Prayer for Ramadan

[robwar]

There’s a huge gulf between praying for members of one of the three Abrahamic faiths, and those of (sorry for my blunt language here) a whacko cult don’t you think? I’m pretty sure the Church doesn’t even recognize Scientology as a religion. She does however recognize that Islam worships the God of Abraham, as we do.

That is true but I think that Scientology was brought up in that if you are praying as a part of the prayers of the faithful in mass for one faith, there really is no limit to spread that to other faiths, one of the earlier post mentioned fasting times in Hinduism. You really can’t just limit this to only those faiths that worship the God of Abraham, that is not even a part of the guidelines for the prayer of the faithful. Islam does not see God a triune God so their understanding is very different. How we treat and interact with others in other faiths is one thing but to use the general prayers of the faithful which is part of the mass in this manner is on edge and considering the big response to this thread, it certainly has not brought us Catholics here discussing it peace and harmony. It shows you that this is off this was and whoever gave Oregon guidelines the go ahead or imprimatur should reconsider.

 

[Contarini]

If it was in an area with a high Muslim population those prayers would have been there to encourage multiculturalism but as there aren’t any interactions with Islam the prayers weren’t really needed.

Actually they’re surely more needed, because in such an area (I live in a small Midwestern town myself) people are likely to think of Muslims as stereotypical “evil terrorists,” and a prayer like this might challenge them in a good way.

The difference between such a prayer for Muslims and such a prayer for Hindus is that Muslims clearly worship the One God. Hindus also do so, but in many “forms” and “manifestations” which look a good deal like what the Bible describes as “idolatry.” Whether Hinduism should really be equated with Biblical idolatry (especially in Hinduism’s “higher” forms) I doubt, but at least there’s a reasonable question about it. So praying for them to have a “holy Diwali” would be a bit more problematic (though praying for God’s blessings on them in a more general way surely wouldn’t). But I don’t see anything wrong with this prayer.

 

[Contarini]

This prayer for Ramadan really doesn’t. While it may seems nice to wish well others in their practice of faith, if you start with ramadan, you really are going to have to start to include other faiths and praying for them in their practice such as time of fasting that other faiths have as well.

Why?

Different “faiths” are different. They have different relationships to Christianity.

Jews have the closest, and Muslims are next (I’d throw Sikhs and Bahais in there as well).

Religions less clearly monotheistic have a qualitatively different relationship to Christianity.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

According to the USCCB:

I am not sure how a prayer for Ramadan fits into that series.

It clearly fits under b.

Edwin

 

[backprop]

There’s a huge gulf between praying for members of one of the three Abrahamic faiths, and those of (sorry for my blunt language here) a whacko cult don’t you think? I’m pretty sure the Church doesn’t even recognize Scientology as a religion. She does however recognize that Islam worships the God of Abraham, as we do.

Yes, I do think there’s a huge difference. That’s why I made what I assumed was as a ridiculous example at first. So yes, these groups worship the same God, and so that answers an earlier question I had: what is the logical end to sanctioning prayer directed at other faiths? And one answer is that any of the Abrahamic faiths could be ‘fair game.’ There are still examples of, e.g. schismatic catholic churches.

I am probably looking for a strict rule where none exists.

 

[Contarini]

I doubt very much they would pray we have a holy lent.

Why is that even remotely relevant?

I don’t know any way to put this that isn’t rude and patronizing, but Jesus never said “do to others as you think they would do to you,” did he?

Yet somehow whenever the question of how to treat Muslims comes up, devout Christians speak as if that was what Jesus had said.

you should check with either your priest or worship director as to why that was done.

Right. Wherever you find a spark of charity, stamp it out.

That’s the way to follow Jesus and renew the Church. Good job!

Edwin

 

[robwar]

We have parts of our prayers during the Tasbeha (Coptic Midnight Praise) that mention non-believers, though not Islam in particular since Islam did not exist at the time when the prayers were written. There is, for instance, the line in the hymn “Tentheenou”, which is chanted at the beginning of the praises, where we say: “Let God arise and let all His enemies be scattered and let all that hate His holy name flee from before His face.” This is well after we acknowledge our own sinfulness and disobedience, but it is still important that it is there. We are to distinguish ourselves from others not necessarily by not praying for them (of course, we should always pray for others), but by recognizing that what we believe is true and what they believe is false. This is Christianity. This is monotheism. The uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is God, even though they hate it and call it polytheism. If you want to pray for Muslims (and I think it’s good to do), pray for their conversion. Conversion is better than anything, and it will teach them the virtues that the already reproduced prayer has asked for them.

very good points and as a Coptic Christian, you know all too well what life is like under islam. We should be praying for our Christian brothers and sisters being killed in these places.

 

[Contarini]

IMHO, this is the type of relativism that is wrecking havoc in the Church. I know some will disagree with me.

Sure, because your reasons are extremely flimsy. You ought to seek better ones or change your opinion.

I mean seriously, coming to the Church that Jesus Christ himself founded only because it has the “fullness” of truth is not compelling enough. Lots of people can live with less fullness, especially since there are so many rules in the Catholic Church.

But the catch is that if you believe the Catholic Church has the fullness of faith and don’t join it, you cannot be saved (according to Vatican II). You can only “live with less fullness” if you are doing so in good faith. So a person who chose to “live with less fullness” would be cutting themselves off from God, according to Catholic teaching. (I may possibly be doing this. Pray for me.)

And you haven’t shown how praying for Muslims to increase in certain virtues during Ramadan promotes “relativism.” There’s just no logic to your claim at all.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

And herein lies the ultimate problem with this reasoning: There are Christians among you (Byzantines, Ethiopians, Syrians, Copts, etc.) who fast already much more than the Muslims do, with prayer to the one Holy Trinity, and yet you would rather learn your spirituality from the Muslims.)

As you know, I disagree with the rest of your post, but I entirely agree with this part.

Western Christians need to become much more aware of the spiritual disciplines of Eastern Christianity, and of the fact that most of the admirable things in Islam derive from Eastern Christianity in particular and have been preserved there more fully than in the West.

When I taught history in a state university in New Jersey (an area with a lot of Catholics, many of them non-practicing or poorly catechized), I pointed out during a discussion of the Five Pillars that Christians fast during Lent. A Catholic student was extremely puzzled by this, and understandably, given that the “fasting” now consists of not eating meat once a week during Lent.

Edwin

 

[TrueLight]

Sure, because your reasons are extremely flimsy. You ought to seek better ones or change your opinion.

There’s just no logic to your claim at all.

I have to say that reading your snotty responses really helps me to grow in virtue. Thank you.