Bauer]

Thanks everyone for participating. But out of respect for the priest I’d like it to end. I wish I could lock it, but I don’t have that authority.

Jack, sorry for so much ...to do. Some questions are taken out of context and are interpreted to be an attack on the Church. I know your pain I have responded to such a thread. Please do not let some of the comments turn you away from this great resource. I have found so many people that make what I thought was a respectable knowledge base of Catholicism seem, like a child's. Go with it man. So many people here really do know there stuff.

Thanks. I will continue to return. There are things I can help people with too and for that I thank the Lord. However, as all us carry our burdens, mine happens to be those things that are specific to liturgical rubrics.

 

[hmbax]

I agree with you and your distaste for political correctness, especially in the Mass. I am a woman, and I have no problem with “brethren” or any other generalized term meant to include both sexes. What I do find interesting is to note that each time you are at Mass and the priest says “sisters and brothers” you are then distracted, albeit for just a short while (hopefully), from the Mass itself. Don’t let Satan put a wedge between you and our Lord by letting this rub you. I struggle with something similar in that the choir at our church leaves a lot to be desired for many reasons. I find myself stewing over their inability to sing the same words at the same time, or the voices that are nowhere near the right note, or the fact that they insist on crowding around the sanctuary instead of being up in the choir loft…the list goes on and on sometimes! What happens is that I get distracted from the Mass for a few moments while I grumble inside about it and then I realize I’ve allowed myself to be taken away from the Mass…AGAIN…! As much as things like this annoy, like a splinter you just can’t get out, try not to dwell on it; especially during Mass!

Now…I have a question that follows this part of the Mass that I can’t seem to find elsewhere on the site.

Are we supposed to stand up just before we say or as we begin saying “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands…” or are we supposed to wait until the words are said? We have a family at our church who are getting the name of “the early standers” because they stand up just before the words are spoken while the entire rest of the church waits until the final words are spoken. What is correct?

H

 

[Jack_Bauer]

Now…I have a question that follows this part of the Mass that I can’t seem to find elsewhere on the site.

Are we supposed to stand up just before we say or as we begin saying “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands…” or are we supposed to wait until the words are said? We have a family at our church who are getting the name of “the early standers” because they stand up just before the words are spoken while the entire rest of the church waits until the final words are spoken. What is correct?

H

Right after the washing of hands, then you stand. At least that a signal you should be standing waiting to say your part. Our bishop had a big hand in correcting the diocese on this part when he came to us in 2005.

 

[japhy]

Are we supposed to stand up just before we say or as we begin saying “May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands…” or are we supposed to wait until the words are said?

The GIRM says this:
146. Upon returning to the middle of the altar, the priest, facing the people and extending and then joining his hands, invites the people to pray, saying, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren). The people rise and make their response: Suscipiat Dominus (May the Lord accept). Then the priest, with hands extended, says the prayer over the offerings. At the end the people make the acclamation, Amen.
And the Roman Missal itself says:
29. Standing at the middle of the altar, facing the people, extending and then joining his hands, he says:
Pray, brethren (brothers and sisters),
that my sacrifice and yours
may be acceptable to God,
the almighty Father.
The people rise and reply:
May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands
for the praise and glory of his name,
for our good
and the good of all his holy Church.
So it seems like we are not to stand until after the priest has finished saying “Pray, brethren… the almighty Father.”

 

[TheMc]

The GIRM says this:
146. Upon returning to the middle of the altar, the priest, facing the people and extending and then joining his hands, invites the people to pray, saying, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren). The people rise and make their response: Suscipiat Dominus (May the Lord accept). Then the priest, with hands extended, says the prayer over the offerings. At the end the people make the acclamation, Amen.
And the Roman Missal itself says:
29. Standing at the middle of the altar, facing the people, extending and then joining his hands, he says:
Pray, brethren (brothers and sisters),
that my sacrifice and yours
may be acceptable to God,
the almighty Father.
The people rise and reply:
May the Lord accept the sacrifice at your hands
for the praise and glory of his name,
for our good
and the good of all his holy Church.
So it seems like we are not to stand until after the priest has finished saying “Pray, brethren… the almighty Father.”

I’m curious: do those rubrics change if incense is used?

 

[ProVobis]

You are assuming too much. It may be a regional-cultural thing or a simple courtesy thing where you put the feminine before the masculine. There is no stylistic or grammatical rule that requires the longer sounding word first.

In Spanish, for example, the feminine always comes before the masculine as a sign of respect and courtesy. damas y caballeros…hermanas y hermanos…senoras y senores…ninas y ninos.

The Polish avoids it (sort of) with no gender, but modestly, keeping the focus on God the Father Almighty:

(Módlcie się, aby moją i waszą ofiarę przyjął Bóg, Ojciec wszechmogący)

although I have heard bracia (brothers) added.

 

[GwenL]

The Missal says the priest can use words other than “brethren.” This is not one that I’d get all wound up about. I’m a woman and I think it’s patronizing when the priest says “sisters and brothers.” He’s being PC, and he thinks he’s being “inclusive” (gag). But still, he’s allowed to use different words, so he can use different words. Remember the era that many of these men were raised in, and how they were taught in seminary.

Our priest says “brethren.”

It’s so odd that feminists insist on taking out gender references to God, the Holy Spirit, the Lord, yet they never remove the gender references to the Blessed Virgin. I don’t think many feminists are very comfortable with the Blessed Mother, eh?

TheMC, why would the rubrics for this change with incense? At this point, the priest is finished with incensing the gifts. The next use of incense is not until the elevation of the host/chalice.

 

[TheMc]

TheMC, why would the rubrics for this change with incense? At this point, the priest is finished with incensing the gifts. The next use of incense is not until the elevation of the host/chalice.

Usually, the people stand when they are incensed, which is before the priest’s prayer that John quoted (“Pray, brethren…).”

 

[GwenL]

Usually, the people stand when they are incensed, which is before the priest’s prayer that John quoted (“Pray, brethren…).”

You are right–they would already be standing when the priest says “Pray, brethren.” But I think the only place that tells the people to stand while being incensed are in the EF rubrics. Japhy might be able to help with this one.

 

[japhy]

You are right–they would already be standing when the priest says “Pray, brethren.” But I think the only place that tells the people to stand while being incensed are in the EF rubrics. Japhy might be able to help with this one.

The Ceremonial of Bishops (CB) supplies the missing rubric from the GIRM:
149 Next, the censerbearer goes to the bishop. As a deacon holds the incense boat, the bishop puts incense in the censer and blesses it. The bishop receives the censer from the deacon and, in the same way as at the beginning of Mass and accompanied by a deacon, incenses the gifts, as well as the altar and the cross. After this, all rise, and a deacon, standing at the side of the altar, incenses the bishop, who stands without the miter, then the concelebrants, then the people. Care should be taken that the invitation Pray, brethren and the prayer over the gifts do not begin until the incensation has been completed.
So all rise after the altar is incensed, and CB does not provide a rubric for the people (or anyone else) to sit after that point; so the congregation is standing when the bishop says “Pray, brethren…” (CB 151).

 

[GwenL]

The Ceremonial of Bishops (CB) supplies the missing rubric from the GIRM:
149 Next, the censerbearer goes to the bishop. As a deacon holds the incense boat, the bishop puts incense in the censer and blesses it. The bishop receives the censer from the deacon and, in the same way as at the beginning of Mass and accompanied by a deacon, incenses the gifts, as well as the altar and the cross. After this, all rise, and a deacon, standing at the side of the altar, incenses the bishop, who stands without the miter, then the concelebrants, then the people. Care should be taken that the invitation Pray, brethren and the prayer over the gifts do not begin until the incensation has been completed.
So all rise after the altar is incensed, and CB does not provide a rubric for the people (or anyone else) to sit after that point; so the congregation is standing when the bishop says “Pray, brethren…” (CB 151).

All rise after the incensation of the altar and gifts, and before the incensation of the bishop. And then stay standing through “Pray, Brethren.” We are supposed to use the same rubrics when the celebrant is a priest not a bishop? This makes sense, but…

There are other differences in the peoples’ postures when the bishop celebrates that we do not use with a priest celebrant. For example, the blessing with the Gospel book.

 

[Joan_M]

You are assuming too much. It may be a regional-cultural thing or a simple courtesy thing where you put the feminine before the masculine. There is no stylistic or grammatical rule that requires the longer sounding word first.

In Spanish, for example, the feminine always comes before the masculine as a sign of respect and courtesy. damas y caballeros…hermanas y hermanos…senoras y senores…ninas y ninos.

No, I’m not assuming too much. The pairings I listed are correct English and have been for a very long time. It is not regional-cultural at all.

Certainly your examples from the Spanish are correct and different from what I quoted. I am quoting correct English, not Spanish.

 

[japhy]

We are supposed to use the same rubrics when the celebrant is a priest not a bishop? This makes sense, but… There are other differences in the peoples’ postures when the bishop celebrates that we do not use with a priest celebrant. For example, the blessing with the Gospel book.

The people are not incensed while sitting down, so we must stand for the incensing. It then makes little (to no) sense to sit down so that the priest can invite us to pray, only to immediately stand afterward.

The blessing with the Gospel book doesn’t happen when the celebrant isn’t a bishop, so that isn’t an example of when you’d look to the CB to supplement the GIRM or RM. But since a priest can incense the altar and gifts, and then have a deacon (or other minister) incense him and the congregation, the CB is relevant here: it fills in the gaps in rubrical directions.

 

[Batfink]

After this, all rise, and a deacon, standing at the side of the altar, incenses the bishop, who stands without the miter, then the concelebrants, then the people.

That’s interesting: it seems to say that everyone stands at the same time. It has always been my experience that each individual group stands as the thurifer comes to cense them, i.e. the celebrant is already standing, having censed the gifts himself, then the concelebrants stand to be censed but the congregation remain seated, then the congregation stand to be censed when the thurifer comes to the front. Is this wrong?