Prayer and Detachment

[Sirach2]

DBT:

And as we learn we will begin to recognize that the reasons we forget Him usually has to do with some particular attachment that’s been occupying our mind.

How true it is that, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. (And the mind thinks!) Where our treasure is, there follows our thoughts and heart. If this is an attachment we dearly love and loathe to let go of, then, amen, we have our reward. But at what expense! Losing the indwelling recollection, joy, peace, familiarity of the Holy Spirit.

Dave, take a look at pg. 565 of Osuna’s book. St. Teresa quotes this very material in her Life, and it addresses what you were trying to say, I believe.

This business of thinking about ‘nothing’ is more than it is reported to be. The least good inherent in this thinking about nothing is that the recollected are very simply and very subtly attentive to God alone. It prepares us to be detached and disencumbered so the heart may soar to God alone who wishes it free and whole.

How solemnly theological this paragraph is, compared to the “empty mind” concept that some are taught in eastern mysticism. The rest of the page has good instruction, and I’ll leave it to your good way of explaining it further, if you would like to share your thoughts on it.

 

[DBT]

Dave, take a look at pg. 565 of Osuna’s book. St. Teresa quotes this very material in her Life, and it addresses what you were trying to say, I believe

This business of thinking about ‘nothing’ is more

Thank you Sirach for your reference and for prodding me forward with Osuna . . . for I’m not quite “there” yet.

This whole noting of quieting the understanding (the topic of these pages in Osuna) is so misunderstood and so difficult to describe I hesitate to try lest I be misunderstood. Suffice it to say, though, it is not a matter of blanking the mind. Rather, it is quite the opposite.

It is an entering into interior silence in which all there is is God . . . but it’s a state in which “images, forms and ideas” of Him are a hindrance rather than a help. It is not a state of being empty . . . but a state of being filled. One of St. Teresa’s many great accomplishments was to describe the levels or degrees of the silence I’m doing such a good job of mangling up in my crude explanations. . . . how we proceed from recollection to quiet and, ultimately, union itself. These are those fleeting, transitory “experiences” of contemplation I mentioned in an earlier post.

Futher, she so wonderfully describes how we are to cooperate with His grace to enter into the silence in which He can be found . . . from letting go our active thinking and reasoning (meditation), to the “enclosure of the soul within its heart” (recollection) to embrace the stilled wanderings of intellect, will and memory that marks the infused states themselves.

We are not blank . . . but entirely tuned in to God. It’s “like” the radio frequency is dialed in loud and clear . . . but we don’t need an actual transmission to get the message. The transmission is there, of course, it simply occurs beyond our perception of it . . . in the purity of Light itself. Unfiltered by our sense or spirit. Pure infusion . . . a direct contact with Him.

We reach a point in these brief moments of pure contemplation in which all is God . . . and God is all. Nothing extraneous is allowed by Him to enter our mind and heart. Our only thought is of God Himself. But it’s not even that, really, for it’s much more elemental than a thought.

It’s a “sense” of presence . . .

A basking in His glow . . .

It is the experience of I AM.

Dave

 

[Monica4316]

They go hand in hand, really. The Ascent and Dark Night are best viewed as one complete work.

The Ascent treats the active night of sense (Book 1) and active night of spirit (Books 2 & 3). Basically, these are the things we do by way of mortification, self-denial, detachment and so on. It also encompasses all our active ways of prayer: vocal, meditation, recollection etc.

The Dark Night treats the passive night of sense (Book 1) and passive night of spirit (Book 2). This is the work God does in us to rid us of the habitual imperfections we can’t do on our own. Often we are blind to the imperfections that lie within us . . . so it takes God’s purifying hand to cleanse us. The work God does in us in these nights is the fruit of infused prayer . . . contemplation.

We tend to think of these nights as linear and seperate . . . in reality, they’re not. For example, souls on the threshold of being brought to contemplation are often said to be in the passive night of sense . . . while they learn to embrace the silence and simplicity they are drawn to in prayer. At the same time, the ascetic life of these souls is likely to be wrapped up in the type of things that occur in the active night of spirit . . . the internal struggles that imped the type of “quiet” prayer they long for. Namely this involves rejecting the pull of the thoughts and feelings that draw the soul away from God and cause them to forget Him.

Hope this helps,
Dave

Monica - the active night is the part we have control over - prayer and mortification, the active effort to be recollected and direct everything to God, etc. The passive night is the work that God Himself does in us.

thanks for the replies!!

God bless

 

[Monica4316]

You’ve got a very good handle on things, Inlight Passive trials often come through the hands of others . . . especially those closest to us. Embracing the trial as you are is a true sign of detachment. And you’ll know you’ve reached the pinnacle when you’re indifferent as to whether it brings you joy or suffering . . . for you’ll love just the same.

Easier said than done, though

My prayers are with you,
Dave

Dave, I think that’s very true that we demonstrate detachment when we accept God’s will in our trials, and care more about His will being done than whether we feel joy or suffering… one thing I’ve been thinking about is, - is it still detachment if the person accepts suffering in their will, but feels a great aversion to it? or do those feelings go away as the person grows in detachment?

 

[DBT]

• is it still detachment if the person accepts suffering in their will, but feels a great aversion to it? or do those feelings go away as the person grows in detachment?

As in all things we can/should always look to the example of Christ who experienced all things in it’s “human” fullness and yet always elevated it to the “divine” . . .

"May this cup pass from me . . . "

immediately followed by

“Not my will but yours be done.”

Dave

 

[Psychotheosophy]

We’re talking about two different things . . . our willfull clinging to an attachment as part of our struggle in the active nights

(The Ascent) vs. the cloud God sometimes places over our intellect and memory to darken us and make us more reliant on Him in the passive nights (Dark Night). Or so it seems . . . .
DBT;6754506:

The best way I can describe it is when we “rest” in our joy, hope, sorrow and fears (St. John’s terms) without

raising our hearts to God. We do this all the time without realizing it.

So,
The non-willful clinging to a sorrowful “rest,”
Is union with God?

Since all people naturally desire a “happiness” without sorrow,
An unending “happiness” with sorrow, decays in time,
To unending unhappiness.

Is what false? I’m not sure what you’re asking.

I’m reasonably certain that you are sure,
But are not willing.

 

[DBT]

So,
The non-willful clinging to a sorrowful “rest,”
Is union with God?

I’m reasonably certain that you are sure,
But are not willing.

Hello again Psychotheosopy -

I would really like to try and respond . . . but I just don’t know what you’re trying to say. Maybe you can help me out a bit?

Dave

 

[InLight247]

Originally by DBT

It is an entering into interior silence in which all there is is God . . . but it’s a state in which “images, forms and ideas” of Him are a hindrance rather than a help. **It is not a state of being empty . . . but a state of being filled. . . . how we proceed from recollection to quiet ** and, ultimately, union itself. These are those fleeting, transitory “experiences” of contemplation I mentioned in an earlier post.

Dave, you said it so well, couldn’t be better.
This is my take: Usually the “empty of mind” is not just an action or an effort starts at the moment of prayer, like the first step of preparation for contemplation. Instead it is a constant state of mind, a habitual status of the heart that is full of God. This is not to say our responsibilities, concerns and other things in our daily lives are not with us; it is to say that with joys, sorrows, worries, concerns, and sufferings as a normal part of life, the thought of God surfaces above them all and fills our mind and heart.

It is like entering a room full of people (worries, concerns, joys, sorrows, pains, sufferings, etc…) but our eyes only fall on the one we love, the prince of our life (God). Even the room is not physically empty; it won’t hinder the fullness of God.

I don’t know if I made any sense. I like what you said ── “It is not a state of being empty, but a state of being filled.”

 

[DBT]

I don’t know if I made any sense.

Did to me

Regarding my understanding of emptying vs. filling, I like to think of it like this:

Part of our work in the active night of spirit is to *slow things down *in our mind and heart . . . to not let ourselves get carried away by all the flights of imagination that take us away from His presence. While we can do this to a certain degree; it is really God who does this slowing down in it’s fullest in infused prayer.

But, as St. John teaches, “nature abhors a vacuum.” So while we are emptied (by either active or passive means) we can not remain empty as I believe is taught in eastern mysticism . . . we must be filled with something. And since the devil has no admittance here, that something . . . is God.

What I’m trying to say in all this, I suppose, is a mystical and very personal understanding of “He must increase; I must decrease” as it applies to what occupies our mind and heart as recollection gives way to the passive states.

Hope that didn’t muck things up

Dave

 

[DBT]

Quick revision to add an important point I failed to mention (in case anybody besides me cares ) . . .

Regarding my understanding of emptying vs. filling, I like to think of it like this:

Part of our work in the active night of spirit is to slow things down in our mind and heart . . . to not let ourselves get carried away by all the flights of imagination that take us away from His presence. While we can do this to a certain degree; it is really God who does this slowing down in it’s fullest in infused prayer. And this slowing down is what I mean by emptying. (new comment)

But, as St. John teaches, “nature abhors a vacuum.” So while we are emptied (by either active or passive means) we can not remain empty as I believe is taught in eastern mysticism . . . we must be filled with something. And since the devil has no admittance here, that something . . . is God.

What I’m trying to say in all this, I suppose, is a mystical and very personal understanding of “He must increase; I must decrease” as it applies to what occupies our mind and heart as recollection gives way to the passive states.

Hope that didn’t muck things up

Dave

 

[Monica4316]

As in all things we can/should always look to the example of Christ who experienced all things in it’s “human” fullness and yet always elevated it to the “divine” . . .

"May this cup pass from me . . . "

immediately followed by

“Not my will but yours be done.”

Dave

that’s very true!! I didn’t think of that… thanks! God bless

 

[roveau]

Just to thank you all for this discussion, so well done. I will pray for God’s grace on all of you.

 

[DBT]

May His blessings and peace be with you too, Rove

Good night to all

Dave

PS. I see your tag line. For those not familiar, Francisco de Osuna, discussed in this thread, was a Franciscan

 

[InLight247]

original by DBT
Regarding my understanding of emptying vs. filling, I like to think of it like this:

Part of our work in the active night of spirit is to slow things down in our mind and heart . . . to not let ourselves get carried away by all the flights of imagination that take us away from His presence. While we can do this to a certain degree; it is really God who does this slowing down in it’s fullest in infused prayer. And this slowing down is what I mean by emptying. (new comment)

Slowing down…… Emptying……. Filling……….

I think we are talking about the process, the process of detachment.
When things occupy our mind and heart, we cannot make room for the divine.
The emptying is to make room. In order to empty, we must first slow down.

Just like reaching holiness starts from eliminating sin, followed by working on virtues and getting rid of imperfections, the journey is step by step. Detachment is a journey. We are to detach ourselves from worldly attractions. But what we are discussing here is focusing on detachment in prayers ―― how to reach better concentration on God in our prayers, so our wild imaginations may not fly around to impede the fillings of God.

Our own efforts of slowing down pave the way for God’s work of slowing down, that eventually leads to the infused contemplation, if God wills, the precious fleeting moment you talked about.

 

[Sirach2]

Rejoice with me, for I have just come from confession and resolved - no more controversial threads on the internet! :dancing:I recognized lately the terrible toll these arguments cause in one’s ability to maintain recollection.

What a trap overzealousness can be, as St. Teresa warned in her *Life. *I noted this in Osuna’s work also, for he warned against it in the same area of his book that I quoted from the other day. It was really timely that I reviewed that chapter, though I was not particularly attuned to that aspect of it. The Holy Spirit loves to surprise us!

If we allow our minds to become filled with disagreements and arguing outside of prayer time, it is very difficult to recover interior silence inside our prayer later. It is prudent to be to be strong and cut the cords whenever we find ourselves deep in the clutches of this seemingly harmless pasttime. The internet is a wonderful gift for folks in our millenium, but it is also full of snares that one can hardly recognize until we find ourselves bereft of that loving companionship Our Lord bestows to those who detach themselves from excess preoccupations that do not serve His purpose.

St. John said it so beautifully in Spiritual Canticle, and today, I better understand his counsel:

“If, then, I am no longer seen or found on the common, you will say that I am lost.”

Thus, by the common, the soul refers to the world, where worldlings engage in their pastimes and conversation and feed the flock of their appetites.

 

[DBT]

I think we are talking about the process, the process of detachment.

Yes

You covered so much of the theology of St. John in your post! Our detachment begins with what is “exterior” . . . and becomes progressively more “interior.” Curbing our appetites, avoiding sin, practicing virtue on the one hand . . . disciplining our mind and heart to remain where it’s treasure is on the other.

We begin by maintaining custody and practicing self-denial of our exterior senses (seeing, hearing, tasting, touching etc) . . . then, we proceed to discipline our interior senses (imagination, phantasy). All these must by “quieted” by our efforts in the active night of sense “in order to enter the way of the spirit” (Kavanaugh p770). Then, our ascetical efforts will become almost entirely interior as our work in the active night of spirit curbs our passions (thoughts and feelings) to be continually re-directed to God. The fruit of this is a quieting in our spiritual faculties (intellect, will and memory) that prepares and predisposes us to recieve God as He truly is . . . in silence. This, in a nutshell, is the work of recollection.

God, of course, sees our feeble attempts at detachment in sense and spirit and greatly aids us through tremendous infusions of grace. . . for God helps those who help themselves. He does this by taking our “exterior” way of prayer (vocal, meditation etc) and brings it closer to Him in “interior” prayer (contemplation). This contemplation is the “loving inflow of God” that begins to cleanse us of the imperfections previously hidden to us that lie on the outer edges of our soul . . . like “cutting off branches” of a dying tree. This is the work of the passive night of sense.

Then, seeing our faithfulness and fidelity to prayer and virtue . . . despite the pain and suffering it brings . . . He proceeds to “complete” His work in us. He does this by going to the innermost recesses our our soul . . . to “pull up by the very roots” all our remaining, deep seated imperfections. This is the work of the passive night of spirit.

So the active and the passive work together to purify and detach our sense and spirit. To bring our whole self into greater conformity to Him.

And it is very much a process.

Dave

 

[DBT]

Rejoice with me

:dancing:

If we allow our minds to become filled with disagreements and arguing outside of prayer time, it is very difficult to recover interior silence inside our prayer later.

Or, to speak more broady, any mental preoccupation - be it a joy, hope, sorrow or fear - that chooses to rest in itself and not rise to God in recollection will have the same effect!

Brother Lawrence said it so well: If we don’t want to be distracted in prayer . . . don’t be distracted outside of it.

I’m very happy for you, Sirach

Dave

 

[Psychotheosophy]

Psychotheosophy;6758144:

So,
The non-willful clinging to a sorrowful “rest,”
Is union with God?

I would really like to try and respond . . . but I just don’t know what you’re trying to say. Maybe you can help me out a bit?

I think St. John of the Cross can clarify…

“…If things did not turn out as you desired, you ought rather to be consoled and thank God profusely. Since His Majesty has so arranged matters, it is what most suits everyone… And it is obvious that this is not evil or harmful, neither for me nor for anyone. It is in my favor since, being freed and relieved from the care of souls, I can, if I want and with God’s help, enjoy peace, solitude, and the delightful fruit of forgetfulness of self and of all things. It is also good for others that I be separated from them, for thus they will be freed of the faults they would have committed on account of my misery… Now, until God and patience, desiring to resemble somewhat in suffering this great God of ours, humbled and crucified. This life is not good if it is not an imitation of His life.”

St. John of the Cross
(Toward the end of his life in a letter written to Madre Ana de Jesus.)

So,
The willful clinging to Perfect Happiness,
Is union with God.
However,
Being forgetful of the world,
Means we continue to live in the world,
But not of the world.
For example,
Regarding eating…

The vice of gluttony does not lie in food as such, but in unregulated and unreasonable desire for it. Eating too much thinking one needs it is not gluttony, but inexperience. Gluttony is knowingly eating too much pleasurable food for pleasure’s sake.

Summa Theologica: A Concise Translation

I’m sure certain medical conditions would also need to be considered regarding gluttony, and willing overeating.

 

[InLight247]

Psychotheosophy,

Would you please use your own words to explain your point? I am kind of lost. I understand your quotes, but don’t understand what you are trying to say. Thanks.

 

[InLight247]

Rejoice with me, for I have just come from confession and resolved - no more controversial threads on the internet! :dancing:I recognized lately the terrible toll these arguments cause in one’s ability to maintain recollection.

Rejoicing with you, Sirach2!

Originally by DBT
Or, to speak more broadly, any mental preoccupation - be it a joy, hope, sorrow or fear - that chooses to rest in itself and not rise to God in recollection will have the same effect!

Brother Lawrence said it so well: If we don’t want to be distracted in prayer . . . don’t be distracted outside of it.

Well said. I was trying to say the same thing earlier but couldn’t come up with the sentences.

Talking about St. John’s theology, couple weeks ago, our parish had a visiting Carmelite priest. I talked to him briefly and told him he was the very first Carmelite I have ever met in person. He was surprised. Then I told him I read St. John’s work and asked him a question about dark night. He asked me if I understood St. John’s writing, I said yes (or most of them, so I thought), he was more surprised. That was a short but good conversation. Just want to mention.