Prayer for Judas . .

[ecs_220]

“Until there is an infallible pronouncement as such (and there will not be since public revelation is closed), we are only free to speculate.”

The words of Jesus are not infallible? “Better that he had not been born.” “Son of perdition.” Next you’ll be telling us Jesus was only speculating when he said to the Good Thief, “This day you will be with me in Paradise.”

Jesus is above speculation, and His words are not fallible. Our private interpretation of His words is indeed fallible. Our non-Catholic bretheren might keep that in mind when Jesus plainly tells them “…you must eat My Flesh and drink My Blood or you have no life in you…” (which Paul reiterates with equal plainspokenness, urging us not “…to eat and drink condemnation unto yourselves…” in the Breaking of the Bread). True, many a Protestant theologian has been trying to explain that one away for several centuries now – with neither Apostolic nor Scriptural authority.

 

[Ric]

ecs 220:

Right. And Judas Iscariot was the only one of the Apostles who “perished” (either “hanged himself with a halter” or “fell…his internal organs bursting forth…” or both) while Jesus walked the earth. Whether one submits to the authority or teaching of the Catholic Church or not – and despite the fact that one definition of the English word “perdition” is “hell” or “eternal damnation” (the other is “destruction”) – that passage alone does not tell me that Judas Iscariot is definitely now definitely in a state completely devoid of hope. I understand the view that he probably would be, but need we resign ourselves to it?

BTW, a close family member of mine took his own life many, many years ago. I’m certainly glad that the Church has expressed a new, more compassionate view toward victims of suicide (and their loved ones), rather than the cut-and-dried extrabiblical “too late, too bad” stance of centuries past.

John 17:12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (NASB)

Forget the lable “son of perdition” and focus on what was stated before the lable; not one of them perished but the.

There is God’s Word speaking for us, and no interpitation is needed.

 

[Slow_Burn]

Well said, ecs. Coming from a fellow Catholic, that post surprises me, Carl. Of course Jesus’ words are infallible. The entire MESSAGE of the Bible is infallible. While taking something for face value or it’s “obvious” meaning may seem elementary, it is not, as ecs’ example stated. Why don’t Baptists believe that baptism is necessary to salvation, when it seems pretty “obvious”, even to many non-Baptist Protestants, that the words, "Amen, Amen, I say to you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit (John 3:5). How can one read those words and not come to the “obvious” conclusion that Baptism is a requirement of salvation? The reason is that some people rely on their own interpretation of the words of Jesus. Unless the Bible can interpret itself (which it can’t; another dividing issue between Catholics and Protestants) or an infallible teaching authority exists (which is held by the Catholic Church), the best we can do is speculate on the interpretation; even of “obvious” passages like the ones mentioned above. In the example of the passage noted above regarding Baptism, fortunately we do have an infallible interpretation. My point was never that Judas’ was not in Hell, he may very well be. In fact, it may be probable that he is. What I am trying to convey is that in spite of all the “probablies” and “maybes”, we should never claim to know for CERTAIN something that is not defined infallibly.

 

[Slow_Burn]

I’m glad you created that last post, Ric, because I think it demonstates a fundamental issue which I’ve never been quite able to understand regarding Protestant hermaneutics. Let me play devil’s advocate for just a minute. Let’s say that you interpret that passage from John as you have (even though you just stated that “no interpretation is needed”). What if I told you that I interpret it to mean something else? Since the Holy Spirit cannot lie and there can only be one meaning to the passage, who is right? You or I? Is the Holy Spirit present in you to help you interpret the passage as you have (even though “no interpretation is needed”) and not present in me, preventing me from “seeing” the correct interpretation? If I believe that I’m guided by the Holy Spirit, and I believe you certainly do too, how do we solve this impass?

 

[Ric]

Slow Burn:

I’m glad you created that last post, Ric, because I think it demonstates a fundamental issue which I’ve never been quite able to understand regarding Protestant hermaneutics. Let me play devil’s advocate for just a minute. Let’s say that you interpret that passage from John as you have (even though you just stated that “no interpretation is needed”). What if I told you that I interpret it to mean something else? Since the Holy Spirit cannot lie and there can only be one meaning to the passage, who is right? You or I? Is the Holy Spirit present in you to help you interpret the passage as you have (even though “no interpretation is needed”) and not present in me, preventing me from “seeing” the correct interpretation? If I believe that I’m guided by the Holy Spirit, and I believe you certainly do too, how do we solve this impass?

The best short answer I can give you is that Scripture can not contradict Scripture. I can give you a very long answer, but I don’t want to type that much! That is about one way I can tell you where we can find where the truth is without the help of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Slow_Burn]

I don’t want to put words in your mouth, Ric, but I’m supposing that the “long answer” describing were Scripture can’t contradict Scriputure will involve giving me a “known”, and then explaining how the “unknown” must conform to that which is “known”. For example: We KNOW that Judas died (specifically by hanging himself), therefore the only way to interpret the passage in John that you speak of is if Judas was the one that “perished”. I would then ask you, “how do you know that the word PERISHED means as you say it does”? The easy answer always seems to be, “well, come on, it’s obvious!”. But is it really? Can you as a fallible individual interpret infallibly? If that’s the gist of it, I’d reply by asking you, “how do you KNOW for certain what you think you KNOW”? I would be in the same boat, but not for the authority of the Catholic Church which tells me what is certain regarding only SOME issues. I know this has the potential to open a whole can of worms (for example, how a Protestant even knows the canon of scripture to be complete), but that’s where discussions like these inevitably lead. Which I think is a good thing. I enjoy the dialogue. One day I hope you will see things as I do, but until then I appreciate the conversations we’re able to have via these forums.

 

[Ric]

Slow Burn:

I don’t want to put words in your mouth, Ric, but I’m supposing that the “long answer” describing were Scripture can’t contradict Scriputure will involve giving me a “known”, and then explaining how the “unknown” must conform to that which is “known”. For example: We KNOW that Judas died (specifically by hanging himself), therefore the only way to interpret the passage in John that you speak of is if Judas was the one that “perished”. I would then ask you, “how do you know that the word PERISHED means as you say it does”? The easy answer always seems to be, “well, come on, it’s obvious!”. But is it really? Can you as a fallible individual interpret infallibly? If that’s the gist of it, I’d reply by asking you, “how do you KNOW for certain what you think you KNOW”? I would be in the same boat, but not for the authority of the Catholic Church which tells me what is certain regarding only SOME issues. I know this has the potential to open a whole can of worms (for example, how a Protestant even knows the canon of scripture to be complete), but that’s where discussions like these inevitably lead. Which I think is a good thing. I enjoy the dialogue. One day I hope you will see things as I do, but until then I appreciate the conversations we’re able to have via these forums.

And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
(Acts 1:24-26 ESV)

The expression “to go to his own place” is one which is used by ancient writers to denote “going to an eternal destiny” is part of showing where Scripture interprets Scripture in the case of Judas.

I too love these forums, I have talked with Roman Catholics for about seven to eight years now. Apologitics is a “hobby” of mine, and also a great teaching tool I use in my Bible studies and other teachings.

 

[Carl]

SLOW BURN

“What I am trying to convey is that in spite of all the “probablies” and “maybes”, we should never claim to know for CERTAIN something that is not defined infallibly.”

I really wish you had not said that.

Down this way lies the slippery slope to rank relativism. I know a psychologist who thinks like this. Like the Socrates of Athens, he is always challenging what we know to be common sense.

The problem with your reasoning is that we should never know anything for sure except that which is infallibly defined by the Pope ex cathedra. Well, such doctrines, as you know, are few and far between. I do not require, nor does the Pope, to have his assent for things I take to be absolutely tue as a matter of Biblical certainty. When Jesus tells me the Good Thief will be in Paradise, I venerate him as a saint. When Jesus tells me it would have better for him if the traitor had never been born, I know Judas is in Hell. I do not need an infallible proclamation from the Pope for matters of common sense certainty. The use of Papal Infallibility has always beeen reserved for those occasions when the Church collectively was in doubt, or in debate, over matters of doctrine, as in Peter’s decision to end the matter of circumcision for the Gentiles at the Council of Jerusalem. He spoke literally for all the apostles on that occasion. Protestants can claim all they want an uncertainty about the significance of that defining moment in the history of the papacy; but there it is, Peter leading the way, the others shutting up after he speaks.

But most of what Jesus taught does not require a papal endorsement for us to know it to be certain truth. For example, the two commandments Jesus gave us sum up the whole law of Moses. Are you uncertain about the truth of those commandments? I am not. Or when, in the Gospel of John, Jesus calls Satan a liar and a murderer from the beginning, I am absolutely certain of his meaning. Are you uncertain?

It’s this unwillingness to be certain of anything that fuels Protestantism. Any man or woman can think what he wants to think of Scripture and deny simply stated truths as if they were poetic metaphors, such as the Lord’s Supper. But only if you believe in the certainty of a literal truth can you see the Body and Blood of Our Lord. Otherwise you comfort yourself with poetic metaphors and deny the Real Presence. But it took no early pope to speak *ex cathedra * on the Real Presence because the early Christians knew a literal truth when they saw one.

So I think in matters where Scripture is vague, or there is no scriptural reference to the matter, we might be uncertain until the pope settles the matter. But where Scripture is plain and clear, we ought not to be trumpeting our doubts.

 

[ecs_220]

Ric:

John 17:12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Thy name which Thou hast given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. (NASB)

Forget the lable “son of perdition” and focus on what was stated before the lable; not one of them perished but the.

There is God’s Word speaking for us, and no interpitation is needed.

Please re-read my post. Judas did indeed perish – he died . He was the *only one * of the Twelve who died while Christ walked the earth. Nowhere in any Bible I’ve read does it say plainly, “…and he went to hell to be punished for all eternity; too bad for him.” The nearest we can come is a comment that Judas “…went to his place.” What place? Sheol, the abode of the dead? Hell? Gehenna? “Purgatory” (or the burning away of the “wood, hay, or straw” that is described in the NT, and which many non-Catholic Christians deny)? What I’m saying is, would it not be better to take a chance and say a prayer for this twisted soul anyway rather than assume that he’s lost forever, and spare ourselves the trouble?

Again, apologists, feel free to jump in.

 

[Slow_Burn]

Carl,

Thank you for your last post. I understand the point you are making. At the same time, what you understand thru your reading of Scripture to be “true” and a “common sense certainty” may not be for another individual. If, for instance, I read John 17:12 and do not come to the same conclusion as you regarding the meaning of “perished” or “son of perdition”, you then must assume that I do not possess common sense, as you do. Even if I attempt to use other “common sense” passages in the Bible to let “Scripture interpret Scripture” as Ric has attempted to do earlier, I’m left no better off, since someone could always question the “certainty” of the interpretation of that passage as well. I happen to lean the same direction as you regarding Judas’ place, but I’m saying that without an infallible prouncement, the debate is left open. If I were to state that I disagree with your common sense conclusion, do I take a place outside the pale of Catholic orthodoxy? Your concern about relativism is valid. I agree with you that it’s a trap too many fall into. The gist of relativism is that there’s no such thing as absolute truth. There clearly is a “truth” regarding Judas’ eternal destiny. He’s either eternally secure or eternally damned. I’m not denying that. I’m simply denying that we can know it for certain based on our plain reading of the Bible.

 

[SHEMP]

ecs 220:

Perhaps an apologist can jump in here, but I have from time to time prayed for Judas Iscariot – most often accompanied by a prayer that Our Lord will excuse my own ignorance in the matter.

No mortal can know who if anyone might be in hell. If Judas is going to heaven, I would think that his soul would require significant cleansing in purgatory. Therefore he, like all of us, may benefit from prayers

 

[Carl]

SHEMP

“No mortal can know who if anyone might be in hell.”

“if anyone”

Does this mean you think it’s possible that nobody is in hell?

SLOW BURN

I’m going to adopt for the moment your position.

If Judas is in purgatory, which you say is possible, given the enormity of his crime, he would still be saved at least when the last trumpet is blown. And that might be something he would be glad to settle for.That would be God’s justice at work, along with his mercy, if it is remotely possible that Judas repented as he dangled from the tree. And so I would spend all my own prayers on those ahead of Judas in purgatory’s waiting line.

Yet I think you err in not taking the words of Jesus as literal and certain, when he said it would have been better had Judas not been born. There can be only one thing nothingness is better than – hell.

Pax te cum,
Carl

 

[Ric]

ecs 220:

Please re-read my post. Judas did indeed perish – he died . He was the *only one * of the Twelve who died while Christ walked the earth. Nowhere in any Bible I’ve read does it say plainly, “…and he went to hell to be punished for all eternity; too bad for him.” The nearest we can come is a comment that Judas “…went to his place.” What place? Sheol, the abode of the dead? Hell? Gehenna? “Purgatory” (or the burning away of the “wood, hay, or straw” that is described in the NT, and which many non-Catholic Christians deny)? What I’m saying is, would it not be better to take a chance and say a prayer for this twisted soul anyway rather than assume that he’s lost forever, and spare ourselves the trouble?

Again, apologists, feel free to jump in.

Please read post number 27, that may help you see what the Bible is saying.

 

[SHEMP]

Carl:

SHEMP
Does this mean you think it’s possible that nobody is in hell?

Since I am the worst sinner that I truly know, I can only hope that hell is empty, for fear that I will be the only one there.

Do you know that hell is not empty? I believe in hell. I fear hell. I also believe that God has infinate love. He can keep hell empty if he so chooses.

A nice book that touches on this matter is Death on a Friday Afternoon by Fr. Richard John Neuhaus.

 

[Tyler_Smedley]

I think that God can keep hell empty if he chooses but what about all those people who totally turn their back on God? I think that the bottom line is that hell is not empty and we all know it, what do you think that they made the last rites for?

 

[SHEMP]

Tyler Smedley:

I think that God can keep hell empty if he chooses but what about all those people who totally turn their back on God? I think that the bottom line is that hell is not empty and we all know it, what do you think that they made the last rites for?

I hope you are wrong!

 

[Herrobp]

ecs 220:

Does that leave me a 0.001% chance that my prayer for his soul might not be in vain? Let me pose another query: does my concern for the soul of Christ’s betrayer place me in a sinful position? It is not my intent to be presumptuous or to offend Our Lord by my intercession; are we not urged to pray for those for whom no one prays? Might it not be better to run the risk of merely wasting my time, to beg God’s mercy on the Lowest of the Low?

Dear ECS,

I am of the opinion that prayer is never wasted. I would venture to guess that your intentions are to pray for Judas as long as those prayers are in accordance with God’s will. If they are not, I would think your prayers are still beneficial as they will be applied somewhere else in accordance with His will. I’m not asking you to stop praying for Judas. I was simply giving you my opinion that your prayers are probably not of too much comfort to Judas. But as I said, as long as your prayers are offered with the desire to please God, and the desire to offer prayers in accordance with His will, I can’t imagine that your prayers for the repose of Judas’ soul are offensive to God.

I’m sorry if I sounded presumptuous before. I must admit the possibility that I have not properly interpreted scripture on this matter. And to the best of my knowledge, the Church has not rendered infallible judgment with regards to this issue. It is simply my opinion based on my interpretation of Scripture that Judas is in Hell.

God bless, and keep up the prayers!

 

[Veronica_Anne]

Slow Burn:

Maddalena,

I think we need to be careful in ascribing what WE believe to be “just” and what is right in the eyes of GOD. If Judas is in Hell, it isn’t because he made a mistake and is now wishing he hadn’t. If he’s in Hell, it’s because the time finally came for him to make a decision to either be in the presence of God or the absence of God, and he chose Hell himself. God doesn’t send people to Hell, he let’s them have their way. In the end, I guess God says to us something to the effect of, “Thy will be done.”

God desires all of us to be with him, but our free will would mean nothing if he plucked some individuals from the brink of the fires of Hell from, time to time, who chose to go there rather than be with him. That would render the attribute of love meaningless. If that were the case, he may be an all-merciful God, but he wouldn’t be an all-loving and all-just God, which we know are attributes of the God we serve. Not only are our prayers for those in Hell non-efficacious, they are not even wanted by those we are praying for.

Todd, I couldn’t agree with you more.

Suicide is the act of someone who doesn’t have any hope.

Love is not forcing someone to be with you for all eternity if you don’t want to be there with them.

My mom told me that she was heartsick when her father committed suicide. The priest told her: How DARE you presume what God has decided that your father is to go to Hell because he committed suicide?!? You don’t know that at the last moment as he slipped into death that he wished he hadn’t done it!

So… I pray for EVERYONE who has died and leave it to God to apply my prayer however/whomever He wants to apply it.



About Judas… somehow it comes to my mind (rightly or wrongly) that SOMEone had to “do the dirty deed” and hand Jesus over.

Have you seen that movie… the Passion of the Christ… and the look that Jesus gave Judas when Judas kissed him to betray him? That LOVE that Jesus has for Judas!! It’s so DIFFICULT for me to think that Jesus could be any OTHER way than that!

For me when I betray Jesus (sin) , too!

 

[kellie]

Tyler Smedley:

Thats true prayers won’t help people in hell, they had their chance and chose other than God. I think that Judas is in hell because of committing suicide, that is a mortal sin because you are breaking the commandment Thou shall not kill and also there is no chance for repentance. That means that he died with a mortal sin on his soul and therefore the church teaches that he will go to hell. Pray for those in purgatory there your prayers can help. Peace.

It true that people in hell cannot go to heaven. You have your chance on earth to choose God. But according to the parable of the paypacket, (sorry i cant think of what it is called) even at 1 minute to go on earth, we have a chance to choose God, and confess to him, even if it is a mortal sin we are confessing.

I think this is right.

So couldnt Judas have let go of the rope that was tied around his neck, and just beofre his neck broke (or however hanging works) he could of confessed to God and chosen His glorious Kingdom.

So Judas may be in Purgatory, waiting to be cleasned. I have been told all souls in Purgatory get to Heaven eventually, they just need cleansing.

Please correct me if I am wrong

Love Kellie

 

[Tyler_Smedley]

You are right that all souls in purgatory eventually make it to heaven. I just wonder if Judas is really there, hopefully he is but I just don’t think so.